This seems to be a hot topic in the General Forum. Given the choice of purchasing a Harbour Light LE or GLOW at regular price or on "sale" at half price or even 25% off, which would you choose?
Given the fact that a shop has Harbour Lights on sale and someone will be buying them at sale price anyway,that someone might as well be me as anybody else.I would grab the bargain and have more money in my pocket, perhaps to purchase more Harbour Lights.

The Lightkeeper
Mike

I'd have to agree with you Mike. I don't have the income some of our fellow forumites have so I have to be very careful what I pick to purchase. If I can get a deal, especially 50% off, that means more Harbour Lights for my collection. Like you say, someone's going to buy them, it might as well be me.

Dale

Lets see if I understand some of this. Some collectors will not buy HL at any discount? Does that include your longtime favorite dealer who offers an employee discount to you? In this case the dealer takes the bite not HL. What about a dealer going out of business, their lease runs out at the end of the week and his inventory will be in the trash bin after that. A blanket statement "I would never buy HL at a discount." seems unrealistic. I don't think we should boycott dealer during bad economic times because they are offering a discount trying to save their store. If I can buy a piece I want below list I may. But I won't buy a piece because it is below list. Personally, I can't afford to pass-up a good deal for something I like at anytime. Remember HL already has their money from the dealer, it is the dealer who is taking the loss, not HL. No matter what price LE's sell for they are still limited. A good deal in this life is hard to find let alone pass-up. But, thats my opinion as a newbie to this whole thing.

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bigdragon

Actually it is the collectible that takes the bite not the dealer since the dealer is still getting his money back unless they discount it by more than 50%.

I meant what I said…. I don't buy discounted Harbour Lights from dealers...

John made some really good points in his comments, like no recourse if you need to return them. I have seen a lot of these stores discounting light over the years and a lot of them are chipped or at the very least clicked.

I also won't buy from a dealer that has their shelves crammed so full they are sitting on each other. If the aren't already damaged they are just waiting to be damaged. Before I got caught up (got them all) and started buying on autoship... I always asked if they had one back in the stock room and took that one over any that had been handled out in the store.

I don't buy damaged goods I figure if the lighthouse ever gets damaged it is my fault..

Paul it seems you`re the exception and not the rule on this. If a vote was taken of forumites, my opinion is, you`d probably have more that like a bargain over the ones that are purists for collecting.

terry

This may be my last post to the forums! I am so pissed off after reading this thread that I will need to cool off before I deside if I'm going to even look here again or not.

I have an income of about $35,000. a year and it is very hard for me to buy the HL's that I want because I just don't have that kind of money. I am on an autoship with my dealer. And with the number of new pieces that are being put out each year it is draining my finances so that there is no money to buy older HL's. Unless I happen to get lucky and find a good deal every now and then. Such as last June, while on a trip out-of-town when I just happened apond a dealer who was going out-of-bisness. He had 31 HL's instock all at 50% off (such a sale I had never seen before). I bought 28 of them. The other 3 I already had. A week later on my way back throu that little town, the store was gone! Now the just of this story is that I would not have thies pieces now if it hadn't been for that sale! And I was, and still am very very very happy with my good fortune to have found that little store going out-of-bisness.

And just two days ago, I was the happy ebay winner of a LE HL that retailed for $79. My winning bid was $20.75 (thats 75% off).

I guess now I should watch out for the Harbour Light Police to come and put me in jail for doing such a harrable thing!! At least thats the way some pepole have made this thread sound !!!!!!!!

Stephanie

PS.
If I have been out of line, I'm sorry. But I just had to get that off my chest.

I still don't see how the collectable takes a bite. A LE is a LE and Joe blow doesn't know how much you paid for it unless you start bragging about it. I believe that it is the limited number and popularity that sets the price or value, not what you pay for it. Like I said I'm new to this and willing to learn whats hot and whats not. Frankly, I can't see a trend in what sets the price for a retired piece. Is there a secret formula?

Chuck

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bigdragon

A topic I have had more than a nodding acquaintance with! I have collected over 190 LE HLs in the past three years. I would venture that better than 50% were purchased at less than retail. Simple economics, if I didn't buy so many at reduced prices I wouldn't have the collection I do!

Discounted HLs were purchased thru Ebay, the Marketplace Forum, dealer discounts for being a loyal customer, 50% going out-of-business sales and finally thru tips from right here on the Forums.

Several years ago forum members would post stores, phone #s etc. Then as stated here we were asked not to list the store or #. I posted info about a year ago regarding a store that I knew was going out of business, indicating that forum members could E-mail me for the info. Well, my post was yanked before anyone had a chance to read it. So the rules regarding this seemed to changed as now it seems we can receive E-mails if forum members want the info.

