First, I preface my comments with a disclaimer: I am not posting the following in an attempt to stir up trouble, or to cast any blight on the good name of Harbour Lights.

With that said, I can no longer bring myself to buy another Harbour Lights collectable. The reason is because most are made in communist China. I would surely hope that a company & its founder who are supposedly known for their good works would have made a smarter choice than to sell out to the Communists.

I know that's a harsh statement, but that's what it comes down to. In these trying times, now more than ever, every available job that needs to be done should be done in America. Barring that, at least a country that doesn't force worker to practice their craft at gun point.

Irregardless of the recent events involving our brave Servicemen & women, the Chineese government is an oppressive regime that encourages, amongst other things, slavery & the murder of infant girls.

I encourage all of you to call, write & email Mr. Younger & express your outrage that our beloved collectables are made in China. Encourage Mr. Younger to find an alternative supplier, preferably one right here at home.

Surely, not one of you can, in good conscience, continue to buy these figurines under these circunmstances, can you?

Welcome Crusader. I respect your opinion, but question the logic that underlies it.

I do not speak for the Youngers, but I have spoken with them several times in the past about where Harbour Lights are made -- the most recent time was while those aboard our aircraft were being held against their will a few weeks ago.

The collectibles industry is built around an international model. Very few modern collectibles are made in the USA. In fact, in my opinion, there would be no such industry without the ability to make them overseas at a much lower price than these same items could be made for here in the U.S.

I'd estimate that each limited edition lighthouse would cost the buyer 3 to 4 times its present price if they were made in the U.S. A $70 piece would sell for $210 to $280. A $13 little light would have to sell for $39 to $52 each. How many pieces would you buy at those prices?

The implication of your statement is that these products COULD be produced in the U.S. In fact, there are probably no U.S. companies that have the capability of making and painting these models in the quantities Harbour Lights orders.

From my conversations with the Youngers about Chinese production and stories about poor working conditions - even child labor - for some US sold products, they assured me that they are VERY conscious of these factors and that they would NEVER place production in a facility that employed children or prisoners.

They have been solicited by such facilities, but they always inspect the proposed company's facilities before placing business. And they HAVE turned around and walked out immediately when these situations became obvious.

Now with the recent problem over the forcing down of our spy plane and crew, the fact that the government of China is Communist seems to have become more prominent. It has been Communist since the 1940s, of course. At times more domineering than at others over their people.

I am not apologizing for the Chinese government nor for the Youngers' choice to have Harbour Lights manufacturing done in China.

But if you choose to boycott Harbour Lights, you will need to make the same choices for other products that are made in China and sold in the United States. Don't eat at McDonalds or most any fast-food restaurant that gives out 'toys' with kids meals. Almost all of these are made in China. Look carefully at the dinner ware you eat on in restaurants - or those you have bought for your home. Look at the cloth napkins and placemats. Wonder how you can buy a portable CD player for $29? My Logitech wireless mouse is made in China. The halogen desk light I have is made in China. The "Massachusetts State Police" coffee mug sent as a gift by another Forum member was made in China. A similar coffee mug given out by my bank was made in China. The universal remote control for my TV was made in China.

The Chinese and US economies are very reliant on one another. We do not have to agree with the form of Government a trading partner has in order to conduct business with it. The more our economies are intertwined, in fact, the more indirect pressure we may be able to place on our trading partner.


[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 05-05-2001).]

...and that indirect pressure you refer to is paramount. ALL of us can do our part.

First, thank you for responding to my post. Second, I am aware of the problem one may have in trying to live a 100% "Chineese-free" existance today. Yes, that does mean that many places of business will not get my business, including the ones you mention, because of their association with the Chineese.

However, it has led me to a realization, of sorts. Whenever i'm cruising Wal-Mart or Target, I religiously buy American. However, when I encounter a product that is made in China & there aren't any non-Chineese alternatives around, the first thing I do is re-evaluate my desire to have that product in the first place. I find 9 times out of 10 that I really don't need it after all. Of course, I go to the courtesy desk & request that they start carrying an American or non-Chineese equivalent.

Sure, I may have to pay more, but it's worth it.

Not to cast any doubt or aspertions on your comments, but I trust that you speak the truth when you say the Youngers are sensitive to what's happening in some Chineese "sweat-shops". I hope you are correct in stating that they do not employ these places top make the lighthouses. However, I caution you that Nike & Kathie Lee Gifford made the same claims as well about their products. You know what happened in the end.

My statements are not about the "logic" of the collectable industry, but about right & wrong. It is my firm belief that doing business with the communists is morally & ethically wrong.

Thank you for your comments.

