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Going to war without France....... #80596 02/20/03 08:18 PM
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Pharologst Offline OP
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....is like going hunting without your accordian!

IMHO



Geo H.
Re: Going to war without France....... #80597 02/21/03 01:59 AM
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Ron Offline
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We will prevail with out France. But we were there for them when they needed us. I think these other countries are afraid that if they join us they will experience a 911 also.

Re: Going to war without France....... #80598 02/21/03 10:42 AM
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I'm personally torn on the issue. I have no great affection for the French, although I am envious that they know the importance of time off from work and allocate ample vacation time accordingly (why are we so #@!!$ stingy with vacation time in this country?). But I digress.

But then I read this, and it gives me pause. Click on the link below. It's good.

The French Dilemma

Re: Going to war without France....... #80599 02/21/03 03:00 PM
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Pharologst Offline OP
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Bill, that little epistle was really worth reading, thanks!


Geo H.
Re: Going to war without France....... #80600 02/21/03 08:01 PM
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I'm sick and tired of all these other countries. Without us 60 years ago, they would all be speaking German. We don't need there help now and in the future I don't ever want to hear them asking for help. They are all a bunch of leaches, and thats how I feel.


David
Re: Going to war without France....... #80601 02/22/03 11:11 AM
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Sadly we have seen this in the past. After this is all over the US will forget all about France and Germany's boycott, forgive them, and probably end up giving them a few million dollars for some odd reason. Where will we get our croissant's??

Re: Going to war without France....... #80602 02/27/03 12:38 PM
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After everything is all said and done...we'll probably end up "bailing" out their butts, again, someday!
They're probably ticked-off at us for surpassing them at making quality wine, anyway. I know they won't forgive us for that... eek


Brent
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Re: Going to war without France....... #80603 02/27/03 01:23 PM
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Many of the local eateries have stopped selling French wines. I guess the French government has forgotten such areas as the Argonne Forest area during WWI, not to mention WWII.

Tim

Re: Going to war without France....... #80604 02/27/03 01:29 PM
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Politics, that's what it's all about, imo. The leaders of most countries just don't want to risk their jobs. Tony Blair's an exception, but then he can always switch parties, as he seems to have more support from the Conservatives.

It's certainly not true that everyone has forgotten our help in WWII. During a trip to England in 1994 I was amazed to have found people who even then couldn't thank us/me enough. The proprietor of the B&B in London where we stayed told us, on the day of our journey to Wales, that he had been evacuated to Wales during the war. Takes you back. These folks certainly aren't the ones protesting against current involvement.

France, that's another story. These folks like us for our tourist dollars which have paid for much of Paris' renovations. And we didn't exactly start out fighting for them in Africa.

Re: Going to war without France....... #80605 02/27/03 01:48 PM
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Bill Harnsberger Offline
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The way I see it, sometimes friends have to tell friends when they're about to embark on something that may prove unwise...or, at the very least, hasty. It's not fun being told that, but I applaud the French government for not rolling over just because we're the big kid on the block. I've read interviews with Chirac. He makes some good points. Personally, I'm glad there's someone besides the Russians and Chinese bringing different points of view to the table.

As I've said before, I have no particular affinity for the French. But I do know that they haven't forgotten our help in past conflicts and they're not cowards. They're just not convinced that Bush's plan is the way to go. If the Iraqis keep foot-dragging like they are, I'm sure the number of allies on board will climb within a few months.

And let's not forget: Without those French ships bottling up the escape route around Yorktown, our country might be very different today. Tea, anyone?

