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Collector Forums
The General Forum The Real Chatham Roof Line |
Author | Topic: The Real Chatham Roof Line |
RFoster |
posted 10-07-98 06:43 AM Eastern Time Zone
While touring the Cape Cod lighthouses, on John's 1998 Reunion Tours, I was asked, by Paul Brady, to hold the "Harbour Lights Chatham" in my hands in front of Chatham Lighthouse, so that Paul could get a picture of the two together. I was nervous because there was a very strong wind blowing and I thought for sure that I was going to drop the HL piece. While holding as steady as I could I noticed that the real lighthouse has only one hip in the roof above the main entrance whereas the HL piece has three (one above the main entrance and one above each window on either side of the door). Is there a reason as to why the HL replica is not like the real light? All pictures that I have seen (even the old postcards) of this light also have only one hip above the main entrance. |
JChidester |
posted 10-07-98 12:05 PM Eastern Time Zone
Here's the photo that Ron was referring to: This station formerly had twin towers. One of the towers was moved to become Nauset Beach lighthouse (replacing the three sisters). As for the roofline - two possible explanations, one-it's pictured in an earlier time when that roofline was like that, or two-the roofline is intentionally made incorrect as a means of identifying copies made from the HL model. I'll do some more digging this week while I'm still at the Cape. John |
rsmcn |
posted 10-24-98 02:11 PM Eastern Time Zone
Yes John, have you gotten the irrefutable, corporate approved, answer to the roofline contradiction? |
RFoster |
posted 10-27-98 01:45 PM Eastern Time Zone
OK, John??, Harbour Lights?? Harry, Kim, Bill??? Will someone give us the real facts about the Chatham roof-line. I have searched all of my 50 books on lighthouses, and numerous post cards, but all of the pictures that I find of Chatham have only "one hip" in the roof above the front door (see the picture that John posted above concerning this subject). Someone out there knows why the Harbour Lights version of Chatham has three hips in the roof-line. Would you please share this information with all of us collectors. |
PamBrian |
posted 10-28-98 07:53 AM Eastern Time Zone
Woooooooooow. Does this mean there could be another "Coquille River" in our future ? |
JChidester |
posted 10-28-98 08:33 AM Eastern Time Zone
Kim Andrews replies to my query:
quote: John [This message has been edited by JChidester.] |
Rod Watson |
posted 10-29-98 12:23 PM Eastern Time Zone
OK guys, looks like the master has to take this one over.....Chatham resolved! First the summary, then the details: Now for the painful, boring details: (1) What we now call the "front" of the building (ocean side or eastern elevation) used to be what appears as the "rear" of the building in earlier days. The main entrance doorway was on the western elevation (away from ocean) with a medium size entry porch. This is where it gets interesting... (5) If you happened upon an old photo or postcard of what USED to appear to be the front of the building (away from ocean) you would notice that it had a large center gable (like the ocean side), but you would also see 2 additional small wall dormers and windows to the left and right of the gable! these 3 gables were actually then on the western side of the building NOT the ocean side! It would have been very hard to understand that if you didn't realize the front became the back, and vica versa, and really compared the aspects of the photos VERY closely. Now for the supporting info: (1) below is a link to a site called "The Cape Cod Lighthouse Homepage" with some old photo views of the light. The first 2 photos are the ocean side (the "new front" of the building), while the 3rd shot is of the "old front" of the building (away from ocean). You can easily see how the confusion could have been made. (The 4th shot is the ocean side again) Now, if you use the above 3 factors as references in the photos linked below, along with your HL sculpture for comparison, you will eventually see that it was the wrong side of the building that had the 3 dormers, and were later covered up and deleted when the salt-box style addition was added. The ocean side of the building never had the the extra dormers. The Cape Cod Lighthouse Homepage (Chatham): Keep in mind this entire series of assumptions have not been verified by any historian, etc. I just compared a large quantity of photos and postcards and created a "timeline" of what I assumed had occured as an Architect. I toured the inside of the Coast Guard Station and climbed the tower last year and have alot of close up