I found today that the link from Harbour Lights website to the collector forums was missing. I was lost. I called John and he said that Harbour Lights had asked that the link be removed. Their objection was that the Marketplace posts often sold HL's for less than retail. I guess some dealers complained about this, although I don't know.

Considering how much feedback Harbour Lights must get from the Collector Forums, I'd say dropping the link here is pretty short-sighted.

What do you think?

Amazing! I've always used this link to find HOME when on a strange computer or to recruit a new wacko. Ergo: They go to the Harbour Lights' site first!

I noticed it too. At first, I just thought that I was going crazy. I then went through each indiviual link to make sure it wasn't there (of course, it wasn't).

I think it's a shame, too. I understand what HL did what they did but I will miss having that link (I would go back and forth for reference sometimes, when posts refered to lighthouses or HL pieces that I wasn't 100% familiar with). I used to go through harbourlights.com to get here all the time (that was actually how I first found this wonderful place). Oh well...

I guess that nobody quite believed what is at the top of the page for the Forums

"The Collector Forums are provided as a service to Harbour Lights collectors and others Interested in lighthouses world-wide by Lighthouse Keepers.
The posts reflect the opinions of the individual. Not affiliated with Harbour Lights or Younger & Associates".

This statement might be technically true, but there was always an unofficial link to Harbour Lights along with the actual link.

This sometimes came up when things were posted that the powers that be on the forums felt were unfair to Harbour lights.

Now that we have no official link or unofficial link i guess that might not happen as often.

I think that the forums will still be monitiored by someone at Harbour lights and we still have some unofficial members of the Harbour lights Company here on the Forums and I'm sure they will continue to be our lifeline to the ear of Harbour Lights when needed.

It will make it harder to point new people in the right direction though- www.harborlights.com is much easier to remember than the forums URL.

Dennis

Would it be worth it to get the link back to change the marketplace? It could be limited to retired pieces only. That way, the dealers aren't hurt by it.

John has made it easier to bring up the forums, all you have to remember is...

www.lighthousekeepers.com

to get there if you lose your link... I have the forums as my homepage so it isn't a problem for me.... I have Harbourlights.com as my first bookmark so that isn't hard to get to either!

Well I don't really know who pays the bills for the forum but I know it ain't cheap. If Harbour Lights is in the shadows helping out, all I can do is say thanks Harbour Lights for your continued support of this great forum and your largest club!

We don't need the link at your web site, we need this web site! My vote is to pull the Marketplace before any other seemingly rash decisions get made or just leave it alone if the removal of the link was satisfactory, please.

imho

The Forum is where I get my HL info -
The Forum is where I became a Wacko -
The Forum is the instrument the stokes the fire -

Short sighted? Ever heard the expression; "cut off their nose to spite......." ? But on the other hand; with the economy and the loss of many dealers, Y&A must keep them happy ..... I guess. Joe

Losing the direct link is going to be an inconvience to be sure but we must wiegh the needs of harbour lights against our neds for a short cut to the forums.The Youngers have been more than good to we collectors over the years and should not cut of our nose to spite our face so to speak besides John has come up with a new adress for us to reach thiis site easily or just put it on your favorite list where it should be.No problem in fact I found it from here in Nova Scotia by the use of a little common sense.Lets keep on good terms with B.Y.& Co..Bill O'Brien AKA oseabee

This is just STUPID . I think HARBOUR LIGHTS.COM may just lose my patronage over this one. (Opps Ment to add .COM)

It's a minor inconvenience to all who are already here.

You just have to adjust a little and change a couple of things that you have been doing.

The thing that hurts the most is the ease in which newcomers could find us before, but even that should not be too hard.

At least they have not taken off the Internet Links from the official site. Is there any link to the Forums in there?

I looked, but did not find one.

Here's a question- were the forums always called just "Collector Forums" or was it at one time actually called "Harbour Lights Collectors Forums?"

Dennis

Let's not go overboard on this as the phrase goes. I have Harbour Lights bookmarked and I also have the Collector's Forum bookmarked. It only take a second to pull either or both up so what is the big deal?