I simply wanted my fellow forum members to benefit as I had from earlier posts listing these discounts. But very quickly I learned that at least when I posted it was a big No-No. I respect the wishes of the people moderating these Forums although I may not agree.

In regard to Paul's statements, yes I did get a chipped Brandt Point from a store going out of business in CA. But I also purchased a damaged Fort Niagara thru the Forums. There is always a risk involved when buying sight unseen.

Bottom line: I love a bargain or sale, in everything I purchase, I always will!

Donna

Discounting, Dumping, whatever you want to call it has, does and always will effect the long-term value of any collectible. I watched my brother suffer through this with David Winter Cottages. Like us, he had an extensive collection and paid good money for each piece because the value trend showed them to be a good investment. Then guess what? Dealers started dumping at greatly discounted rates. eBay was flooded with them and it seemed like a buyers paradise! Sure, the curios got filled, money was saved, but at whose expense. We watched a blooming collectible quickly turn into nothing more than a pretty piece of giftware. The value completely dropped and you were lucky to get 1 bid at auction. I watched my brother struggle to get $10 for a piece that he had paid $90 for a year earlier. The giftware buyers flourished, the collectible value died! I don't know what has happened since but I learned a lesson on what discounting can do to effect the long term value of a collectible.

I enjoy a bargain as much as anyone but I don't go looking for them. I saw what happened to my brother and I don't want that to happen to me!! I have said in the past that I collect HL because I like them. That's true, but I'd be lying if I said I don't care about the investment value as well. I have learned VAST amounts of information on the hobby from John and Paul and I will always stand behind them and their opinions 100%!!!!!! They as well as many others on this forum are some of the most knowledgeable collectors I have ever met. If they say it's so, then I believe them.

True collectors are like flies and week old road kill. It may look bad and smell bad but the longer it's there, the more it attracts.

Please, I am not discounting (pardon the pun) anyone opinion and look forward to my collection going up in value. I am trying to learn from others with more experience than me in this area. In your brothers case was it the company's fault for producing so many? Like HL does with the GLOWS and LLOM? The dealer can't sell whats not there, hence the LE. I think I read somewhere in the forums that HL dropped their edition sizes down from 10,000 to ~6000. Wouldn't that tend to make the piece more valuable once it was retired? In the end the piece is only worth what someone will pay for it. I have seen HL177 Alcatraz go for $85 and $175. What is the right price and how is it determined on the market? Because, I don't have a clue.

Chuck

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bigdragon

Stephanie,

I too live on a limited salary (city employees know what I'm talking about). That is exactly why I avoid using autoship. By limiting spending and avoiding getting pieces that I wouldn't miss if I didn't have, it frees up funds to get the pieces I do want. Bargains then become a bonus and not a necessity.

Someday I hope to enjoy autoship, maybe when I dig up that big 'ol nugget. For now I live with my budget and not over it.

Stephanie! Please don't disappear! I think most of us understand your opinions and share them. The Fog Signal Building is where most of us tend to disagree.

Digger makes a good point about John and Paul. I have learned a great deal from their posts here too. But I can't say the I agree 100% of everything they say or post here. 90% maybe. But I do know that they are indeed good people with a lot of wisdom when it comes to HL's. I do understand their point about not posting store names here but if I find a good deal that some other forumites might benefit from I sure would be willing to let them know. I guess I would have to just e-mail them. I wish I had the income to be a purist. There are a lot of dealers that are playing by the "rules of Harour Lights" that my loose a sale because of discounters.
Part of the problem with prices has to be the 10,000 editions and the GLOWS though, so all of the blame can not be put on the discounters IMHO..

But I also understand those that have bought at discount to fill in the holes in thier collections.I would not have nearly 90 HL's if I only bought at retail or above. I love these lights and want as many as I can afford. And that means buying some discounted LE's. I sorry if that offends someone but that's the only way I'll get all the LE's I want.

Dale

Hi Chuck,

Boy I'm on the soapbox tonight. Run for your lives, the gravedigger is on a rampage!

I am sure everyone agrees that the lower edition size effects the future value of any collectible. Sort of falls into that supply versus demand category. But no matter how many are made, they are only worth what someone is willing to spend for it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think prices realized are what determine current value. So it makes sense that if something is selling at 50% less than it was a year ago, then the value is going to reflect this decrease.