photos that helped too. I have heard a rumor of a "seasoned citizen" local woman whom also swore that there were never any dormers on that side too. I think I am at least close to being right. It is of course possible that the ocean side had the 3 dormers just like the rear at one time. The photos and postcards go back pretty far though, and I dont know why they would have eliminated them so early in the life of the structure without modifying the rear ones too. Climbing in the attic to see the rafter layout would make it obvious if they were there at one time. Any volunteers? Of course if I am proven to be wrong, then you have permission to chain me up at Execution Rocks for the day while I whimper for forgiveness. Thank you, thank you...my work here is complete. -RodW[This message has been edited by Rod Watson (edited 11-12-98).] |
rsmcn |
posted 10-29-98 01:09 PM Eastern Time Zone
Wow. What a marketing opportunity. Keep using old (very old) photographs of a light and its keepers house. Use that old photograph as the basis for creating the model of a Harbour Lights piece rather than more recent photographs. VIOLA! Instantly the issued piece is the "Then" version and another piece can be created reflecting the "Now" appearance. Conceivable every HL can now be like the Morris Island duo - Then & Now. |
JChidester |
posted 10-29-98 04:19 PM Eastern Time Zone
Kinda like a pit bull, ol' Lightning Rod - just sic him on to a project and he tears it up one side and down another. LOL - Great research and a good job of reporting on it, Rod. You deserve the applause you hear in the background. (fix yourself up an audio loop, please.) John [Chatham roof lines fixed cheap] |
RFoster |
posted 10-29-98 06:44 PM Eastern Time Zone
I'm not sure whether to thank Rod or not. My head is spinning and I'm not sure if I'm facing east or west. One thing is for sure, I'm going to take two Tylenol, go to bed, and read this again in the morning. Seriously, I appreciate the effort (and genius) that went into this theory. Thank you Rod. There's still one thing that I don't understand. Where are all the pictures that Bill took of Chatham before Harbour Lights decided to sculpt it. It's hard to imagine someone didn't catch this when comparing Bill's photos with the "old historic photo" that vanished. I'm thinking about cutting the tower off of my HL Chatham and placing it on the opposite side of the building to be more authentic. I'll let you all know how I make out. [This message has been edited by RFoster.] |
Rod Watson |
posted 10-30-98 03:53 AM Eastern Time Zone
Ron, New photos really dont help all that much when comparing the very, very old photos. The building has changed so much, and so many additions were added at different times that it is almost impossible to look at the rear of the buiding now (away from ocean) with an old photo of the rear in hand and believe that it is the same building. Very little of the original rear elevation still exists. It would be very, very easy to see the old postcard and assume that it was the ocean side of the building. -RodW[This message has been edited by Rod Watson (edited 11-12-98).] |
Mike Richards |
posted 10-30-98 08:20 AM Eastern Time Zone
Rod, I found your treatise on this subject to be very interesting, informative and well-done - who cares if it's accurate? :-) Seriously, you obviously spent some time and effort on this and I enjoyed the read. Mike |
RMau |
posted 10-30-98 03:22 PM Eastern Time Zone
Rod, great sleuth work to provide us all an answer. Thanks. |
LamarB |
posted 11-01-98 06:29 PM Eastern Time Zone
Rod, Thanks for your thorough research and well written response to the Chatham question. Lamar |
RFoster |
posted 11-02-98 04:02 PM Eastern Time Zone
Well Rod, I've rested up and have read your post about the Chatham roof-line several times while refering back to the Chatham site with the early pictures. Excellent sleuth work indeed. Thanks again for taking the time (and patience) to get to the bottom (or is that the top) of this. Sometimes my brain is alittle slow to catch up, the pictures helped immensely. Now, does anyone have some glue so I can re-attach the tower on my HL piece?? Ron |
Rock |
posted 11-02-98 04:13 PM Eastern Time Zone
All of this is very interesting...and the other day at a collectibles show, I found an old postcard of Portland Breakwater, ME...it used to have an attached house! |
Art |
posted 11-02-98 07:09 PM Eastern Time Zone
Hey Ron, Check in with John. He may have some superglue left over from his Rose Island project. -Art |
PamBrian |
posted 11-03-98 08:09 AM Eastern Time Zone