Harbour Lights has the right to do anything that they want and we should honor their wishes. But let's not go throw the baby out with the dishwater, so to speak. The marketplace, which I and many others use to sell our extra lighthouses, is a gift to us and many others who don't realize it even now. I'm sure that at least 75% of the Forum members and equaly the same percentage of the browsers use the Marketplace to check out prices, compare prices on Ebay and other secondary market sources and finally get a line on the value of their LE/GLOWS since their is no up to date source on the market.

Harbour Lights only mentioned that their dealers were upset and they asked to have the link removed. It's their right and our good fortune that we can be remotely affiliated with them. So let's sit back, have a glass of iced tea(southerners of course), iced coffee(yankees) and what ever else the rest of the country drinks and relax. Leave the Forums just the way they are and set yourself up with a couple of bookmarks and be coooooooool!

Rich

I agree in that it is Harbour Lights right to remove anything from their website that they want to. I also agree that it will make it harder for new comers to find, but I am sure that we can guide and help them find what they need. What I did was create a shortcut from the forum and put it on my desktop. One click and I am there.

Lets just sit tight and see what happens. We are all upset right now but lets see if things don't get better.

John, does Harbour Lights really think they should be able to control the secondary marketplace?? True, some items may be offered at a discounted price, but it is the secondary market where price/demand are open items as opposed to the RETAIL initial offering. Our forums should not permit "dealers", but rather only collectors. The prior sentance doesn't carry any great insight as to just how to do that, i.e., limit it to collectors. IF Harbour Lights wishes to cancel the "link" it only goes a little further to strengthen my personal notion that HL is nothing more than any other corporation, neither better or worse. They are within their rights to pull the link. I can understand(don't agree with it, and believe it is childish but...) their reasoning, especially when one considers that RIGHT NOW in the old MARKETPLACE and in THE NEW MARKETPLACE there are adds by people who are acting like retail dealers even though they call themselves collectors. I have a couple of adds there, and yes my prices are below retail but that is as a result of an open market based upon supply & demand. I don't consider myself a dealer since the pieces are from MY collection not my supply room, and I don't have multiples for sale as many others(dealers) do.

:p The actual presence or lack therof of the link doesn't matter one iota to me otherwise. :p Whatever we do let's NOT do it for the reason "to stay on the good side of B.Y. & Co." to quote a prior post.

"I agree in that it is Harbour Lights right to remove anything from their website that they want to."
"The Collector Forums are provided as a service to Harbour Lights collectors and others Interested in lighthouses world-wide by Lighthouse Keepers. The posts reflect the opinions of the individual. Not affiliated with Harbour Lights or Younger & Associates."
I am not sure that these two thoughts go together. Those of us that have been around since HL.com started, will remember that we had this discussion initially, and that the second statement seemed to clear up the connection enough for the marketplace to continue.
But mostly, I also think this is a shortsighted position by Y & A. In order for HL to grow as a company there has to be a healthy secondary market. Now Y & A has to keep an arm's length from this secondary market and cannot appear to be trying to influence it, but the forums would seem to be at that arm's length distance. And, since many of HL's most vocal supporters hang out here, and create positive feedback for HL, it seems short sighted to remove the connection which points the new collectors to another site which will generally support the company's aims. Perhaps the answer is to list the link in the Internet Links section which lists every other lighthouse link know to man. To remove it totally seems like overkill to me.
Another solution may be to move the Marketplace to a truly independent server and just have a link from the forums. Anyone have the room?
Jim
Johnson

Since it was official dealers who initially complained, I can't really argue with their concern. They are not allowed to discount pieces as part of their contract with HL (some do when they go out of business though. Can't really enforce policies in situations like that). But when their own supplier provides a direct link from the official company website to discounted pieces, although unintentially, I would bitch too. When a brand new collector visits the HL website, they can easily click over to the list of official dealers and choose who to buy their pieces from. Pretty fair. But at the same time, they also happen to click over to the Marketplace Forum where they can routinely pick up pieces at an even lower price....where do you think they are going to buy the pieces from? Any savy buyer can (and should) do that exploration for themselves for anything they buy, but is it really necessary for the official company to help them along, against the wishes of their own dealers? Kinda ify IMO. By removing the link, HL has not stepped on the secondary market at all, if anything they have removed themselves further from it yet again, which is what they consistantly try to do, and therefore are being loyal to the official dealers.