Very well stated John... I don't know about the rest of you here...but I have a problem with a person who writes this type of post and does not even stand by their words by publishing their name. All of the people here that I have spoken with are all "VERY PROUD AMERICANS" and have not had a problem putting their names here... Your first statement "I preface my comments with a disclaimer: I am not posting the following in an attempt to stir up trouble, or to cast any blight on the good name of Harbour Lights." That is exactly why you posted this here... This is a "collector's site." Not a political forum. I'm sure there are many other places you could find to post these same comments. I for one do not lend much credence to "anonymous" comments. Any name you would add after this post I'm sure will not be your own. I don't mean to be "harsh"...but why don't you get off your soapbox and go someplace else to spout off.


Ruthie

I'm sorry you feel this way. It seems you're mad at the messenger instead of heeding the message.

I do not & will not include my real name, as I am not required to do so. Doing that on the internet is a risky proposition; one that I hope a prudent person wouldn't do. However, that doesn't mean that my comments are less valid or less heartfelt. Your name isn't Mrs TLC, now is it?

Please re-read my message, this time with less bias & an open mind. Thank you.

I very much agree with the reply posted by John Chidester. The Younger Family are some of the nicest people you could ever meet. I have complete faith in their business practices and truly believe their business relationships with the Chinese does not involve any type of "slave" labor.

Crusader, it's nice to have a crusade you believe in, but certain things should not be discussed at a forum about collectible lighthouses and the actual lighthouses.

I notice you are definitely a newcomer to the Collector Forum with 3 posts so far. The CF welcomes all to this very informative bulletin board. I respect your right to speak your mind on a controversial issue but I don't think this is the forum to do it in. I hope you will continue to visit us with comments and discussion relating to the intended purpose of the CF.

Bob

Dear Mr. Crusader:

I'm certain I have an opinion on this subject but i use this forum in part to escape that part of life. However, i do have a comment for such a thoughtfully worded piece you wrote...........there is no such word as irregardless. It's simply regardless.

That's about as deep as i want to get!

Happy collecting........

Very simple! I will always trust and stand behind HL's and everyone here on this forum. I will continue to purchase HL's products even if they start producing them on Mars (it's red there too). If I was to live a "China Free" lifestyle, then I might as well move into one of my graves (of course I better not dig too deep or I might end up in China)!

If you feel that strong Crusader about slave labor then you better check further. You will probably find some labels marked Germany or Japan in your house and we know they didn't use "slave labor"!!!!!!

This doesn’t make any sense at all. How long have you been collecting Harbour Lights? It isn’t like they just began manufacturing Harbour Lights in China. I believe that Selkirk released 10/95 and Currituck released 11/95 were the first Harbour Lights lighthouses manufactured entirely in China. The Hatteras Open Edition was started in Malaysia and moved to China for production also in 1995. Why now the sudden outrage? By the way, they now are 100% made in China.

John stated very well and accurately about how carefully Harbour Lights selects those who will do their manufacturing. I know well the Youngers and trust their judgment that they will not only find the people who do the best quality work but also those who have good working conditions.



You start with this disclaimer but then do exactly the opposite by encouraging everyone to write or call Mr. Younger and state their outrage to him about using China as his place of manufacturing Harbour Lights.



I can and will, with good conscience, continue to buy Harbour Lights lighthouses. The Youngers are a very caring family and they care about their staff at El Cajon, their collectors as well as the craftsmen who make their product in China.

I personally think that the reason the recent incident is being resolved quickly (yes, it is quickly), is because of the economies between the two countries.

John stated this very well (below)…



Paul L Brady

Crusader, I'm as anti-Communist as anyone, however, we live with a global-economy that is probably here, to stay, for along time to come.
I've been collecting Harbour Lights for the full 10 years that they have been in production and I've seen them made in California, Canada, Malasia, and now, China. IMHO, I believe that these "moves" were for purely economic and quality reasons. As was stated above, the cost would be prohibitive if made in the states and then where would we all be?
Of final note.....back in the days of Mao and the Red Guard, China was truly a dangerous, issolationist country that was totally out of control....atleast with the economic ties that we have with them I can't help but feel that it keeps them "in check" to some extent.

The pot has been stirred. We gather in these forums because we share a common love - for Harbour Lights and for lighthouses.

When the things we love are criticized, then many will 'take offense' with either the message or the messenger or both. It's only natural. You are an 'outsider' by definition, Crusader -- a 'newbie' who arrives to announce a boycott that he/she wants others to join in for the product that brought us all together here. A bit like yelling 'FIRE' in a movie theater.

This isn't a criticism - just an explanation of why things are unfolding as they are in this thread.

You are entitled to be anonymous, Crusader. If you were a 'regular' who had been posting for some time and your opinion came as a 'reversal' of your feelings in light of the recent spy plane incident, then perhaps your comments would carry more 'weight' with other regulars.

While you could be a regular who has chosen to become anonymous for this thread, I rather suspect that is not the case. MrsTLC is well know to us regulars by her real name and for her posts, etc.

