HOLY SMOKES AM I HOT NOW.

Yes, I know I am yelling. It was stated recently that the forums had gone quiet and there was no controversy, well I'm going to start some right now. (In addition to the Reunion forum).

August 19, 2000 - The Orlando Regional Event

Two collectors had asked me to get buttons for them because they would not be able to attend any event due to logistics. I was happy to do so for them. I didn't want any money for them and wanted to do it as a favor to other devoted collectors. I was able to get three buttons - one for me, one for each of the guys even though they wanted two each, but that's all that was available and I got those extra two from people who said I could have theirs. Unfortunately some people didn't even get buttons because they ran out.

Now I know why!!!!!!!!!!

Before the event I asked if I could have 10 buttons to sell on the forum for the proceeds go to the memorial fund. I was told to wait until after the event so that all who wanted a button would get one and then I could have the extras. There were no extras. Well, now, the Tampa Bay Club is offering them for sale. We have members on this forum who have begged for a button and now the Club is selling them. I have no problem with the club getting buttons to sell to raise money, but they should have gotten what was left instead of taking them before the collectors got to the event.

When I got to the hotel, I had to wait on line for almost one hour to get into the event. Guess what, the Tampa Club had gotten there over an hour early and they were pemitted to go into the event room. I understand that some of the folks were helping out, but not everyone was. If I had been asked to help, I certainly would have loved to volunteer.

So, back to the buttons. The club had the buttons before the event and took many for themselves with the anticipation of selling them. If there were buttons available, after everyone received one, then it's fine for them to take the leftovers. I object to them being giving the buttons before before the guests arrived because not everyone who attend and wanted a button, received a button.

After reading about clubs being offered early reunion registration and now early distribution of buttons, I'm mad. When is a collector not equal to another collector? When one is in a club and the other is not.

Joanne

The Cruise Director of the General Forum (that's me) moved this because it should be in the Fog Signal Building. I couldn't see clearly because of all the steam I created, and put it in the wrong place.

Joanne

At each of the regional events, Harbour Lights has worked with collector clubs to help out. 300 buttons for each event were printed up, but no club ever has gotten the buttons in advance.

Harbour Lights told the clubs that they could have all the buttons left over after the event for fund-raising purposes.

In the case of the Orlando event, 300 buttons were taken to the event and 300 were distributed, leaving no left overs.

So Harbour Lights printed up an additional 50 buttons and sent them about 2 weeks ago to the club for their fund-raising. That's when the club posted the availability of those Orlando buttons on these forums.

The Tampa Bay Club came over on a bus and were allowed to enter early because they had been invited to help. Maybe there was nothing for some of them to do, but when you have a group traveling together all prepared to help, how can you permit a few to enter early and not let the whole group enter early?

And as for Clubs and the 2001 Reunion...

The early Reunion 2001 registration for Collector Club members was decided after the Legacy was mailed and was done because the Collector Clubs have been so helpful at these Regional Events.

As Bob Scroope has noted elsewhere, Harbour Lights does not expect to sell out the Reunion on October 14. They expect anyone who calls ready to register on October 14 will be able to so so.

And, HL believes, those calling will have a better chance of getting through by phone that day with some of the registrations already handled through clubs.

Sorry, still feel that there's a caste system developing.

Joanne

"And as for Clubs and the 2001 Reunion...

The early Reunion 2001 registration for Collector Club members was decided after the Legacy was mailed and was done because the Collector Clubs have been so helpful at these Regional Events.

As Bob Scroope has noted elsewhere, Harbour Lights does not expect to sell out the Reunion on October 14. They expect anyone who calls ready to register on October 14 will be able to so so.

And, HL believes, those calling will have a better chance of getting through by phone that day with some of the registrations already handled through clubs."


This statement above does not address the most important aspect of the issue- If this was the way they decided to do why did they not announce this information on the OFFICIAL HARBOUR LIGHT WEBSITE.