BUT...

It's a shame that at the same time they are removing the single most important link for any new HL buyer (IMO). HL couldn't possibly have a better unpaid marketing team than the wacked out collectors on these Forums. Most of us here know more about the complete line of sculptures, the Younger family, and the history of the releases than most official reps know (or would even want to. LOL). I would think this is the ultimate marketing heaven for any company to have, and most would outright kill for it. HL needs to consider what potential may be lost by not having the link. The comradery and outlook here kinda sucks you right into becoming a collector. I think HL is smart enough to put some serious effort into accomplishing both of the goals at the same time, and will eventually work out a compromise. At least give them some time to think about it.

For those of us already here, what's the big deal. 2 links instead of one. Kinda like moaning about the TV remote being across the room instead of in the hand.

Let's take Jim's vision a little further. How about the Collectors Forum finally becoming a 100% part of HabourLights.com? We drop both Marketplaces, the Marketplaces become an entity of their own at LighthouseKeepers.com and the Forums find a home at HarbourLights.com? Now again I know nothing of the financing of the LighthouseKeepers Site, perhaps this is putting a burden back on John by having to maintain two web sites. Anyway it's a thought.

Here's the real question - is this the last step?

I was first introduced to Harbour Lights when I worked at a gift shop that sold them. I quickly became the shop lighthouse expert. I can remember well a guy coming in to pick up his annual christmas ornament from another manufacturer, talking to me for 20 minutes and leaving with the great lakes stamp set, 4 LE's and a society membership. Pretty soon, I was hooked on my own sales pitch. When I first started collecting, I bought about 20 pieces during the first year. Only one of these was from the store I worked at. Why? Because I found better retired pieces elsewhere: a Barnegat at the mall, a New London Ledge in the midwest somewhere, Key West in Colorado. How did I find them? The dealer list. Would it have ticked off my boss? Absolutely.

We all have a regular dealer we like, but would we spend the $60.00 somewhere else for a Sandy Hook at original retail? You bet we would. Would our local dealer rather have our $60.00 for something else? Probably so. Does that mean Harbour Lights should get rid of dealer directories or retired at retail? I sure hope not. We are the ones who keep this thing going. I don't think a little link on a website is too much to ask.

Since I just found this place a couple of weeks ago, I feel confident talking about this. Without that link, I wouldn't be here. Without that link, new collectors may never know there are a whole bunch of folks who love this stuff as much as they do. (Suddenly I feel like I'm at a rally. Do you guys have the signs ready?) It's in my favorites list now, but I sure am glad I didn't try to check it out for the first time today instead of in July.

Long live the forums!

Regardless of selling price, why would the HL site have a link to *any* site that is not an authorized dealer? You are not their customer - the *dealer* is their customer. Dealers don't feel like the customer when HL sends people to eBay or anywhere else they might purchase product that is not from them.

Long hot summer? Bored? My first inclination was to think of this as a tempest-in-a-teapot non-issue. There was a lengthy period of time when there was no link to the Forums on the HL site and neither seemed to suffer from what wasn't there.

Time was when the secondary market was a critical ingredient to Harbour Lights success - and I continue to believe it helped get them where they are today. However, imo, HL no longer cares about building or maintaining their product as a true Collectible and these "objets d'occaision" are really of little consequence to the on-going success of their business. This is not to say there should not be a secondary market, but simply that HL no longer implicitly depends on it.