If, as a newbie you started a thread that asked what others think about having Harbour Lights produced in a Communist country, you might have gotten some thoughtful responses.

Parts of your most recent post -- about buying American at Wal-Mart -- seems to indicate that it's not just Chinese-made items that offend you, but almost anything made anywhere but the USA. If that is the case, then your job of buying ONLY American-made products will indeed be a tough one to follow. I don't think there is a TV or VCR that is made in the US any longer - although there may be an exception.

The North American continent is the largest free-trade zone in the world, I believe. Movement is underway to make the whole Western Hemisphere a free-trade zone.

General Motors partners with car makers around the world. Volkswagen New Beetles are made in Mexico. Chrysler 'merged' with Daimler-Benz. etc. etc.

Again, I honestly welcome you to the forums and agree with your right to voice your opinions here. I don't agree with your opinions, but that's my right.

If you want to do more good with how one country treats its citizens, try visiting www.amnesty.org/

Dear "Crusader"...

Along the same lines of MCI1231 ( ), I believe the word that you were looking for was "CHINESE", not "CHINEESE" . Outside of that, I think that John (JChidester), Paul (engbrady) and Bob M. pretty much covered everything else...thank you, gentlemen. (I know...this is a bit of a smart-alec post, but I couldn't help it...sorry ).

--Jeff

[This message has been edited by JCRice (edited 05-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by JCRice (edited 05-07-2001).]

In some things I agree I try to buy american or canadian when ever possible.There are other considerations.have you ever looked closely at Chinese or Japanese art work to see the minute details in every piece.To the asians time means nothing and they have the patience to do this fine and tedious work.All asians do not have the talent and ability to do this fine work.The chinese have been at this for thousands of years so I respect thier ability compare the details in the early HL's and todays I dont believe you would see this detail if they were still made in north america or else the price range would be out of sight and we would probably have to import asian artisans to do it.Bill O'Brien

I will try to respond to as many posts as possible.

First, the unpleasantries: I would hope that as mature adults, we would not become so petty as to respond to my posts with criticisms with my spelling. I'm sure my grandchildren spell better that I do, but so be it.

Next: No, I haven't been collecting HL's from the beginning. The poster's (engbrady)tone in that question makes me think that this bulletin board, regardless of those who state otherwise, is the domain of a fairly exculsive "cliche"; one that is not open-minded to new people with new ideas & perspective. I find that unfortunate. I have been collecting HL's since 1998 & have amassed a fair collection. Therefore, most of my pieces are made by the communists.

Regarding this forum being the appropriate place to discuss this issue: Of course it is! Why isn't it? This board is utilized by those who fervently collect HL's & you are the people I wish to address!

However, I can understand how my posts are being regarded, which is, that some new person has come on here & is asking people to take certain actions against their beloved collectables. So be it.

Since all of you are comfortable with you choice, I wish all of you well. God Bless.

John, once again you have eloquently expressed the views of the Forum much better than I ever could.

I think that no good ever came from harsh words or veiled threats. I have worked with many exchange engineers from China and they have always been extremely polite, very kind and very fond of the American way of life. The fact that the strong talk of recent politics has found it's way to our forum, disappoints me. This is a time for level headedness and thought to come before rash comments and threats.

I know that Younger & Associates has put a lot of time and effort into finding the best manufacturer possible. If Crusader has ever heard Bill talk of the HL history, he'd know that. I have no intention of inflicting my political beliefs on their business practices.

Joanne

I moved this to the Fog Signal Building. I think it's more appropriate here than in the General Forum.

Joanne

Thank God, we live in America where we can have our opinions aired publicly.

I like many others who write on this board fought battles for our freedom and the freedom of people who do not always agree with us and we did so without second thoughts. Mine was fighting what appeared to be an endless battle in NAM.

I am proud to be am American and always proud when I see someone able to take a stand that may not agree with mine, but By God I fought to perserve that right for all Americans.


Even the right to spell incorrectly(Which I do all the time).

FREEDOM: protect,perserve, cherish and defend it, don't ever let it be taken away from us.

God Bless America

Bob




[This message has been edited by Bob St. Clair (edited 05-07-2001).]

Don't post anything if you "disclaim it" and are afraid to be to be known!

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[This message has been edited by pharologst (edited 05-08-2001).]

Take my Moo Goo Gai Pan, but please, don't take my Harbour Lights!

Mike

I don't believe you!

It's old news that Harbour Lights are produced in China. It's old news that many products are produced in China. Hop off your soapbox and don't buy them. That's your choice! I am proud to be an American, I am not wearing a Cape with a Big "S" on the back, I am simply lucky to have been born in this country. If you feel you have the cure for world hunger and fair and equal treatment for everyone I will follow. I will not feel guilty for enjoying my Harbour Lights collection because of your opinions!