Well, this discussion is realy interesting. Who here wouldn't buy a new car at 50% off suggested retail. If I knew of a dealer that was doing this and refused to tell, then SHAME ON ME" because I would be unfair to the rest of the forum members. Now the forum members that were interested in this could now buy a brand new car and be happy. The forum members that have their principals about buying 50% off for cars could just sit back and ignore the message. Correct me if I'm wrong or too young to fully understand (59 years old),but, I don't really understand the difference between a 50% off new car and a 50% off Harbour Lights. Harbour Lights has made their money and is not in the secondary market business(1/2 retail price is what HL sells to the dealer for) and produces only a certain number of LE pieces. Once they have retired this LE, they have made their profit. They should not care what a dealer sells his pieces for if that dealer is going out of business or discontinuing the HL line, and if they do, then HL should be willing to buy back these pieces so the dealer does not have to sell at 50% off(which is their cost for the piece). If you are one of the few who would not buy a 50% off HL, then I can assume you would not buy a car at 50% sticker and I doubt very much if you were offered a 2002 Mercedes at half price that you wouldn't buy it. What's the difference between a car and a HL? I feel sympathy towards HL about the collectable market and the recent slump in sales but I feel this slump in the HL sales was brought on by overproduction of limited editions causing this slump and the introduction of GLOWS. Did HL ask me how I felt about overproducing and GLOWS? Heck no! I am loyal to HL and will continue to buy each LE piece because I feel they are the most authentic reproductions on the market but why should I refuse to buy a 50% off piece if I were given the chance? Anybody out there that does not want a good deal, contact me and I will sell some of my extra pieces at either full retail or full secondary market prices. Excuse me if I stepped on anybodys toes but these are my feelings on this subject and anytime I can find a piece that I am looking for, I will try to buy it at the best price I can negotiate. This is just the rantings of an old retired Coastie that is always in the market for a deal. Anybody that's been to Viet Nam and says they haven't dickered is forgetting what free enterprise is all about.

Rich

[This message has been edited by flacoastie (edited 01-24-2002).]

Good luck on your car collection, Rich!!

Thanks Paul. Anybody for a Mercedes?

Rich

Boy or boy....these forums is like going to school. I am constantly learning from all of this. So HL sells the pieces to dealers at 50% of list? Huh, I never knew that. So in reality, if a dealer is liquidating their inventory by selling the lights at 50%, they are not really losing anything, except the profit that they would have gained if they sold a piece at the SRP?

So what's all the fuss. Dealers complain about excess inventory, mainly due reasons already mentioned in this thread...... So let them sell it off, get rid of the excess inventory and lets get back to business selling HLs at the new lower edition sizes which should take care of the whole supply vs demand thing.

Christopher

So what's all the fuss. Dealers complain about excess inventory, mainly due reasons already mentioned in this thread...... So let them sell it off, get rid of the excess inventory and lets get back to business selling HLs at the new lower edition sizes which should take care of the whole supply vs demand thing.

Christopher


Amen, You said it !


Well I have cooled off now. Don't get me wrong, I love my HL's and I have learned so much here on the forums. And I was realy getting an education with this thread and enjoyed reading everyones opinion. Untill I felt that I was being scolded for even looking for a deal.

Flacoastie and Cavevader,
you both realy said what I wanted too. Only you both did a much better job of it.
Thanks and dido !!!

Stephanie

Stephanie,

Glad to see you posting again. Aren't these forums great. You can sound off in the fog signal building and stand on your convictions and everyone respects each other. I haven't seen any name calling or attacks on anyones character. Just opinions being stated about a topic. You can't find that very often in the world today.
These guys are the greatest. Even if I don't agree with them all the time. Keep on posting your ideas, opinions, and convictions. It helps make the forums what they are.

Dale

What's the fuss??

Don't see how the collectible takes a bite?

Put on your driving gloves Dagwood cuz we're gonna take a little ride..

Suppose all new LE's suddenly went for half-price - what would that do to the value of HL as Collectibles and what would that mean for *your* collection.

Say it with me... "Everybody likes a deal."

What Paulie is saying (if I may be so bold to spin on this a bit) is 'think of the big picture or long term view' and don't just think of your pocketbook at the moment. Hard to do? You betcha.

say it with me... "Everybody likes a deal."

The big picture view sez: when individual HL models are devalued through half-price sales, a few things happen. The entire line is devalued - maybe not instantaneously, but over time. Why? Because it helps create the *perception* that a) Harbour Lights models really aren't worth what you paid for 'em; and b) there is not a demand and dealers can't get rid of them, and therefore, they are not an 'in-demand' collectible.

See ... a key thing about this collectible stuff is the psychological perception of value - the want, the 'I gotta have it', the burning little thingie in the back of your noodle that makes you spend your lunch money on a hunk of painted plaster. When something comes along that causes that burning little thingie to go away - like a different neuron firing that sez: "hey maybe this one ain't worth so much cuz there's a bunch of other ones being dumped at half price" - whatever might cause a person (maybe not you) to start questioning why they have that HL itch it is a bad thing for the *idea* of these models as Collectibles. Never ever second guess the power of that idea! Its what makes the whole thing go.

If you 'hurt' the psychological basis of desire through a perception of lesser value, then there's the potential - if enough people start to see things this way - that the whole house of cards is gonna come tumbling down. (And yes, dearies - it *is* a house of cards - if collectively we don't instantiate the shared illusion of value then kiss bye bye to the Collectible concept built on manufactured rarity cuz its going out the door.)