From a different angle - I suspect HL views the Collectors Forums much as they view a successful club. The clubs are good for promoting HL's product but are independent from it. Note, there are no links to club information on the HL site. Fundamental issues are liability and endorsement. As a club member I would not want my club 'owned' or controlled by HL economics or marketing. The sort of mutual admiration society relationship that exists today - which has no formal or legal ties - seems to work just fine.

As soon as a closer than arms-length relation develops between HL and the forums, those economic and liability issues come into play (the subject of this topic is an example). I for one do not wish to think about the consequences of something I or someone else might say here having an impact on HL - or vice versa.

While HL plays warm and fuzzy - they are at root a business. Their basic interests are not the same as those of Collectors. There is nothing wrong with this, but lets not confuse or comingle our interests or introduce those unnecessary constraints and quid pro quos that would come from closer ties.

The price of losing the best alternative to eBay (aka the marketplace) is extraordinarily high. Do not under-estimate what we would give up just to have a link to here on the HL site. Remember - Collectors are where the secondary market is.

HL is right not to link to the forums from their site - or to any other place where models are sold that is not an authorized dealer. And I'll predict there will be no change to their business success, nor decrease here in long term forum participation from anyone.

Warm Land,
Cool Water,

T

2 things

1. The dealers may be HL's real customers, but those dealers won't order much if we don't buy them. This forum can only help to grow and solify the customer base. If the newbies can't find us, we can't brainwash them.

2. A majority of the pieces sold in the marketplace are retired pieces that aren't available at dealers anyway. The effect it has on dealers is probably very small.

We're all here. Has anyone quit buying from dealers?

ok, just thinking out loud. What if the Marketplace forum is taken completely out? Would we rather have the link back on the HL web page with NO selling allowed here or having NO link from the HL web page and leave the Marketplace forum intact?

I for one would not have the collection that I have now had it not been for the Marketplace and the HONEST SELLERS that I have dealt with over the years. I will not buy from E-BAY because of the misrepresentation I have observed in discriptions, etc. On the Marketplace you are dealing with Forum Members for the most part and if they misrepresent, you are dealing with a name. In the 25 plus dealings that I have bought over the Marketplace, not one has been sour.

The Marketplace is also a way for collectors like me to keep our hobby strong and continue to buy all the new pieces by selling retired pieces at a slight profit (of course it has not been that way recently). I could not afford to buy all the new issues if I did not have a way to sell my extra retired pieces. There are very few Secondary Market dealers left, and they normally charge a 20%-25% markup to your asking price (you must also pay shipping charges to the Secondary Market dealer) so you must keep your asking price so low that you are really not making enough to even make it worth your while. The Marketplace gives you a chance to make a slight profit and also allows your fellow collectors to buy a retired piece at a reasonable price.

I know that the Marketplace is one of the forums that I visit 4-5 times a day, to see if that "fantastic buy is there", even if I don't have time to visit the rest of the forums. Harbour Lights should be proud to have a secondary market (only lighthouse manufacturer that does as far as I know) as as long as they don't get involved with it they are consistant with their original policy that Bill said a long time ago that they would follow. The dealers may be upset about the Marketplace but it shouldn't affect them as the retired/non-retired pieces that are advertised on there were initially bought at SOME RETAIL STORE THAT IS AUTHORIZED TO SELL HARBOUR LIGHTS .

Leave the Marketplace alone and set your bookmarks. New collectors, if they are interested enough, will find the Forums by either surfing, word of mouth or calling Harbor Lights to find out information about existing sites. The Collectors Forum could also be in a link as was suggested. I think we ought to leave well enough alone and not prematurely get into the lifeboats. As I said earlier let play it cool and calm. The Marketplace is an intregal part of the Forums and it would be a shame to abandon it just to appease some dealers that could care less either way about lighthouses and are just selling lighthouses to sell lighthouses. They probably couldn't even get to the HL web pages if you asked them. I know of the three dealers in Ocala, two of them know nothing other then what is in the HL information brochure and the third may take an interest but is never willing to take the time to talk to you. This is why I buy out of town and have my pieces shipped to me. My dealer cares and takes good care of me and I know that my dealer is one of the ones that would not complain because she tells me that she reads the forums when she gets the chance to keep up on the going prices.