Take your agenda elsewhere and find a bigger fish to fry!

IMHO

Why do I always drag myself into these things?

I have to throw in a few things, I just can't sit by on this one.

Harbour Lights are made in Communist China. So be it! So are our shirts, toys, electronics, etc., etc., so on and so forth. It's part of life! Just because a country is not just like ours doesn't mean it's evil, and over the years China HAS made some steps in making life better for their people. Most of us have been raised in a Cold War atomosphere and just because someone is a "Damn Commie", we automatically think they are a bad person. It's just a basic fact of life that most of the manufactured products in this country are maunfactured in China.
I have, like you Crusader, been collecting since 1998 (so, yes, most of my collection has the little "Made in China" sticker). I have been invovled in these forums for about 3 years now, and I feel that if any "clique" exists, it is among people who frequently post, or frequently participate in the weekly chats. Just because you burst in with your 1st post and expect everybody give you the same attention as someone who's been involved for a time, doesn't mean it's going to happen. This group has no problem accepting new people, regardless of age location, race, etc. And if they do, they have the common courteousy to keep it to themselves. I feel that you need to gain some credibility, let people get to know you. When you posted, no doubt you were a complete stranger, and if a complete stranger came up to you and said "Stop doing this." Would you give it any thought? I wouldn't!
And I love America. It is my home, and I'm glad it is. It is one of the best countries in the world, and I love the fact that our country has a constitution that guarantees us rights others in the world don't have. But just because a country doesn't have them, mean they're bad.
Finally, knowing the Youngers, I highly doubt that they would accept their product being made in terrible conditions. To know that that is happening in the manufacture of your product, you have to have a cold heart. And TRUST ME Crusader, these are some of the warmest people I know! They also send someone over to China quite frequently (I think every month?) to inspect their operations there. I assure you, if the conditions did not meet their approval, Harbour Lights would not be manufactured there.

Whew! That was a biggun!

Stephen (Jakers)

PS- And If you still think that it's such and exclusive group, keep this in mind: When I first started on these forums, I was 13 years old. And let me tell you, I was actually quite surprised that I was accepted so warmly. In most other places like this, I think it would've gone differently. Many time have I discussed my interests with adults, and I have come across my fair share of those who just see me as "some kid." These people in this forum got to know me, instead of just shunning me. That is a testament to what a great bunch this is!


[This message has been edited by Jake (edited 05-07-2001).]

Ditto John, Paul, Sean, etc.

"Therefore, most of my pieces are made by the communists." I try to refrain from ignorant statements, but this can't go unchallenged. Crusader... the government is communist, not the entire nation of China. Most of those poor people who work in those shops don't even know what communism is. All they are trying to do is provide for their family needs. They were unfortunately born in that country. They don't have the luxury as you and me to turn on a TV and catch up on the latest news about our government, or read a paper about what a particular government official is doing. They don't have the same right as you and me to walk into a booth and choose a leader to run their country.

Before you continue with another clueless post, allow me to introduce you to my secretary, Wen Lin Chang. She lived the life described above for most of her 40 years. She was able to leave China and come to the U.S. to start a new life. She worked in one of those sweat shops, along with many of her family members. It was the only means they had to provide for themselves. They didn't know what communism was. Their biggest concern was to feed their family and themselves. Without that job, they would starve, so they worked hard to keep it. If they didn't, they knew there were a hundred others who were waiting in line to take it. Wen isn't communist, never was. She just had the misfortune of being born in a country that is.

"Since all of you are comfortable with you choice, I wish all of you well." Very much so thank you, and I plan on continuing to collect. I'm about as patriotic as an American can possibly get. I served my country (as many here who have) for twenty years. No regrets here in purchasing a product made in China. By the way, may I suggest you give up the computer you are typing on since most, if not all of it's hardware came from China?!

I also find it rather hypocritical for someone to boycott a company for having figurines made in China, and keep those which he has already acquired. I'm sure you plan on selling your entire collection in order to maintain your standards.

One other thing... before you go and use God's name here, you remember this. God created people, not governments. He created man in His own image, and that includes the Chinese. Have you earnestly prayed for these people, and the government which they must live under?

Tim - Keeping the flame lit...

The simple fact is, we all make our own choices, day by day, hour by hour. I consider myself a truly proud American, and yet I am faced with compromises to my pride daily. I work for a Japanese company. It took me many years to accept this fact. Sometimes, I still struggle with it. I try to "buy American" whenever possible, but lets face the facts, it's getting harder to do. Even in the "American" cars we drive, there are parts made by foriegn companies.

Everyone has to choose there own battles. If boycotting Harbour Lights makes one person feel better, then thats what they should do. But I am one of those that agrees that there are bigger fish to fry.