It is understandable that they could not get it into the the changes in the procedure out in the Legacy due to time constraints. It is not understandable why as of 6:41 PM EDT on 9-29-00 the OFFICIAL HARBOUR LIGHTS WEBSITE says the following in it's OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT about the 2001 Reunion Registration-

"Register: Telephone Registration will take place, first come, first served, on October 14, 2000, from 6 AM to Noon (Pacific Standard Time). We're sorry, but we cannot accept early registrations. Please have your credit card ready when you call, as we will take a 50% deposit at the time of registration."

I have come to agree with most that it's Harbour Lights party and they can make any rules they see fit to make. But, it's only right to make those rules known to all at least- even if all are not bound by them. It is immmaterial if they expect there to be spots at the end of the day on 10-14. they still had an obligation to their supporters to give them all the pertinent information.

I disagree with those who feel the Reunion is overpriced, but respect their opinion. I believe based on the stories of past Reunions, and the things listed as included in this one, that when you factor in the intangibles your are getting a bargain.

I have little care what number I get. Yes, some people will pay more for a lower number, but then some people collect barbed wire.

I agree that it is a hard task to balance completely fair treatment and rewarding those who have contributed to the cause above and beyond the norm. I don't think you can include everyone who joins one set of people and not those who chose not too. They may have actually done more outside of the organized group.

What's the answer? As with most things that include more than one option and more than one person there is no easy answer. There are very few things that you can get all to agree on. All you can do is try and let people know where you are coming from and stay consistent. You will find that even if people don't like your actions, they will respect you because you are being you and they know where you are goming from

All I can say is that it didn't happen that way at all of the Regionals. Our club worked very hard at assisting Harbour Lights with the days events at the Orange County Regional. We assisted with some setup, distributing buttons, and door prize tickets. I even personally helped assemble floor fans because the AC wasn't turned on in the room prior to the event(a missed Legacy Photo imho, LOL). When the event was over the club also removed all of the displayed Harbour Lights and repacked them. To sum it up, we all worked our tails off and had a great time doing it. As far as the buttons are concerned they were distributed one per customer. There were plenty left over after the event and Harbour Lights would not let the club have the remaining buttons that day. We were supposed to contact Mo at a later date to receive buttons for "Light House Preservation Fund Raising". I am not sure if this was done. Now that I'm thinking about it I will have to check. Harbour Lights was very trusting of the Club's Board Members to assure that the distribution of these buttons was fare. What really happened in Orlando with the buttons I can't address. The Orlando and Tampa Clubs will have to fight that battle. They are buttons for gosh sake. Sorry Rod, Don't take offense.



ps. Perhaps Nana is funding all those Airplane Flights with those Button Revenues.....LOL

[This message has been edited by SThompson (edited 09-29-2000).]

Wow we place ourselves on a pretty darn tall pedestal don't we? Lets not forget our non-connected brothers & sisters?

I think that an official announcement should or should have been made but certainly not just on this forum. Who really believes that we have 690+ active registered members on this forum? If you do I have a bridge I will sell you! A large amount of those numbers reflect users of the Marketplace. They use our forum to sell their lighthouses and never participate or add to this forum. Well maybe that could be another debate on its own.

Anyway please don't take personal offense to this post. We are in the debating forum and what I have written is Tongue in Cheek {tic} to get a rise out of those who read it.

My point is simply if we are debating fairness we should also be concerned with the fair notification of all collectors.

Don't Flame me, I'm a HL Collector family member!!



Sean

[This message has been edited by SThompson (edited 09-29-2000).]

Yes - this is the season for debates.

For the record, I like the people in the Tampa Bay Club very much and hope they raise a lot of money for their cause. It's not the individuals of the club or the club itself that I'm disappointed with -- it's the preferential treatment (or my perception of the treatment) that clubs are receiving that has me bothered.

Maybe I'll start my own club, the Fabry Circle Harbour Lights Club. Yea - that's the ticket. I'll be President, Secretary, Treasurer and CEO.