My final vote is remove the link and leave the Marketplace Forum alone.

Rich

WOW! I can see the problem that the link would cause Harbour Lights with their dealers and, as such, support their request to remove the link. It creates a minor inconvenience that is easy to deal with. Go along with the change, folks!! I just wonder why it took so long for whomever or whatever started the ball rolling?

Dan

I'm just happy that this forum is still alive somewhere!! I was away for a few days and was in a panic when I turned on my computer today and found the link to the Collectors Forum gone!

I totally understand Harbour Lights decision, however the fact that newbie collectors won't have a way to get to this sight is rather sad. This forum was a big help in advancing my collection of HL's, not to mention all the other fun and interesting lighthouse activities and information that is presented here. I feel sorry for those that will miss out on it.

I also think that HL misses out a bit by not having the link on their page. I always accessed this forum through their website and while I was there I would occassionaly browse their sight for news and product updates. Although I am sure that I will still visit their site from time to time it certainly won't be on the daily basis that I was accessing it before.

Well, in the end we still have the forum and all the friends and fun that we have here!!

I understand why HL did it and they have the right. Also, it is NO inconvenience, we all have it book marked anyway, BUT, the point is this: Harbour Lights is hurting themselves by killing the connection. When I first visited the HL web site, I had maybe 5 of their product. Because I found the forum, "THAT is what stoked the fire" and now I have way too many HLs (wacko). Y&A has made some big money from me because I found the forum easily and I am sure there are many of you out there that can say the same thing. Lets face it, most of our friends and neighbors are not collectors so we come here to talk about our addiction. This feeds the fire. I really don't care if there is a connection, but, HL needs to realize that they will lose some cash from future potential wackos without it. - Joe

1. Who is the "we" doing all this buying and brain washing?

Imo, the purpose of these forums is not to "grow and soli[di]fy the customer base." If you want to do that, become a Harbour Lights rep. There is no evidence the presence or absence of a link to these forums on the HL page has any impact on their sales.

2. A dollar spent on a retired piece is a dollar not spent on a new piece from a dealer. There is only so much disposable income available to be spent on lighthouse models.

There is a small number of folks who have been here for a while, so most probably don't realize that these forums were started precisely because AOL banned the sale of items in regular forum messages unless the seller paid a fee.

Do not underestimate the value of an open marketplace that is unencumbered by the trappings of eBay or other commercial venture. And do not underestimate the value of open forums that are not encumbered by commercial affiliation.

T

Actually if you take all of us out of the picture it is a big inconvenience. It is going to be difficult for the new collector to find us. We won't be mentioned in the Legacy Newsletter anymore and we are not on the Web Site. So just how will a new collector find our forums even exist? I hope by word of mouth from dealers,present users and club support! I think this is a more significant set back than most of us are realizing.

Tim I hope your wrong about Harbour Lights and their lack of the need to produce limited editions. Its hard to call something a limited edition when it has no secondary market. In fact those of you discounting on the Marketplace your hurting your own collection as well as all the collectors. Example, the ownly thing that gives a limited edition Coquille or Portland Head any value at all is the owners of these pieces continued refusal to sell them for less! Why else is there no big market for say New Point Loma? Easy, because many attendees probably made a quick buck and sold them for under $450 instead of sticking to their guns and refusing to sell them for less. They were well above $650 at one time. Go ahead and discount away and you will never see this collectible rebound, and eventually in the long run you will aid in reducing Younger and Associates longevity. Think about it. If your going to sell them don't give them away.

You affect the market value everytime you sell. You sell low and intern devalue your own collection!

imho

I understand that the purpose of the forums is not to grow or solidify the customer base. However, the forums do have that effect. I was trying to explain the positive aspects of the forum towards Y&A. Us spending lots of time yapping about different things doesn't affect them. Us building excitement about releases or sharing ideas about innovations does.