Do not for a minute underestimate the stock folks put in these little models having value - both desire artsy value *and* desire dollar value. And yes I know there are many who proclaim 'I'm not interested in the resale - I just love the cute little models'. Well I'll tell you a secret - I don't believe it for a minute. Why? Because the artsy value and the dollar value are connected in your mind when you make that purchase.

I don't believe for a minute that most of us aren't aware of that credit card bill or those candy bar lunches cause you just spent $300 for 4 new LE's last month. Don't fool yourself - the whole idea of a Collectible is something that is desirable - and why is it desirable? - because there ain't that many of 'em and yep I got one and in a few years or so there won't be any left to buy and the one I got is gonna be worth more cause you can't find 'em for sale in the store and this cool collection of lighthouses (which I really love) is worth more than I paid for it!!! This notion is intrinsic to Why We Collect.

(and by the way that's why you'll never get real satisfaction from collecting Glows - even cute ones - cuz in the back of your mind you know - it is a massed produced thing over which no real desire based on the psychological combo of scarcity + worth can ever accumulate. (Yeah - I know, Kimmy don't like me saying that stuff, but if the emperor walks around without his shorts...:-)

So anyway - when the dollar value starts going down it helps breed the perception of less worth. Its not you and the cheap model at the moment - sure you're excited - say it with me... But the cumulative effect - particularly on the people who paid *full price* yesterday for it - that effect is a negative one on the *entire* line - including the secondary market. Someone buys a bunch of half price LEs and then can afford to sell at 75% of retail on eBay and make a nice little profit. And then we all whine and moan about the drop in prices and general devaluation of our Limited Edition Collectibles. And the next thing ya know another guy is getting out and selling off.

And if you think the lower edition sizes are gonna help overcome the fall-out of half-price sales, guess again. The lower edition sizes are the real market against which the half-price sale impacts.

Warm air + cool water = foglights
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[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 03-12-2002).]

Great thoughts on the decline of collectibles values. I agree with you 100%. But what really caused it? There are several things that jump to my mind. The collectible shops jumping on the bandwagon during the recent "lighthouse phase", Harbour Lights overproducing to meet this jump in demands(both dealers and collectors) and GLOWS. I can't fault HL for wanting to increase production to meet demand for their dealers and collectors. This is what enterprise is all about. I can't blame the collectible shops for wanting to carry the "hottest" collectible line in their shops. And, I also can't blame the introduction of GLOWS. I don't own any myself (except the 2 in the stamp set) because I want strictly LE and will miss a lunch or two to buy a LE, but, I know there is a need for GLOWS to complete collections when the same LE is to pricey. We (the collector)have gotten ourselves into this kettle of fish by wanting to buy these pieces of plaster and now how will we get out of this fish broth?

The collectible market has already started the fix to our problems by decreasing the demand for lighthouses and not buying all the HL on the dealers shelves. Harbour Lights will help by decreasing production because the demand is now back to the original 5500 production requirements. HL will hopefully continue to bring out less LE pieces each year and also hopefully SLOW DOWN the GLOW market by introducing less of these each year. I haven't seen the GLOW decrease yet but I hope it starts really soon. Now finally the topic of this forum discussion: Harbour Lights at 50% off. I begrudge no one for buying a lighthouse at half price. I myself have bought several when the opportunity was there. I also have bought several lighthouses at secondary market prices to even the scale out. There is a glut of overproduced HL models on the shelves of the long time HL dealers and also the "jump on the bandwagon" dealers. Let's get rid of this glut and get back to the original 5500 production rate and stay there. If this takes 50% sales to do it, then let's do it and those that are fortunate enough to take advantage of this opportunity, all the more power to them. The faster this glut is diminshed, the quicker we will get back to normal and the faster our collections "will increase in value" for whatever reasons.

I love these forums and all they stand for. What a great bunch of fellow collectors we have on them.

Rich

Tim thanks for telling me how everyone thinks. I sure am glad there is at at least one person on this forum that knows me better than I do.


terry

Everyone knows that I am a meek, mild mannered individual, who hates to be in the middle of controversy.

However, I have a few comments that will give everyone something to think about.


If HL maintained the 5500 limit on all LE's, would not all the shelfs be more than half empty instead of half off.

If HL decided not to make GLOWS then would the shelfs be a picture of display instead of dismay.

If ALL collectibles companies would live the collectibility of their product as they promote it, then more may not be better.

If ALL marketing people were collectors then maybe a new marketing book would be written.

What would happen if E would have stayed with Mail instead of Bay.

If all of the above took place we might not be having this discussion.

Maybe we are shooting arrows at opinions instead of the target.


I love you all but this isn't my first rodeo.