Mike

I walk in the mall and see teenagers with rings in their noses, eyebrows, tongues, and with purple hair spiked into points like the Statue of Liberty, and I wonder what we'll be facing in 20 years . And then someone like our Stephen (Jakers) comes along and makes me realize that we have nothing to worry about.

Joanne

True Joanne, but unfortunately our Stephen is a rarity this day and age. We can certainly thank his parents for the great job they have done in raising their son. Okay Stephen... don't let this go to your head.

Tim - Keeping the flame lit...

Stephen, it's great to hear your opinions. I'm sure you echo a lot of mine if I was willing to express them.
As for the boycott, our guys are back safe and well treated. I didn't eat Chinese food and I didn't buy any new HLs(none were available) for the duration of the hostage situation.
I think it's more important for Jaker's and my descendant's future that we learn to deal with a country the size of China(both population and territorial -wise.) HL has obviously found a way.
Now since this serious situation is over allow me to pass on a joke if you haven't heard it.
As for the plane, the joke going around was that 1) it could have been stripped faster in the Bronx and 2)when the Chinese were checking all the parts, they found that they were already theirsmade in China.
That's my opinion, the same as all those above which we are allowed to express in our country which I am thankful for.

Crusader, If you decide to not purchase any more Harbour Lights in the future because their made in China, that'll give you a few extra bucks now. You may now join my crusade to restore the 100% made in the USA, Pottawatomie Lighthouse. We are always accepting tax deductible contributions to be used to completely restore and open this lighthouse to educate the visitors on living in an off shore lighthouse. This will be one crusade we will be victorious!
Contact FORI, 126 Country Club Dr., Clintonville, WI 54929
Jim
Pottawatiomie Crusade Leader

Hey Jim, does that lighthouse have an American made Fresnel Lense in it? {tic}

Jake and Tourchbearer your comments were well spoken and I agree whole heartedly. The problem with ALL nations is the continuing prejudisism put on people because of their name or origin. As americans we all should know (with our last eight years being broadcast all over the papers and such) all nations have bad seeds and we have had our share of problems. But those people in those nations are not to blame and I'm proud to say I take the Christ example Turn the other cheek and love your neighbor no matter what because we all fall short. Not to say that I have not boycotted because I have, there are things I disbeleive but if we gave up Harbour Lights (and other things) who really would suffer??? I beleive you obtain more with sugar than pepper!

I talk alot but usually don't make sense hope this makes sense to you....lol


------------------
A DAY ISN'T A DAY UNLESS YOU'VE SEEN A LIGHT!!
LAINEY;)

Sorry all. Last time I disagreed with someone, I promised to keep my mouth shut.
Ziipppppp.

And Stephen, I refuse to vote for you till you reach 18

Rich

------------------

I have not posted on this forum in a very long time but come back to "read" whenever I get a chance. Unfortunately, that's not too often. All of you had some wonderful answers. Thank you for expressing yourselves so well.

Kathy

I work with a woman who was born in Communist China. She recently became an American citizen. We have had many discussions regarding the airplane incident. She told me the people of China do not want a war. Like it was said above, the people in China are just like us, trying to make a living and trying to provide for their families. We were more worried how the U.S. government would handle things.

I see no reason to jump to the conclusion that we need to boycott HL. Do you think the US was entirely faultless in this entire situation? Do you think we would care to have spy planes buzzing our borders? We don't need another cold war. We need more cooperation, understanding, and diplomacy.

By the way, my coworker has been trying to get permission for her mom and dad to leave China to visit her in the United States. Do you know which country is dragging its feet in allowing this? Is isn't the country they are trying to leave. It is the U.S.

My my ... I go outta town on business for a few days and a ruckus starts. Whew!

Back a few weeks ago, I actually wondered about the issue Mr. Crusader raises. Then I was thinking what if our servicemen went from being 'detainees' to hostages and a general China product boycott ensued - how would this affect Harbour Lights? And what would be their stance? If those service men and women were still being held, believe me there would be a lot of talk about boycotting Chinese made goods.

Yes occasionally principles matter - even when it affects our hobby. When all is said and done - at least in my opinion - collecting little plaster lighthouse models doesn't quite rank with human rights issues.

Its a legitimate topic for discussion. The Chinese government understands one thing and that is power. The United States has considerable economic power - it is been a primary diplomatic instrument we haven't hesistated to wield when it suits our need. Political ideology bends pretty easily when confronted with economic reality. China needs cash from the American market to continue its own agenda.

I won't comment further on Mr. Crusader's view. But I will express my surprise at the reaction of forum members to it. I am a tad embarassed at some of these replies. There are few responses here that actually speak to the issue at hand.

Messages a) attack Crusader for the way he expressed himself, or b) proclaim how wonderful the Younger family is, or c) deride his spelling or grammar, or d) note that goods made in Chinca are less expensive.