And not everyone has this place bookmarked. For me, I was lucky it was still in my history folder. Otherwise I'd be at yahoo right now trying to find it.

Bottom Line - there are negatives to having a link at their site, but they are far outweighed by the positives (for collectors and HL).

Also, if collectors want to find retired pieces the lack of that link won't stop them. They can still go to ebay or wherever. The only thing the missing link might cause is new collectors (or old ones with no bookmarks) missing out on the forums (which are MUCH more than the marketplace).

Firstly, I'm not much of a seller having placed one ad in the marketplace over all these years, so we'll speak generally.

Yes - I agree that market value is determined in part by current sale prices. However market value is mostly impacted by demand. If a person wants or needs to sell and there are no buyers, then either their price is too high, or the market is sufficiently flooded that there is no demand.

My current thinking is that the HL market has dramatically changed. Prices are lower not because people sell for less, but because demand is less. Why is demand down? Demand is down because:
[*] the line overall is less desirable - partly resulting from the the 10k edition size (pig in the python) which reduced scarcity and mostly because of Glows which reduced uniqueness;
[*] there are fewer Collectors to whom the notion of a Limited Edition is meaningful and desirable. Why are there fewer Collectors? Part of the reason is dilution of appeal as in the previous bullet point. Another part of the reason is the higher entry cost to acquiring some of the earlier, truly desirable pieces. And lastly there is no indication of price appreciation on any but a handful of pieces outside the original 5500 series.

The secondary market is now mostly a discount market and no longer a Collectibles market - its a place for dealers to get rid of overstocks. The only value the secondary ever really had to HL is the extent to which it drove enthusiasm to purchase new models based on the hope the new ones will, either through the passage of time or through one-off variation, become more valuable. HL makes not a dime on a secondary sale - that's yesterday's news to them. With the advent of open editions for virtually everything (and done within months of an LE), HL has all but assured excitement about the past will no longer propel the future. To reverse the old George Allen phrase - the past - in the form of an OE - is now.

As some folks know, I've written extensively on the value of rarity in the creation of mystique and its power to drive the acquisitiveness which is at the heart of Collecting. Face it - the thrill based on scarcity is gone. Sure HL methodically stamps out marvelous replicas - they continue to get better year after year and there are truly many little gems among them. But the target audience is now the giftware buyer. Desirability based on scarcity is a thing of the past. There are more than enough of almost every model to go around - and if there isn't HL will sell you a 'close enough'. HL will make anything they think will sell. They successfully built their reputation on the back of the Collector, but a thriving secondary market is no longer needed to maintain their current momentum. I think this point is obvious as there is no thriving secondary market - ie, a market based on price appreciation - and has not been one for a few years now, and HL is showing no signs of being adversely affected. This message is not intended to say anything negative about HL, but simply lay out my view that a secondary market is no longer a necessary condition to their success, as it was in the past.

Long term Collectors came to the line because of the secondary market. There are fewer and fewer *new* long term collectors. This is reflected in the forum audience itself. How oftern have we seen folks burst on the scene bubbling with excitement which lasts for a year-and-a-half, sometimes three. Sure, there are some who become permanent community members, but the number who do grows fewer.

Quote:

Tim I hope your wrong about Harbour Lights and their lack of the need to produce limited editions.

Perhaps I am wrong. However, at this point I think HL could take off the numbering on what are today LEs, and it wouldn't make any difference, because the 'Limited' part no longer drives sales to all but a few. Or put differently, there is no long term value in the Limited Editions of today, because there is no long term Collector marketplace. I'll guess HL would prefer to do this as it would give them the flexibility to sell into success and to more quickly kill off less popular pieces once they 'sell their fill' - heck they've taken to doing the latter anyway, by discontinuing a run before its full size is met. Maybe things will change - that's been the mantra of old line collectors like Sean and myself for the last several years - who knows what the future will bring. Maybe at last Goat Island will be sought after on a thriving secondary market - who knows. :-)

Excuse me for getting a bit off topic for this thread - sometimes that happens in the fog.