Re: Going to war without France....... #80606 02/27/03 03:39 PM
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I wish it was easier than it seems to be. There's circumstantial evidence, but I'm not sure that a case for immediate invasion of Iraq has been made. Saddam is contained. With the inspectors doing their job, and with the United Nations and United States watching like, pardon the pun, hawks, he isn't going to get too far in fooling anyone or preparing to harm anyone. That may be the attitude France and Germany are taking. Yes, there are ships moving around the Mediterranean Sea that have materials that may be bomb and other components that Saddam is trying to hide. What can those ships do? The U.S. is watching them carefully so there is no opportunity to make landfall and off load.


good friends mean good times
Re: Going to war without France....... #80607 02/27/03 09:40 PM
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The French and Germans have been our friends for a while and in the end they will do what is right and join us for this war on Iraq. I believe this whole thing is a problem they have with Bush. He came into office and told the world "kiss my butt" (paraphrase) and pulled out of several international deals that the US was a big part of at the time. This move proved to be of benefit to his business buddies, but the international community was pissed. He then kills the Microsoft suit (smooth move there) ect ect sorry, off the subject a moment. The International Community was pissed and now it all comes home to roost. His idea of, I poop on you but you can’t poop on me doesn’t cut it. I say let them vent, in the end they will go with us because they always have and they know who butter’s their bread.

We also need to listen to what is being said by them in the area of terrorism. Remember, the European community has been dealing with this problem far longer than the US has. I was stationed in Wiesbaden Germany back in 71’ as a medic. While stationed there we had terrorist setting off bombs at military bases, police stations, killing politicians, robbing banks and just generally causing mass mayhem. I was there during the Olympics when the athletics were taken hostage, things were not really very safe there at the time. The USAF Hospital where I worked received many bomb threats, which disrupted everything to say the least. We never actually had one found, but we still had to look and seal the place off to be sure. Please remember that France and Germany have sent many terrorists to jail and continue to do so now. They have the first 911 conviction, which says something about where their heart is. I prefer the death penalty myself for the guy, but with him behind bars he can give others up. You see, they don’t have such a thing as police brutality there or they didn’t when I was there many moons ago.

While we have suffered the greatest loss anyone could imagine we need to be focused and listen to others who have greater experience in this area. Then we need to take all those soldiers we are sending oversea's and send them into North Pakistan and get the SOB who did it. Oh I'm sorry, Pakistan is on our side, riiiiight.

They will do the right thing, but they may let Bush twist in the wind for a while.

IMHO

Chuck


bigdragon
Re: Going to war without France....... #80608 02/28/03 03:16 AM
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Some food for thought from 'an old soldier' here:

http://www.news5.tv/Global/story.asp?S=1155718&nav=23KtEHcn

Re: Going to war without France....... #80609 02/28/03 09:59 AM
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a long article worth reading. It seems more reasonable than blocking our windows with plastic and duct tape so that we use up the available oxygen.


good friends mean good times
Re: Going to war without France....... #80610 03/01/03 01:02 AM
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This was an excellent article from an old soldier. Thanks again for sharing John.

Tim

Re: Going to war without France....... #80611 03/01/03 11:35 AM
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Saddam isn't "contained". IMHO, I believe that he is the quintessential terriorist who's primary targets are the Jews, first....and any democracy, second. Lets face it, neither of the above are in the best interest of many Arab leader's...and never will be. As much as I hated the cold-war, there was something to be said about two opposing "super-powers" holding the rest of the world, at bay. Atleast there was a mutual respect for each other's strength. Now, with just one....everybody wants to play "king of the hill", thus, an instability that will only get worse, I'm afraid. It all comes down to whether people want "true democracy" or not. What is good for some, is a threat to others....i.e., most Arab leader's with their totalitarianism and most Western Europeans who are more intuned with socialism than they are with pure democracy. The one commond thread between the cold war period & today's situation is America and her few, true allies. If we don't do something to stop this global cancer, who will?


Brent
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Re: Going to war without France....... #80612 03/02/03 02:07 PM
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Perhaps what is holding up many countries in their support of the US position is the fear factor of the unknown or future. Their bottom line seems to be we don't want to lose our oil shipments, we don't want to risk our soldiers' lives, and we don't want to seem to unilaterally support a war. It is this shortsightedness at vision of what the world needs to be like that is hindering these countries from supporting a move to end a very real threat.


good friends mean good times
Re: Going to war without France....... #80613 03/02/03 02:26 PM
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Anyone care to guess which Superpower was most helpful in Saddam Hussein early days?