Jake

[This message has been edited by jakescol (edited 01-25-2002).]

There have been many ideas and opinions expressed here both pro and con. And although I may not agree 100% with some of the cons, I do understand where you are coming from and why.

But the fact is that these 50% sales are out there (like it or not)! And they WILL be bought at that 50% price, whether it be by a Collector or just someone who thought it was pretty and affordable. So why should we not share this information so that we at least know that we are helping our Fellow Collectors get in on a good deal.

The only true solution that I can foresee (IMHP) would be for the Harbour Lights Company to contact these 50% dealers and buy back their stock. Thus retiring them at a lower number then the run. I know that this would cost the company some money but would it not be in their best long-term interest? And most surreally in the interest of the true collector?

I am open to your opinions, so lets hear them!

Stephanie

Now now Terry be nice

Tim, you make some very good points. Not everyone follows along these line exactly. And I am sure there are some that are not willing to admit that deep down you are right on the mark with them.

The bottom line for me is I love them and I will buy them because I have been there and I have seen the real thing and these are the best detailed replicas out there. If they go up in value great! If not oh well, I still love them. I sure feel better about my investment when the prices are going up and not down though. But then again I have filled in a lot of holes in my collection below retail lately.

The bottom line is if we keep buying them, Harbour Lights will keep making them. What the middle man does if beyond ours and even BY's ability to control fully.

Dale

I too was cought in the david winter fall.I think half price had a lot to do with it, but not as a sale.When media arts took over john hine,retail prices droped about 40% and that was the begining of the end.I have no chance of getting my money back most of my collection.I think H.L is too smart to let this happen.

don

Some other factors which may contribute to the "devaluation" of Harbour Lights:
1. Dealers who don't honor their contract and contribute the lighthouses that show up on E-Bay about 15 minutes after they are released and that are priced $20.00 or $30.00 cheaper than you just paid to your dealer.
2. The lack of knowledgeable Reps, or in our case, any Reps, who can go out and sell these wonderful models and let the dealers know what is new.
3. The perceived difficulty in "having then all". When I started in late 1997, there seemed to be at least a possibility that I might get them all. I know several folks who started about then and have just about achieved their goals. With the help of some good friends (thanks Kaiz) I have almost reached mine. Now with the number of new lights being released a year, the goal of having them all has become much more difficult for someone trying to start out.
So, with 50% sales, GLOWS, over production, E-Bay, and all these other woes where will we end up?
Jim
Johnson

[This message has been edited by JimJohnson (edited 01-25-2002).]

Normally I don't go in for psychobabble, but some of what Tim said hit the mark and helped clear up what my daughter (she collects Pocket Dragons) was trying to explain to me yesterday. It's all in the mind, only the mind. I asked my dealer what they thought about 50% sales. They don't like them at all because it hurts the product line and them. But, they understood why some stores were forced to have them at this time. I for one, prefer getting my fix through my dealer or the MarketPlace. For some reason I seem to trust the people who list there and with Sheriff John and Sheriff Paul on the lookout, us Texas folk are safe in that trust. I guess to sum up, I will take a deal if I see one, I'm a teacher and can hardly support my addiction as it is. However, I seem to hear about all these great deals afterwards so I don't need to worry about a lot of internal conflict that would come from buying at discount rates. With all this in mind, I promise everyone here that if I buy low, I will always sell high and keep to the true meaning of capitalism alive.(:

Happy Collecting

Chuck


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bigdragon

Why, thank ya kindly, there Chuck...


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Sheriff John

I remember when we had a thread where people could share their excitement over finding a deal on a HL. I still remember telling the story of how I stopped in at a little known dealer and saw Minot's Ledge sitting on the shelf. At that time a Minot's Ledge was selling for around $90-$100. I asked the clerk how much for that particular piece. She took it out of the case and looked at the price on the bottom and then told me it would be $49.95. I told her, "I'll take it."
After paying for it I quietly left the store and yelled, "YES!!!" when I was out in the parking lot.

A good part of the fun in shopping for collectibles is the thrill of the hunt and finding a great missing piece at a super deal. Some people hunt these bargins down at dealers while others watch eBay and the Marketplace. The better the deal, the bigger the smile on your face when you succeed in your quest.

I miss the thrill of hunting pieces down because I have them all except for the Coquille LE. Sometimes I stumble on a bargain I can't refuse and buy it to give as a gift. Sometimes I find an edition number I like better than the one I have and buy it with the intent of selling my other one.

A fine Jewish co-worker of mine use to tell me:

"Cheap is good but free is better!"

"Don't ever pay retail!"

He actually made a lot of sense. I will not fault anyone for buying a HL at a discounted price. I respect the views of those who frown against discounts claiming they cheapen the value of collections. It is part of the fun of building that collection that keeps us all interested in these wonderful collectibles. When all the deals are gone, and if the interest in HL's is still stronger than ever, the deals will dry up and our collections will be worth what they should be.