T

Amen to the above, but, I would like to be considered one of the old timers that belives in the Limited Edition. I have been collecting since 1994 and consider myself fortunate to have all the LE pieces. The quest to get all the pieces was costly but I am the type that MUST do it one way or not do it at all. I will still collect until such time as it no longer becomes fun or I start to see total disregard for the true collector from Harbour Lights. I am starting to see a little disregard in the GLOW line as they bring out GLOWS almost imediately after the LE retires and this does not even give the LE a fair chance to build up a secondary market. The LLOM Line and now the new Guardian Line will further take Harbour Lights away from the collectible market and more towards the gift Market. This move is also showing less respect for the hard line collector of LE pieces that built the business for Harbour Lights. By the time the disrepect for the LE collector gets to be too much for me I will either not be able to afford the costs or will be out of curio space.

My opinion of course.

Rich

Seems to me that in a nutshell, HL can no longer afford to run the company by producing LE's only, especially in the lower edition sizes. Like it or not, the glory days are over. All the debates that take place here in the forums over the various "lines" that HL now produces stem from the range of collectors, from "long term, hard core" types to the "newbie" types and those in between. Some want LE's exclusively, some want alternatives as long as they are a quality product. Can't please everyone. Only the individual collector of any type, vintage can decide for himself whether to stick with HL.

Not knowing the link was gone, I told a fellow I met at Marblehead this morning about the link to the forums, talked to him about Harbour Lights. He isn't into collecting as yet, but I found the forums by that link and can I tell you I have bought more H.L. since Nov. than the previous 2 years, plus the events, plus getting on Autoship, plus--------------------- IMO the two make a nice fit, the forum is a GREAT advertisement for Harbour Lights, most of thier history and new products, values etc. I learned right here. Sure would like to see a compromise! Does this mean HL will drop all mention of the forums and all the good work the Wackos do from the Legacy?

There was just a question about Chats in another forum which brought something to mind.

Do you think there will effect on the Chats since quite often they discuss things that might also upset the Dealers? will they have to leave the Official HL site also?

Also, is there any plan to remove the link to the Official HL site from the Forums?

Dennis

I found an auto ship dealer with a very low number because of the forums. If I had not found the forums I would not have opted for auto ship and I would not have more that two or three Harbour Lights. I found the forums through the HL web site. I now have over 120 HL's and about half were bought here and the rest at retail from dealers recommended here on the forums. I think Harbour Lights is not only hurting themselves but the dealers whose interest this action is supposed to be helping by dropping the link. With a glut of LE's sitting on dealers shelves, you would think that Harbour Lights would want to keep the link that has fueled ours and future newbies wacko desire for their product like no other link they have on thier site. I have only bought 2 HLs from a retired at retail link. but I have bought from several different dealers mentioned here in the forums.

I understand the catch 22 they face with their dealers but the dealers need to realize the impact the forums have on their sales. If I hadn't found that there were people as obsessed as me, I would have listened to my wife's concern that my obsession was somehow wierd and unacceptable for any reasonalbe adult. It may very well be true, but you all provided some sense of rationalization for my wacko spending spree. I have no doubt that the forums have fueled my addiction.

Is it any inconvience for me not to have the link? No, I had already bookmarked the forums. And to be honest, I only look at the HL site now when I link into the chats. Drop the marketplace, keep the marketplace, drop the link, keep the link, it doesn't matter to me either way. I'll just sell my extra lights on e-bay if I have to. But the potential loss of some of the future newbies is a shame because the input from all different kinds of people is what makes the forums so great. IMHO Harbour Lights is only hurting themselves and their dealers by dropping the link. Will it effect my purchasing? no way. Could it affect potential new wackos purchases, absolutly!

Dale

I'm sorry to see the CF link dropped from the HL site. I felt that link generated more interest in collecting HL's. It introduced new people/wackos/HL buyers to the greatest collectible in the world. It allowed outsiders to visit and see the fun they were missing making them want to become a member of the HL Family of Friends. It afforded them an opportunity to see that everyone was welcome to join the family. It stimulated people to reach into their wallets and buy HL products through their area dealers. It gave them an outlet to share their enthusiasm about their latest purchases of HL's. It taught them the importance of lighthouse preservation and how they could help.