I have a question on this. In reading through it, I think the bottom line is that HL "goofed". Am I correct ? I've been watching this thread to see how all you "old timers" responded, and was somewhat surprised that no one seemed concerned that the piece does appear to be accurate in it's authenticity. Is that because you tend to want the lighthouse itself to be highly accurate and the buildings themselves are less important, or are there other precedents that make this a non-issue ? I guess I'm comparing it to Coquille River where it was yanked because it wasn't accurate. Don't misunderstand, I'm not being critical. I'm simply trying to understand, from a collectors viewpoint, how one values accuracy in a piece. Thanks,
|
rsmcn |
posted 11-03-98 05:16 PM Eastern Time Zone
I agree with you Pam, that a goof occured. Although Rod Watson did a grand and imposing study on the *possible how* it happened, we all should be concerned with *why* did Y&A *let* it happen. There was an assumed reputation of accuracy in the pieces issued with the HL name attached. All those more recent photographs ignored and a piece made based on an old photograph (that cannot now be found)? Not to discredit the work of Rod W, but there are some hard core collectors who believe that HL can do no wrong. I am not suggesting the piece be discontinued, but when a mistake has been made own up to it. - old (missing) photo? really! |
PamBrian |
posted 11-04-98 08:08 AM Eastern Time Zone
Sorry....need to proof better. That should have said: "...was somewhat surprised that no one seemed concerned that the piece does NOT appear to be accurate in it's authenticity." |
Todd Shorkey |
posted 11-04-98 09:57 AM Eastern Time Zone
I don't think any of us "hard core" collectors have ever said that Harbour Lights never makes mistakes. I think it is just the opposite, as evidenced by the posts in this forum. We tend to be a very picky group when it comes to errors, variations, and the like. I also feel that Harbour Lights "owns up" to thier mistakes when they happen. Look at the discontinuation of Coquille, the changing of color on Beavertail, Round Island, and others. Creating a HL sculpture is a difficult process involving much effort and research. A process that Bill, IMHO, doesn't take lightly. Not all pieces are sculpted as they appear today either. If an old photo was used to sculpt Chatham, thats why it doesn't look the same as today. It's not necessarily a mistake. I don't feel anyone was trying o " ignore" current photos, it could just have been the look HL wanted for the piece. Morris Island-then couldn't have been made if it were not for old photographs. -Todd [Sometimes older is better] |
Rod Watson |
posted 11-04-98 10:59 AM Eastern Time Zone
For everyone's general curiosity, I did forward the information from my post to Harbour Lights to evaluate. I think we should at least have the courtesy of giving them sufficient time to rummage through the info with some aspirin before we expect (or start a debate over) a statement concerning their possible actions or lack thereof. They have only had the info for a few days. As Todd has noted, it *has* been the serious collectors who questioned the sculptures' accuracy on Coquille River, Barnegut GLOW, Minot's Ledge and Barnegut's water color, Beavertail and Round Island's building colors, as well as flag labeling on Highland, Admiralty Head, and Presque Isle. (not to mention the debates on Coquille GLOW, production of Rose Island society versions for everyone, society membership size, etc, etc.) HL responded to each of these instances, and I am sure they will on this debate also in due time (whether we will eventually agree or disagree with their comments will be a future debate, I'm sure). I doubt that Spoontiques or CSC, etc. has collectors who are as critical as we are concerning accuracy issues. If there are, it doesn't show. Keep in mind that a possible response could easily be that I'm a *kook* because they found the old photo and it DID have dormers on the front...in which case, I'd be off to Execution Rock for the night. -RodW[This message has been edited by Rod Watson (edited 11-12-98).] |
JChidester |
posted 11-12-98 12:45 PM Eastern Time Zone
Well Ron and Rod, you've really done it now: |
Rod Watson |
posted 11-12-98 04:20 PM Eastern Time Zone
I guess you can officially call us MUDD#2A and MUDD#2B now. -RodW[This message has been edited by Rod Watson (edited 11-12-98).] |
thelgtkpr |
posted 11-13-98 07:50 AM Eastern Time Zone
Now that Chatham is retired maybe you guys should lead a campaign to remodel the real lighthouse to match the Harbour Lights piece. Just kidding !!----good job-well done [This message has been edited by thelgtkpr (edited 11-13-98).] |
rscroope |
posted 11-13-98 08:16 AM Eastern Time Zone