Bob

Here is my 2 cents,
E-bay and the Internet!

Back when HL got off the ground E-bay wasn't around and the Internet was still getting off the ground. There is not many items that couldn't be bought at a discount off E-bay or from a web site. Nobody needs a store front to operate a business this way, but why would anybody want to buy off the Internet? Hmmm.. Lets see, no store front, no rent, limited overhead, prices can be discounted and still make a profit. How can a store carrying HL compete? It's difficult, good customer service, customer loyalty, impulse purchases. But a person who has a limited amount to spend has to choose to pay full retail and have a smaller collection or buy discounted pieces online blindly and hope that they arrive in good condition. But once again how does dealer with a store front compete with a discounter? He can't, some dealers apparently give up on the line, get rid of their stock at a discount and fill the shelf space with something more profitable. Now if you couple that with HL's optimistic 10,000 edition sizes of a few years ago, a slowing economy you get discounted lighthouses on a few dealer shelves. Hopefully with HL reducing the edition sizes the problem will correct it's self as the excess drains off the shelves. Stores go out of business each day we can't do anything about that, that's life, clear out the stock at 50% off and it's over.
Looking at the bright side maybe a few people pick up a piece or two at a discount who might have been undecided to buy at full price and they get "The Bug" and start collecting. But I think that the Internet and the E-bay's of the world are changing the way we buy things and it's not over yet.

As Tim pointed out "who doesn't want a deal" would you buy a car from a dealer who has a cash back rebate or the dealer who expects you to pay full sticker price? I was looking for a negative scanner about 6 months ago, I found a Kodak scanner that I liked, it was $1000.00 from Kodak's online store I looked at their dealer list to see if any stores near me carried them (nothing close) but found a store in Indianapolis that had them for about $900.00 but If I bought from them I would have had to pay Indiana sales tax another 5%, I found a store in NY that had them for $800.00 and no tax for online out of state purchases. Am I crazy for buying it from the dealer in NY? I am just pointing out that the way we buy has changed forever, 10 years ago I most likely wouldn't have had much luck trying to buy something like that at a discount.

I am not saying that this is good for buyers or even bad for HL, I am just pointing out what I think is the underlying cause.

Mark
[This message has been edited by Mark Wagner (edited 01-25-2002).]

It's all in the mind. Why would Coquille be worth less today than three years ago when there are more collectors now than three years ago? Oops, I forgot there is a GLOW.

Yeppers - whatever intrinsic value these little models have comes from what we attribute to them.

People can value them more and value them less. Often one person's reasons are different than another's (internal value). The way the world (the marketplace) attempts to 'explain' that value is to quantify it - to give it a common denominator - with dollars.

When something that was 'explained' as selling $10 is now selling for $5 the message being sent is this (external) value is less. People's opinions are influenced by other people's opinions. If the external marketplace's opinion sez its worth less, that can have an impact on people's internal perception.

That is how selling for half-price can effect 'the Collectible'. It negatively influences the collective sense of worth.

Psychobabble? Psychobabble? Yep, thats marketing.

Nice badge, Festus... ;->
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P.S. doncha just love the FSB - the best signal to noise ratio in the CF.




[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 01-25-2002).]

Sheriff SaintWackoPaul '
Keep the Flame

I know this idea is a bit far-fetched but do you think that there could ever be any possibility that my previous idea could work? And if so, what would the possibilities be of Harbour Lights doing so? Zero or not?

The only true solution that I can foresee (IMHP) would be for the Harbour Lights Company to contact these 50% dealers and buy back their stock. Thus retiring them at a lower number then the run. I know that this would cost the company some money but would it not be in their best long-term interest? And most surreally in the interest of the true collector?

I believe that HL is willing to buy back their unsold stock in cases of dealers going out of business, but I think it is easier to sell everything at 50% off than to try to box up stuff and return it and get cash back from any supplier(s).

On some topics here in the fourms, I have flip-flopped my opinions more than a fish out of water, but on this I never will:

A contract is a contract.

That means to me if you signed on the dotted line saying you will sell Harbour Lights at Y&A specified price, you sell them at that price. If not you shouldn't be selling them at all.

There are dealers out there that play be the rules. They should get the buisness and the sales.

If you buy discounted products, that is your choice. I don't blame you for saving some money. I do however place much blame on the dealers who do not live up to thier word.

'nuff said

-Todd

Todd, I think alot of dealers who are doing the sales have no intention of ever selling HLs again.While I agree with you that a contract is a contract, what do these dealers have to loose?


terry

Mark, you hit the nail on the head with part of your opinion above. Remember when the Anchor Bays came out and many were "undecided" about buying them. Not because of quality, but because of price. After slow sales, many stores starting selling them at half-price and the responses here in the forums were unbelievable! Now people were willing to buy them at half-price and quickly! (I can't blame them! I bought mine at full price earlier!)