First off - the stuff about spelling and word usage are cheap shots that aren't needed here.

Second, just because someone doesn't post his real name shouldn't be a litmus test for acceptance. Many of us use psuedonyms or diminutives or some combination of letters and numbers. So what. Its the ideas of a person that matter. And as far as the FogSignal Building is concerned, all ideas are welcome - even anonymous or poorly presented ideas. (but please, stay within the bounds of public decorum) As far as I'm concerned, Crusader's topic is perfectly legitimate. In fact there are very few topics posted in this "forum about collectible lighthouses" which should be considered out of bounds. Yeah, we all love lighthouses and love to talk about them. But when you get down to it, the lighthouse thing and these forums are as much about bringing people together than anything else.

And yes the Younger family is a nice group of folks - no doubt about it. And yes, its simply smart business practice to keep an eye on the working conditions of those businesses with whom they contract. There has been plenty of adverse reaction to a variety people who put their name on a line of clothing made in sweatshops. Any businessman is gonna say they are sensitive to the issue, for not saying so can easily cause a backlash. But I doubt any small company without on-site presence has real insight to the day-to-day conditions under which *anything* is made by manual labor in China. This has nothing to do with the Youngers being nice people.

For folks arguing that its OK for HL to have their lighthouses made in China because a bunch of other stuff we buy is made in China - well this argument kinda misses the point doesn't it? No debating prizes here.

I'm not trying to defend Crusader's ideas - I was just taken aback by some of the thoughtless responses. (Yeah? well they were.) If you see this message Mr. Crusader, don't consider what you've read as typical of the conversations we have here. Our group, like most groups, occasionally reacts with a herd mentality and does act cliquey on occasion. But we're also, on occasion, reasonable and thoughtful - and most of the time pretty darn friendly. I hope you return to discuss collecting, or anything else you wish.

Now somewhere in all this, isn't there a point to made about Glows? ROFL!!

From the FogSignal Building,
__
/im

PS - if you want to read a good yarn that is contemporary to this topic, check Tom Clancy's "The Bear and the Dragon".

[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 05-12-2001).]

THANK- YOU, Tim:
Beautifully written and thought out!
I too was disappointed by the reaction to Crusader. He does have a point and it should have been respected - name or no name - IT WAS ONLY AN OPINION -
We love our LH's, our USA's and our BY's. Lets be civil and put it in perspective.
My name is Joe.

Ok, slapped on the wrist. Now Tim, whats your opinion about Harbour Lights being made in China regardless of American's being held hostage, and have you considered not collecting anymore? I don't think the fact that a few american's being held hostage for spying on a foreign country should be the only reason to make up your minds on this issue. I think the point missed on how some of us responded is all the little facts that were not added up that sparked our criticisms.

1) UserName - Crusader
2) Location - Proud American
3) Complete annonimity
4) 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th post all in this thread.
5) Ridiculous disclaimer
6) Implications that workers are forced to work at gun point, slavery & murder of infant girls.
7) A call to write Mr. Younger to express our outrage over chinese production.

Sorry Tim, but I read this post as nothing more than one of those Chain Mail E-mails that I have been recieving rewritten for this bulletin board. I do not feel this person is a member of the Harbour Lights Collectors Community. I feel that this post was only placed here to stir up trouble and to state an agenda. When I add up clues 1-6 and a few others, I am certainly not embarrassed to feel the way I did about this post. Maybe I am being to judgemental but to discuss an issue seems to be a little different than the way Crusader made their remarks. It is without any doubt in my mind that if Harbour Lights has an alternative to make these products outside of China it is an ongoing concern for them to do so. Is there anybody here that thinks this is not the case? And lastly I also hope that Crusader decides to return and "discuss" collecting though it sounds like collecting is now out of the question.

I certainly understand what you are saying Timoteo, but I have no regrets for what I have written, but in fact, stand by my words.

The first problem I had with the post in question is that someone collects HLs for some time knowing they are made in "Communist China" but only after an incident three years later did they begin boycotting HL? Sorry, but that is hypocritical, and the credibility of their comments ceased then and there. Secondly, don't try to put me on a guilt trip because their personal convictions may be a bit different from mine. I again quote, "Surely, not one of you can, in good conscience, continue to buy these figurines under these circumstances, can you?" The circumstances haven't changed. The government of China was just as much Communistic in 1998 as it is now. I agree, Communism is terrible. God knows, these poor people who must live under fear day in and day out are truly the victims.

I don't agree with the cheap shots taken in other posts. We all at times get carried away with comments we may later regret making. Thank the Lord we live in a country where we can express ourselves, no matter how much someone may disagree. But at the same time, if I do disagree, and considering the fact that I do live in a country where I can express myself, then expect a rebuttal. One hopefully made in good conscience, and not in anger.