As for the cost of the reunion, yes,it's only my opinion, but arranging meetings and symposiums is part of what I do that for a living. I'm arranging a meeting right now and have to have engineers fly in from all over the world. I'm arranging the transportation after arrival, rooms, meals, meeting room, entertainment (virtual reality alien fight and games one night and combat paint ball the next). I managed to get a deluxe hotel in Orlando to drop the price of their $169 a night room to $89, give us free meeting room facilities, breakfast/lunch/two breaks a day for $28.50 per person. When it comes to arranging symposiums and meetings, I know what I'm talking about.

Joanne

Sean,

It's easy to get a rise when you take only part of a concept.

"This statement above does not address the most important aspect of the issue- If this was the way they decided to do why did they not announce this information on the OFFICIAL HARBOUR LIGHT WEBSITE.

It is understandable that they could not get it into the the changes in the procedure out in the Legacy due to time constraints. It is not understandable why as of 6:41 PM EDT on 9-29-00 the OFFICIAL HARBOUR LIGHTS WEBSITE says the following in it's OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT about the 2001 Reunion Registration-

"Register: Telephone Registration will take place, first come, first served, on October 14, 2000, from 6 AM to Noon (Pacific Standard Time). We're sorry, but we cannot accept early registrations. Please have your credit card ready when you call, as we will take a 50% deposit at the time of registration."

My point was that the website is an Official arm of Harbour lights and even if it was not possible to add the change in the rules into the printed version it is very possible to change the web version in seconds. Ithink it should have been done.

Does this give an edge in knowledge to the "connected" Yes it does. That aspect is unavoidable. But not every collector is a member of the Harbour Lights Society either and hence does not recieve the Legacy (I admit this number may be small).

I believe that every effort possible should have been made to make the change known in any way feasible. the easiest way that thic could be done was to change their Official announcement on the Webpage. i'm not asking for a second mailing to all members, although that would also be fairer to all, just not feasible due to time and monetary restraints.

There is adifference between the website and the forum. Not all people who go to the website continue on to the Forums The information in here is not "official" no matter how well connected some of the providers are (and they are usually top notch in their information).

i still think the witholding of information is what bothers some of us the most.

Dennis

Dennis, you miss my point. Harbour Lights has made no official announcement, period. I wrote Forum above when I actually meant Web Site.



If Harbour Lights ever decides to make a "Official Announcement" I am sure it will be on the Web Site as well as mailed to at least Society Members. And here again is yet another Group. Maybe there are people out there that don't want to be Society Members either.

Will the injustice ever cease? {tic}

LOL, you forget Dennis, I don't care for the secrecy either, but I do understand their good intentions.

Is this a plot by Cheryl Spencer Collins to disrupt the peace and tranquility that was once shared by HL Collectors? Is it an attempt to divide the brotherhood and sisterhood of the Collector's Society? Is it time for Mark to contact "Blind Tony"?

Bob

Since we're in the FSB and open for debate, I have to ask.

How does having an 'Official Announcement' of the policy to allow HL Collectors Clubs to register early for the 3rd Reunion change the registration options available for collectors who are not in a HL Collectors Club?

There are two things I'd want to know about this new policy. One, is it going to to be the norm for future Reunions? If it is, maybe I need to join a HL Collectors Club to give myself an additional registration option next time. Two, is it going to cost me a chance to go the 3rd Reunion. No way of knowing (and therefore no reason to get upset now) until AFTER I do 'registration roulette' on October 14th, successfully complete a phone call and get told that there are no slots left.

And getting through on the 14th and finding out that there are no slots left could happen even without the clubs early registration. HLs is adamently stating that they expect every one who wants to attend will be able to. But HLs, and yes, those of us here on the Forums, really can't say. I beleive that was the expectation for the 2nd Reunion as well and there was great deal of shucking and jiving to get everyone in at the end. The Youngers changed hotels to make rooms available, winding up several miles (and lots of lost sleep) away from the main hotel and festivities. People wound up as daytime attendees and made their own room arrangements. No one knows what will happen this time around.