I went into a store in my area just last week that is moving and not going to carry Harbour Lights at it's new location. I knew beforehand that he had them at half-price. I was ready to get some bargains, but I was too late and he had sold most of his stock that day! Word spread quick that he was selling out and I don't blame anyone for picking up a bargain!

I think the bottom line will be that when the "dust" settles on all this, the stores that remain will be the winners!

ONLY TIME WILL TELL!!

So let me see if I understand the rules on the not posting and posting of 50% sales.

John said that he did not want to see any dealer's names or phone numbers that were having a 50% off sale. This is out of loyalty to Harbour Lights and John's own personal feelings. I can understand and live with this because if it hadn't been for JC, we may never have had a website to discuss these things.

It was later mentioned that if a forum member did happen to stumble across a good sale on Harbour Lights, the member could mention the sale and ask any interested collectors to contact them for specific details.

Is this correct or did I miss something in the 4,259 posts on this subject? I'm Soooo confused.

Rich

[This message has been edited by flacoastie (edited 01-26-2002).]

You got it right, Rich.

Thanks for understanding my position.

Thanks John and Paul and Randy and everyone else for having such a fantastic place to vent ideas, frustrations and every other thing. Back in early October 2001, I joined the forum and said that I probably would not post except to sell on the Marketplace or if I had something to say, but, I said that would not be too often. Here it is only 4 months later and I already have over 140 posts. You people really bring out the best (or worst) in me. Thanks again, because this posting on 50% sales has shown that while we all love and enjoy Harbour Lights, we are all individuals and each have our own concept on what is best for our fantastic collections and OUR Harbour Lights Company.

Rich

Being the 'person behind the email address' for R@R has allowed me some insight into the market/demand for HLs over the past few years. I'm going to float a couple of observations and solicit your comments.

First, for as long as I've been doing this, almost three years, dealers have been dropping the HL lines for various reasons. (And the HL dealer list has grown a bunch too) To read this thread, it seems that the pace and frequency of this may be picking up. Why? One theory is that the amount of discretionary (don't you love that economic term? Personally, none of what I earn is 'discretionary'. I need it all) income is less this year than it has been in some long time. So the prevalance of 50% off sales shouldn't be a surprise. The dealers are competing for the dollars that are still available in the market.

It may also be that the dealers are just good merchants too. Collectibles aren't a necessitiy. To keep the collector coming in, a dealer has to keep the flame alive for the collectible. Once the collector realizes that there are other things to do, both with their time and with their money, the dealer has lost a customer. One way for a dealer to help ride out the bad times is to acknowledge and share them by selling the merchandise for a discount. Thus preserving a customer for the future.

Another thing that I've noticed over the time I've done R@R is that I don't see many of the same people asking for leads that I see making posts here on the Forums. (Although I do have to thank the few Forum regulars that consistently provide me with leads. You know who you are, Thank you!) That tells me a couple of things.

1- That the market for HLs is somewhat wider than the view we have through the Forums looking glass. So don't make your decisions about HLs and your collection based solely on an opinion expressed here. The folks here are knowledgeable and passionate about 'their' Harbour Lights, but there are about 900 registered members of the Forums and over 35,000 Collector Society numbers issued. Yes, not all may be active members, but 900 vs. 35,000? There are many opinions that aren't being heard here.

2 - That the market is much wider than the view that one might conclude by reading this thread. Is it as healthy, frenetic and dynamic as a few years ago? Probably not. But I still get email at R@R from collectors who just started and want to catch-up some. So the market isn't dead either.

One last thing for now. I think the 'Lighthouse' craze is over. It's not just HLs that are 50% off. Many of the stores that had anything at all in a lighthouse motif have moved that stuff to the discount table. But, it is my hope that HLs can transition and grow to be a like Hummel or Lladro. Those are collectible lines that have stood the test of time and have many long term, dedicated collectors.

Looking forward to your comments and discussion.

Rick

Not to worry, Rick - I speak for all of them too. roflmao!

Yep, and of that 35,000 you have dealers buying for themselves, employee's that speculate, families with more than one membership, etc....etc....etc. Of that 35,000 we can't believe that there is actually that many individuals that are collecting. You can also knockoff quite a few of those registered forum members as well because quite a number of those only registered to sell their lighthouses in the Marketplace. The numbers are all skewed. I think the 10,000 number and GLOWs influenced the discounting more than any other twist, statistic or reason you can speculate on.