Tim - Keeping the flame lit...



[This message has been edited by Torchbearer (edited 05-12-2001).]

>>The circumstances haven't changed. The government of China was just as much Communistic in 1998 as it is now. <<

That's a good point. I'd suggest its not easy to formulate opinions we can be wholly consistent in following throughout our lives. Thats part of what it means to 'change your mind' or become convinced that what you once thought may no longer be the view you want to hold today.

I have no idea what Crusader thought in 1998, so I'm reluctant to label him a hypocrite. If he is indeed being hypocritical that is still a comment about the messenger and not his message. For example, even if I've told a fib in my lifetime, it doesn't preclude me from teaching my children not to lie, nor entirely mitigate the credibility of my intent in doing so.

Instead of our precious lighthouse models, if the fellow had spoke about boycotting tennis shoes or DVD players or Scud missles would the point he was trying to make (albeit awkwardly) have been any different? I don't think so - others may consider otherwise.

If the topic is Communism vs. Democracy, or how capitalism can impact world politics I'm not sure what "bigger fish" there are that Mr. Crusader be suggested to go fry. Where *does* one draw the line in providing indirect support to a company or a country one believes is evil? Perhaps too weighty a question for this forum - but hey - this is the FSB. Is tree-spiking by an environmentalist who believes the logging company is morally wrong any different than boycotting a product made in a country who's politics one doesn't accept? I don't know. But just because the context of the issue that was raised hits close to our display cabinets doesn't mean the person who raised it should be chastised for doing so.

I guess I see so much 'political correctness' around me that I'm amused by the reactions when it comes a little close to home for convenience. I also admired the fellow's hutzpah (balls - can I say balls here?) in just raising the issue. I almost raised it myself - of course it would have been done in a refined and stylistic way. ROFL!

I do understand that in a public forum you'll get all sorts of responses - and the group here (myself included) can get rather emotive - even over the subject of lighthouse models. So - the airmen are home and Crusader's been run off - probably not coming back - we can return now to more benign topics. :-)

__
/im


[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 05-13-2001).]

Benign Topics? ROFL, we think mighty highly of the importance of this forum me thinks. In all seriousness Tim, I was hoping that you would elaborate more on your opinion of where you stand on this issue of "Buy or not to Buy".

Mike summed it up best for me with his statement;



IMHO, this is what it all comes down to. None of us are waving flags with pride that Harbour Light Lighthouses are produced in China. We would all be much more happy if they were not I'm sure. I doubt that there is much debate on this whole subject because quite frankly we are all guilty, plain and simple. You can't draw a simple line in the sand with this topic. If your going to boycott Harbour Lights then you can't stop there. You have to go all the way or your not being true to your convictions of why you are boycotting. Heck I bought a darn Cuisinart Ice Cream Maker at Sam's Warehouse last week that was, you guessed it, made in China. Even the scoop was made in China. Now I can't even enjoy a treat without feeling socially/morally/ethically challenged. Oh great not only do I now have to worry about putting on weight I now also have to worry that somebody was forced to make this thing at gun point just so an American Yankee can stuff ice cream in his mouth. I guess I will have to secretly treat myself in the closet. Please, nobody tell my neighbors or they might throw Knudson's (Old Wisconsin made Brand I think if my memory serves me) Ice Cream at my House.

Nobody here has requested that Crusader's Posts be removed, edited or sensored in any way. I am not suprised at the responses made in this forum. This forum runs just like a Town Meeting, have you ever been to one of those, if you haven't then you have missed all the excitement. Many things are said swiftly with little thought or concern for hurting other peoples feelings. I imagine that perhaps our Government/Congress works pretty much the same way. The nice thing is that it comes out and then people go to work trying to solve the problems at hand. There is only a couple of ways to solve this problem, China cleans up it's act or American Companies go elsewhere for production of affordable goods.

We all make choices in our lives, I choose to collect Harbour Lights! When I see proof that any of the Harbour Light production processes are taking advantage of the Chinese people then I will be glad to join a boycott. Until then allow me to live in my own fantasy or even the reality that Harbour Lights is providing a holesome income for these perhaps less fortunate people that may not have another means of employment or a means to provide for their families.

imho

First of all, Tim, I would prefer that you not use the term b…. in the forum’s. It takes absolutely no chutzpah (chutz•pah "hut-spe, "kut-, -(')spa\ n : supreme self-confidence) to post a statement on the Internet when it is done with total anonymity as was the case with Crusader’s post. In fact, it is the easiest way for someone with no chutzpah to obtain an audience.