WOW!!! I guess Bill Harnsberger finally got his wish for a retirement. Nice job, Rod & Ron. This whole episode of research and reporting by you; and the conclusion by the HL retirement has been extremely interesting and informative. Both of you should be awarded a honorary 'LIGHTNING ROD' for your work. ------------------ |
Rich Boyes |
posted 11-13-98 11:59 AM Eastern Time Zone
Congratulations to Rod and Ron for their pursuit of the history of the Chatham light. Thanks to HL for continuing their record of accuracy and integrity even when it means terminating a production lighthouse and losing sales. Such actions by collectors and company only serve to enhance the credibility of the HL line as a collectible. |
RFoster |
posted 11-13-98 08:19 PM Eastern Time Zone
Incredible!! IF...There were no John Chidester Reunion Tours we wouldn't have been at Chatham Light in the first place... IF...Paul Brady hadn't wanted to take the picture of HL-172 with the real thing... IF...Ron Foster hadn't held the light for Paul and posted the question on this forum... IF...Lightning Rod Watson hadn't dug into the history of this light... Thanks to all of the above and to those of you who took the time to voice your opinions. IF...You hadn't voiced your opinions then Harbour Lights may not have had the chance to respond to it's family of collectors... The real ones to thank are Harbour Lights for their dedication to historical accuracy and for listening to it's large family of dedicated collectors. "THANK YOU HARBOUR LIGHTS" Ron |
Kat |
posted 11-13-98 10:23 PM Eastern Time Zone
Way to go Rod, Ron, Paul, John, and HL for all your dedication and meticulous research to bring to light the mystery of Chatham light!! I applaud you all for your appreciation of accuracy, history, and the real truth about our beautiful lighthouses. As a collector I couldn't be happier with the retirement; as a lover of history, the story behind the Chatham light and the HL sculpture difference was facinating to me. Kat Waterson |
JChidester |
posted 11-13-98 10:29 PM Eastern Time Zone
One more BIG "IF" Ron... If Harbour Lights hadn't donated Chatham to give away on the bus tour...
|
engbrady |
posted 11-14-98 08:31 AM Eastern Time Zone
There are about 20 more 'ifs' involved in the uncovering of the Chatham roof. 'If' John Chidester hadn't given me the Chatham and one other lighthouse to give away on my bus while he kept 2 others. 'If' I hadn't awarded Sean the lighthouse for co-winning the "draw your favorite lighthouse contest" pictured below. What 'if' Kat Waterson, who drew the other winning picture (also pictured below), had chosen the Chatham instead of the one that she did (ladies first). Would I have asked to borrow it since I didn't know her as well as I did Sean. 'If' I hadn't asked to borrow the Chatham lighthouse as we were heading to it and 'if' I hadn't ask Ron to help me by holding it, since Sean was taking a nap (that should clear Sean of his part, but he does own the single most famous Chatham now). And 'if' Ron, while waiting for me to get my camera powered, hadn't looked at the two together and said, "Oooh, Paul, it is different! Look at the roof line." And finally, as stated so well by others, 'if' Harbour Lights didn't care about their collectors (but they DO!), they wouldn't have both furnished the Chatham to give away and stopped the production after the research (Rod) proved the roof line to be inaccurate. I personally would like to join Ron in a big: "THANK YOU HARBOUR LIGHTS" Sean's NPL "My favorite lighthouse drawing" http://www.harbourlights.com/brady/NPLsean.gif Kat's Hatteras "My favorite lighthouse drawing" http://www.harbourlights.com/brady/KatsHat.gif Pretty great drawings for riding on a bus and only having a small pencil (golf course size). Paul L Brady [Corrected Kat's last name from Watson to Waterson - she's NOT related to Rod.] [This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 11-14-98).] |
engbrady |
posted 11-15-98 09:59 PM Eastern Time Zone
Sorry Kat for misspelling your name and John it wasn't because I was thinking of the Watsons. As you know I work in the newsroom of a CBS affiliate television station and it is very difficult for me to type ER. |
Art |
posted 11-15-98 10:08 PM Eastern Time Zone
Paul, maybe if more people joined our Thursday night chats ER's ratings would drop, and Kat's name could then be spelled without flinching! -Art |
Kat |
posted 11-17-98 08:26 PM Eastern Time Zone
Watson - Waterson, hmmmm, looks very similar there...kinda like another Chatham roof line story, its those suttle "er" differences we HL collectors relish in discovering :-) Don't ya just love Harbour Lights and those wild and crazy collectors!! |
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