With so many constituencies (HLCS members, Web site readers, Forum readers, club affliated collectors, non-affliated collectors, connected collectors, non-connected collectors, etc,) it's impossible to have a good feel for how many from each group might want to attend the Reunion. If there's any one place that the pulse of all of these groups gets taken, it's in El Cajon at the HL offices.

So here's my bottom line. Do I want to attend the the 3rd Harbour Lights Collectors Reunion in Baltimore?

Answer=YES. Do what I need to do to secure a place under the current process.

Answer=NO. Kick back with my favorite beverage and enjoy the rest of my life.

Answer=YES and I'm not successful? See Answer=NO.

Rick

A question regarding the reunion enrollment - I don't know the answer - are all club members being allowed to register early or only those who do have legitimate lighthouse business to attend to? Are the clubs who are actually involved in an event that day making it known to HL's, so only those members can register early? It seems that might be a more agreeable compromise than allowing all club members to register early. And another question - is the early registration only for HL's clubs or is it open to lighthouse clubs (i.e. NELL or FLA) who are made up of Harbour Lights Society members?

Joanne


Joanne

Rick,

I can basically agree with all you say- however ther is some room for discussion

"How does having an 'Official Announcement' of the policy to allow HL Collectors Clubs to register early for the 3rd Reunion change the registration options available for collectors who are not in a HL Collectors Club?"

In a direct cause and effect manner maybe nothing. In a perception of a fair and even chance to register- possillbly greatly. In a perception, I repeat a perception, of deception.

There is a statement in at least two places that are official HL's anouncements that state in simple, clear english that no early registrations are allowwed. that it is a first come first served registration. Either it is or it is not . One can not have their cake and eat it too.

I again agree that it is their party and they are inviting us to participate. As such they have every right to set the rules. We should have the right to know the rules we are playing by.

You are totally correct that even without early registration that some might be turned away. This is why I believe that maybe they should have been proactive, not reactive.

There has been a growth in Collectors. There may be a growth in those who wish to attend the Reunion. You are correct in your statment that it is too late to do anything about this reunion now. It is not too late to make our complaints known so that the next time these things may be considered, particularly if the worst case scenario happens and not all get in.

You are right there are many different groups to consider- I did my part to help one of the totally unconnected today while Volunteering today at Sandy Hook.

I was talking Lighthouses (Duh) and collections of replicas with a couple. The woman has an extensive HL collection, but had let her membership in the Society lapse.

She perked right up when i mentioned the Reunion in Baltimore. She has a computer so I sent her here to the site to get all the info that's fit to print. I told her there is a great deal of information to glean from among the posts in the forums. she was thrilled. I'm glad i was of assistance to her.

There is no perfect solution, but we can help fine tune it for the next time.

Dennis

Dennis,

I agree with what you say except for the line that it's their party and that we're invited to attend. My collector society membership and dues guarantee my "invitation".

Maybe I'm stubborn and hardheaded too, but I don't understand why everyone keeps calling it their party. It's the collectors' party, which the Youngers and Harbour Lights employees are kind enough to arrange. The attendees are paying to attend. We are paying for our rooms, we are paying for our meals, we are paying for the lighthouse excursions (forgive my use of "we"). The arrangements should be made with the best interest of all Collector Society Members. When a rule is made and announced as a "first come first serve" basis, it should be abided. You can't change the rules of the race once it's begun.

Joanne

First of all, I wasn’t going to put in my two cents on this topic, but I feel nothing is being gained by repeating the same things over and over. It is understandable that some people are upset over this topic, but people have stated their feelings and now it is time to move on. If someone hasn’t expressed their feelings directly to Harbour lights I suggest that they do so either by telephone, email or in writing.

Secondly, as to whose Reunion this is…. There is absolutely no question that this is Harbour Lights’ Reunion that we are invited to attend. The price may seem high to some but I’ll bet that the monies collected through registration don’t even come close to paying for the expenses. The added workload to their employees before, during and after the Reunion has to be a huge strain on a small company. When one joins the Society, it doesn’t say anything about a Reunion. The Reunion is something that Harbour Lights is offering as an added "thank you" to their collectors.