Anybody care to say which side the US backed in the Iraq-Iran war?

Shortsightedness is not only a problem that other countries have. The US is a grand practioner of it. Of course, it's always easier to see what should have been done years later.

There's an even better example in a country only 90 miles from our Shores- we were very responsible for Castro gaining control in Cuba. That worked out well for us , didn't it?

We have a long history of helping people who are as bad or worse than the other guy's despot. Many of our allies and countries we support are Democracies in theory only.


Dennis

Re: Going to war without France....... #80614 03/14/03 09:41 PM
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My reason that I disagree with the French:

AMERICAN BATTLE MONUMENTS COMMISSION

Charles R. Pierce

Sergeant, U.S. Army

119th Infantry Regiment, 30th Infantry Division

Entered the Service from: North Carolina
Died: October 11, 1918

Buried at: Plot A Row 34 Grave 07
Somme American Cemetery
Bony, France

Check out www.abmc.gov for yourself, maybe you'll find your uncle or someone else you know.


Bob, just plain Bob
Re: Going to war without France....... #80615 03/15/03 11:34 AM
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Why do foreigners hate Americans? Is it because we are the land of the free and the home of the brave? We definitely were at one time.

Why do we keep accepting immigrants from the countrys who do not support us only to watch these people turn on us and in some cases, attack us.

Some countries across the pond forgot what the Americans did to save their butts. The french (purposely not capitalized) have short memories. Maybe we should go to france (purposely not capitalized) and remove our dead warriors from their soil and return them to the land they loved and fought so hard to support. They truly made the ultimate sacrifice for something they believed in.

Maybe America should block all imports from france (purposely not capitalized)or at least put a nice tariff on anything from france (purposely not capitalized) to certainly discourage the use of their products.

When we kick Iraq's butt, we should demand that no oil from Iraq's soil will ever go to france (purposely not capitalized). Maybe the french (purposely not capitalized) would like to start drilling for their own oil along the Riviera.

You have to do what you have to do. I do not want to see one drop of American blood spilled in this conflict. I'm in favor of bombing the hell out of them! Bomb until the big white flags are waved every where in Iraq!

This is not going to be a sneak attack. The people in Iraq know it's coming and they know what they can do to prevent it.

Remember 09-11-01...

mad Bob mad

Re: Going to war without France....... #80616 03/17/03 09:07 PM
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Got this in an e-mail from a friend today-interesting:
Today it was reported that severe earthquakes have occurred in 10 different locations in France. The severity was measured in excess of 10 on the Richter Scale. The cause was the 56,681 dead American soldiers buried in French soil rolling over in their graves.
According to the American Battle Monuments Commission, there are 26,255 Yankee dead from World War I buried in 4 cemeteries in France. There are 30,426 American dead from World War II buried in 6 cemeteries in France.
These 56,681 brave American heroes died in their youth to liberate a country which is guilty of shameful unspeakable behavior in the 21st century.
May the United States of America never forget their sacrifice as we find ways to forcefully deal with the Godforsaken unappreciative, forgetful country of France!
PASS THIS AROUND! Maybe it will get to someone in France!!!

Re: Going to war without France....... #80617 03/18/03 12:57 PM
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I would like to add one thought.
If it were not for France's hard headed and hard hearted treatment of the Germans after WWI, we may not have ever seen the rise of the Nazis. Thus, we would not have had to sacrifice so many American soldiers lives saving French butt in WWII. - Joe

Re: Going to war without France....... #80618 03/18/03 08:39 PM
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You would think it was about time for some payback when you think how many times they saved our butt. I don't hear them talking about how we would all be subjects of the Crown of England or speaking Spanish because of the wars we might have lost to Spain. Opps did I say something bad about our fair weather (bought) friend Spain. eek And for those of you who want to buy Freedom fries instead of French fries, the French fry isn't from France :rolleyes: It's amazing the people we elect to office or don't elect confused Please don't fool yourself into thinking we were over there in France to save the French. We were there for the same reason we went to Afghanistan, because some poor dumb SOB decided to bomb us on our own soil and he wasn’t from Iraq either time. We need to keep our eye on the ball and not get distracted by some payback for a contract on daddy.