Product exceeded demand and GLOWs continue to compete for LE shelf space.

imho

another opinion to stir the pot (don't you just love it?)......
I purchase my HL very faithfully from the same dealer. He knows me (and my husband as well) when we walk in the door. One of the clerks calls me when something new or exciting is available. She put me on the list for Fresnels and then asked me later if I wanted them (she knew there wasn't any doubt). I am so thankful to have a dealer that cares about my purchases and my dollars. They know there are other places that I could go.
This dealer discounts very moderately, about 10%. I have no problem buying from him. He is also very happy that I am consistent with him. I have bought two pieces from Hallmark stores, for which I used my Gold Crown Club card and received a "rebate" of sorts. I see the moderate discounting no different from benefit cards like Hallmark has. It is offered as a perk to gain my continued interest, loyalty and yes, dollars.
I have only bought on e-bay once, and then to find a retired piece that was highly sought after.
I have found this entire discussion very thought provoking and stimulating. I am someone who definitely loves a bargain- I can't say that I wouldn't buy an HL for 50% off, but the comments expressed here have certainly made me think twice about it!

chris g

rick

Has the number of H.L. dealers realy gone up? I havent seen one new dealer in my area

don

I tend to look at how many purchase the Collector's Society piece. Last tally I saw was for the '99 Seven Foot Knoll - 9,400.

Active Collectors range from the true Wackos who buy each release like clockwork, to the folks specializing on a region, to those who buy what strikes their fancy at the time they can afford it. Some folks get real hotted up about lighthouse models, acquire a bunch, then lose interest after a couple years. Some folks buy the new ones they think are the most likely to become scarce and think others will always be available through the secondary. Some only go models of lights they have visited.

Number of active Collectors - hard to tell from year to year. My guess about hard core Collectors is somewhere around 1100. Active collector - arbitrarily picking a number of 6 purchases a year - I'll say around 3500.

Let's do this one in By The Numbers - I'll start a new thread there.
__
/

When I first posted this topic, I had no idea that it would bring such a response. I would like to comment on a few things at this point.

First of all, it's great to be able to express your own opinions without having a holy war declared against you.I believe that all of us here on the forums will agree to that.

Second is the fact that I collect from a very different perspective than most people and therefore view this whole matter a bit diffently from most collectors. I collect lighthouse items mostly for the historical value. I am not interested in what the market value is or what the future value may be. I am very much interested in Hudson River and New York State Lighthouses and collect what I can, not for future value but to leave to the Hudson-Athens Lighthouse and other Lighthouse Museums. This not only includes Harbour Lights, but lot of other items that I have purchased. I have no monetary interest at all in the Harbour Lights that I buy.

I will say this about dealers who half-price items. They are doing it because of one reason and that is that the product is not selling in their shop. There may be many reasons for that. Probably the number one reason is that there is too much product out there for sale and not enough buyers. One positive thing about "sale-pricing" is that it stimulates the market and gets more people interested in buying the product. Therefore it opens the door to people who were not collectors before. If they like the product enough they will buy more. So what I am saying is: that in the long run these
"half-price sales" will probably help both Harbour Lights and the value of your collections, because it will introduce new collectors into the market who will want to purchase retired pieces.

I also collect Old Lighthouse Postcards. When I first started you could buy these cards for 50 cents to a dollar or so. Now because the product is harder to find they are selling for $5-$10 a card at shows and on EBAY the harder to find cards are going for $30 even up to a $100 for some cards. The point here is that the more collectors there are and the smaller the amount of a product that is available, the higher the value of the product. So perhaps the smaller limited edition sizes will be good. But remember, you also need new collectors and new collectors are more likely to jump in at a bargain price, especially in todays economy.

The Lightkeeper
Mike

Tim - Glad you got a chuckle from reading my post.

Sean - In general, I share your feelings about the GLOW line. I wonder if the collector uproar when the first GLOWs were introduced plays a role. Not everyone may know that the first GLOWs were of lights that had not previously been released as Limited Editions. Collector sentiment, as expressed to Harbour Lights, was that no lighthouse should be a GLOW before it was a Limited Edition. Could this have painted HLs into a corner, restricting their flexibity in release schedule and forcing everything to be an LE at release. Imagine for a minute that 1/2 or 2/3 of a years releases were GLOWS. HLs would get revenue, committed LE collectors would have fewer pieces to buy each year and the finite supply of lighthouses to be sculpted would last several more year. Done this way, maybe GLOWS would have helped instead of hurt. Just a thought. And not fully formed at this point either.

Don - I don't have last years number of dealers, the only list I know of was online at HL.com under 'Find A Dealer'. I do have the dealer lists from 1998 and 2000 that were included in the Collector's Society materials. I didn't count each year, but the 1998 list was 16 pages with about 75 dealers per page. The 2000 list was 24 pages, same layout per page, about 75. So, roughly 600 more dealers in 2000 than in 1998 by that measure.

Rick

Some "dealers" only sell GLOW's and now some just the Little Lights so that could account for the increased numbers.

Thread is continued in:
Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2