As to the stated fact on the Website that an individual can’t register early, that is still true. Individuals can’t register early, but the Presidents of the Harbour Lights collectors clubs that were contacted by Harbour Lights can pre-register their members. The clubs have helped Harbour Lights and Bill Younger with the Regional Events this year and this is just a small way that Harbour Lights is rewarding them. The Regional Events are for all collectors (both those in clubs and not in clubs) but the clubs have made the Regional Events succeed.

My final statement on this subject is that people need to check the accuracy of their facts before posting what they assume to be a fact. Not to pick on Joanne but the "button scenario" she described turned out to be in error. In fact it was another case of Maureen and Harbour Lights "going that extra mile" by having an additional 50 buttons produced (at Harbour Lights expense) so the club could raise some money to help them in their lighthouse restoration efforts.

Paul L Brady

Your right Paul, I didn't know all the facts, but neither do you. Prior to the event, I contacted HL's and asked for buttons if there were any left so I could offer them for $5.00 on the forum to raise money for the Memorial fund. (this was to be separate from the buttons I was asked to get as favors to two collectors). I was assured that it would be taken care of. I got to the event and I said I was offered 10 buttons to sell on the forum to raise money. David said to wait until after the attendees had what they wanted and then I could get what ever I wanted. I said that's absolutely fair and assumed I would get only leftovers and not any prior to the event. There were no left overs and I was not offered 10 buttons after the fact. There are others who can attest to the fact that I did want buttons to raise money for the forum fund and did not get the buttons -- not before, not after, not four weeks after. So let's not speak of having facts. I probably still have the emails to back up my statements. No one ever contacted me to ask if I would still like 10 buttons for my cause.

As far as whose reunion this is, that's my opinion and you're entitled to yours. But don't let your judgement be influenced by friendship or loyalty. The attendees are paying their way.

Joanne



[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 10-01-2000).]

Paul,

"As to the stated fact on the Website that an individual can’t register early, that is still true. Individuals can’t register early, but the Presidents of the Harbour Lights collectors clubs that were contacted by Harbour Lights can pre-register their members. The clubs have helped Harbour Lights and Bill Younger with the Regional Events this year and this is just a small way that Harbour Lights is rewarding them. The Regional Events are for all collectors (both those in clubs and not in clubs) but the clubs have made the Regional Events succeed."

Two questions
1. Does a person stop being an individual just because they are a member of a club? The information may come in on a common sheet, but it is still dealing with individuals. The fact that some individuals singly or collectively could register before other individuals should have been disclosed. The official annoucement on the official Harbour lights Website should have disclossed all the particulars, not just some.

2. "...The Regional Events are for all collectors ..."

Isn't the Reunion for all collectors also?

Just curious.

Three final points. Yes it is HL party. They make the rules. we should know what htose rules are.

It may be "their" party, but I always thought all collectors were part of "their".

I am disapointed in the way this aspect (and only this aspect ) was handled. I am sure no intentional slight was intended. this does not make it any less a slight to those who are not in the "special " group". This company has done many wonderful things for it's customers and for lighthouses. But so have many of the people who have chosen not to join a collectors club. Just as many who have joined, did so only to deal with the pieces, not the real thing. Neither group is nesacarrily better or worse than the other.

Everyone one has their own concerns that are paramount to them.

Dennis

My apologies to the Tampa Bay Club. Back in August I was given the wrong information and was misled by being told that the buttons were mailed one week ahead to the Tampa Bay Club. I have been contacted by Harbour Lights to find out what happened and was told that the local rep was sent the buttons, not the club, as I was originally told. Again, I apologize for the error.

Joanne

WOW! This is alot to read in one sitting! I'm going to make my response as short as possible! I am not part of a club and will try my best to get a spot on the 14th. I still think there will be room for everyone!

Remember folks, if this gets too ugly, there might not be a FOURTH REUNION!