Chuck eek laugh


bigdragon
Re: Going to war without France....... #80619 03/19/03 01:21 AM
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I mean no disrespect to any who've posted here, but I don't think we should get so carried away that we forget who the real enemy is.

Making comparisons between today's issues and those of 50+ years ago doesn't always work, imo. Besides the polital reasons behind their decisions I think that one reason that some countries have decided not to support military action against Iraq is from fear of reprisals.

Regardess of our personal feelings we here in the US will have to accept whatever happens if/when the action begins.

Re: Going to war without France....... #80620 03/19/03 12:55 PM
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[The Harbour Lights war counsel convenes and comes to order]

Moderator: First item of business. What can we do to get France's goat? Yes, Mr. Harnsberger?

Harnsberger: I've got an idea. Let's all smash our La Jument Harbour Lights sculptures to pieces and mail them to Chirac. I mean, we all brought our collections here for Bill Younger to sign---there must be 500 La Juments in this very room. Let's do it! Let's show those French cowards! Rrrrrrrrrrr!!!

Crowd: Yeah! Yeah! That'll fix 'em! Murmur! Murmur!

Moderator: Okay, who wants to go first? Here's a hammer and some safety goggles, don't be shy. Step right up and take a whack!

Crowd: Oh, well, mine's kind of a low number...murmur murmur...already had mine signed, can't destroy Bill's signature...murmur murmur...I think mine has a variation on it, might be valuable...murmur murmur...bought it on my honeymoon...murmur murmur...

Moderator (thinking quickly): Okay, all those in favor of smashing the NEXT French lighthouse Harbour Lights releases and then mailing them to Chirac say Aye.

Crowd: AYE!! Yeah!! Rrrrrrr!! [Applause]

Moderator: Okay everybody...LUNCH! Hamburgers and French fri...I mean EGGPLANT STRIPS!

[Meeting adjourned]

Re: Going to war without France....... #80621 03/19/03 03:04 PM
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Pharologst Offline OP
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NOw that the war is imminent, I think Bush should send a wire to Chirac stating that we neither need nor want any support from France, and that they should just stay out of the way. Maybe Chirac could make a visit to his good buddy Saddam during the next week or so.


Geo H.
Re: Going to war without France....... #80622 03/19/03 04:22 PM
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Yeah. Let's send some Hueys over to Paris and steal the Eiffel Tower.

Re: Going to war without France....... #80623 03/22/03 05:56 AM
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The war is on and so far 21 US and British troops have died in accidents or in combat.

Now france has stated that it will block any attempt by the UN to allow the US and/or Britian to oversee the afterwar governance of Iraq. confused

Who do they think should, them?

Amazing.

Dale

Re: Going to war without France....... #80624 03/22/03 11:20 PM
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LOL George... however, Chirac doesn't need to go far as he has Saddam in his back pocket.

Tim

Re: Going to war without France....... #80625 03/23/03 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Torchbearer:
LOL George... however, Chirac doesn't need to go far as he has Saddam in his back pocket.

Tim
I thought it was the other way around with Chirac peeking out from Saddam's back pocket.


Geo H.
Re: Going to war without France....... #80626 03/25/03 01:02 AM
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...then the spelling would be Chiraq ?

Re: Going to war without France....... #80627 04/03/03 03:58 PM
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Well, we now know who will over-see Iraq. It will be Halliburton, gee where have I heard that name before. Who said it wasn't about oil. Oh that's right it's about WMD. Where are they now?

Chuck eek


bigdragon
Re: Going to war without France....... #80628 04/04/03 04:14 PM
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FYI Chuck, Halliburton has stated very publically that it will NOT bid on any Iraqi rebuilding efforts because of a perceived conflict of opinion.


Bob, just plain Bob
Re: Going to war without France....... #80629 04/16/03 10:16 AM
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