Now a vital link to recruiting new members has been cut off. The recruitment office at www.harbourlights.com has been closed. We have now become a group within ourselves. Our only future new members will come from those who happen to stumble on to the CF or by word of mouth from a current member. This, in my opinion, will hurt HL sales at many dealers.

We can all speculate about what brought this on and why the CF link was removed. Should we have eliminated the Marketplace thread as a compromise? I say, NO! The Marketplace thread allows transfer of ownerships of many HL's. It allows people to hunt down retired pieces no longer available as dealers. It allows people to find that special HL to buy, and sometimes for a great price. It allows people to build their collections which in turn inspires more visits to HL dealers all over this great country of ours.

I would like to think that the Marketplace thread will always be there for all of us if we should exercise our right to part with some or all of our collectibles (HL's). Nothing makes a collector's juices flow better than finding a great deal on a piece he or she was looking for. If it can't be found at a dealer then there's a good chance you would be able to find one at the Marketplace.

In conclusion, I feel this was a bad move for HL. It's not often I find them at fault, but I will this time. This is a free country and they can do whatever they want. I suppose it's one of those "you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time." Time will tell if the visits to the HL site slow down. Many people started there to check out what was new on their way to the CF. Now that the link is gone, many potential hits on that counter will be lost.

Bob

All right Bob!!! We agreed on something after 5+ years. ROFLMAO!!!!!!! I have placed a note in my calendar.

Bob,
I would like to second that and see, it doesn't hurt too much to say that even Harbour Lights occasionally mi8ght make a mistake. All kidding aside, this was a real blunder on HL side and hopefully they will see their mistake and correct it.

Rich

Bob, I agree wholeheartedly with your synopsis. The link was a two way street. HL may never admit it, but they benenfit from the very existance of this website with or without the link(and all its peculiarities and members) far in excess of the cost (whoever is paying it) or the negatives (if any!). I've always been a little cynical of an attitude that HL could never do any wrong, because I've always viewed them as a corporation not an individual. When decisions are made, usually it's by and for the corporation no matter what friendly face is put forth. HL is good at what they do, but as a corporation rather than a mom & pop operation, they must also tow the line.

All the above IMHO.

Bob
Well said.
I totally agree with you. I also would like to add.
Cutting off the market place will not change a thing when it comes to collectors discounting Harbour lights. If collectors can't use the forum to sell, they will just use ebay and problally discount them even more. Lot of people on ebay do not know what they are doing and are often driving prices down more. The Forum is a safer place to buy and sell.
Ebay is listing between 300 to 500 Harbour lights a week. Why worry about a drip when there is a faucet running.

Hmmm.... Maybe now would be a good time to mention how many RETAILERS are selling pieces below suggested prices. And EBAY? I'm not even going to open that can of worms.
I'm in agreement with the rest of you, I think this was a bad decision. Plain and simple. I'll leave it at that.

Jared

It is a "No Brainer" that among the best salespersons any company has are current and satisfied customers.Harbour Lights has now cut the link between new and or potential costumers, and some of the best sales people they have.

I hope the dealer concern that is driving this change is not a case of putting grease on the squeeky wheel. That is like not seeing the forest for the trees. In the current economy you must think outside the box rather than box yourself in.

Big Mistake Harbour Lights !!!

Not intending to pour any salt in any wounds for HL, but there are a lot of good careful thinking in the above comments in this thread. It might be beneficial if one was sure that HL had reviewed them.

IMHO

We agree with the statement that HL's made a BIG mistake taking away the Collector Forums link on their website. Hopefully they will rethink their decision ONCE they see the comments made here at CF.
John & Mary

I'm sure that they read these forums and maybe with a little nudging from John and a point in the right direction this can be accomplished before too many new people will have missed their chance to benefit like the rest of us have.

Rich