The following is a quote from Crusader’s response to some of the other forum members. This part is in response to one of my questions, which his chose not to answer but instead label others and myself. I did sign my post with my name, by the way,… Paul L Brady



Now I am going to pick on Mr Crusader for a second…

Cliché \kli-"sha\ n [F] : a trite phrase or expression — clichéd \-"shad\ adj

I think he meant to use the following word…

Clique "klek, "klik\ n [F] : a small exclusive group of people :coterie — cliqu•ey "kle-ke, "kli-\ adj — cliqu•ish \-kish\ adj

Are we a “Clique” here on the forums? Darn right we are a “Clique”! We only accept all people who either love lighthouses and/or love collecting Harbour Lights lighthouses.

All comers are welcome to our “Clique”… come one, come all!!!!

Paul L Brady

Sounds like situation ethics to me! I certainly understand what it means to 'change your mind' but don't try to invoke upon me personal convictions by making statements that contradict themselves.



I disagree with your statement above, but then, that's what makes America a great place to live, eh?! Besides, I must have missed class the day they changed the meaning of hypocracy. Just what is your definition of hypocracy anyway? No philosophical analysis, just plain black and white.

While I'm on my soap box, and since Mr. Crusader is so concerned about slavery and the murder of infant girls in China, I'm only assuming he will stop buying American because this country has sucked millions of unborn babies into sinks. Gee, I guess I opened another can of worms. Reluctant to label him a hypocrite? Give me a break!

Tim - Keeping the flame lit...

Oh dear... I didn't think things would get quite this messy.

>>Just what is your definition of hypocracy anyway? No philosophical analysis, just plain black and white. <<

A hypocrite is a someone who professes beliefs he does not hold. Evidenced by someone saying one thing but acting in a way that belies his stated views.

Since I don't have any special insight into what Crusader's views were at the time he made his purchases *I* am not positioned to cast judgement on him. You are, as you note, free to label the fellow any way you wish.

Of course all this misses my original point, namely, whether a person who raises a question is a hypocrite or not has nothing to do with the legitmacy of the question itself and perhaps we should focus on the issue rather than on the person. But obviously *that* point is one the group doesn't care to take up, so I'll drop it - in this thread.

Now that the black and white part is over, indulge me the philosophical analysis. :-)

What is troubling here is your implied notion that a person cannot come to see the error of their view and take a different stance without being labeled a hypocrite.

I'll continue with the same example I gave. Suppose at one time in your life you were prone to lying. Over time you come to realize that lying is wrong and you stop telling lies. By your notion you are a hypocrite and indulging in situational ethics. Along the same lines, the person who is 'born again' would be labeled a hypocrite because their actions at one time are contrary to their views of today.

(If we carry this to the extreme there's no point in discussing our views for if I were to convince you or you were to convince me then, by your definition, one or the other of us would be guilty of hypocrisy.)

Fwiw, situational ethics is a slightly different matter. Someone who espouses this view believes the ethical resolution of any situation is subject to its particular context and there are no guiding principles which apply across all situations. Suppose 10 years ago a person believed that lying was warranted in certain circumstances, and today they believe there are no circumstances under which lying is justified. We would say that 10 years ago the person believed in situational ethics. But the fact that they changed their view is *not* an example of situational ethics. Perhaps this point is too subtle.

>>For example, even if I've told a fib in my lifetime, it doesn't preclude me from teaching my children not to lie, nor entirely mitigate the credibility of my intent in doing so.<<

I must confess to being flabergasted that you would disagree with this. I believe its possible for us to learn from our mistakes without being hypocritical.

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you're saying Tim, this medium is not conducive to a discussion of this nature - on the other hand if not, then perhaps we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.
__
/im

Sidebar: the classic ethics exam question I used to place before my Intro students was what I called the 'Anne Frank problem'. Anyone care to take a shot? Be sure to put your name on your blue books.

You have hidden Anne Frank in your attic. The Nazi police come to your door rounding up Jews. The policeman asks you "are you hiding any Jews in your attic?" As a respected burgher they will take you at your word. The questions is this: is it morally wrong to lie to the Nazi police? Why or why not?



[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 05-13-2001).]

Do you think that crusader has taken a second thought to our opinions? Do you think he has logged back in to read? Does he really care or has he just dropped a termite and ran? Is he off crusading to infest another environment? Some people love to stir it up and then some really feel sincerely about their crusade and I don't know him but I know myself I have had very mixed feelings about these posts and at times have felt I was being attacked personally because I love HL's. Not that that was what he meant but the manner of the post put alot of us on the defensive. I have not been here in a couple of days and I can't beleive this post is still active.

Just remember all, that we all have a common love and bound, and that has made us all friends. So choose your words wisely and agree to disagree!

I have to say the post crusader posted could have been a little more polite maybe is the term?

Maybe he should give us a chance to get to know him so we can decide for ourselves his intentions? So far I haven't seen anything good come from that post.

Wont somebody please quote me or answer my questions? What a cliche you bunch of hypocrates seem to be. I promise not to hit the delete key.

{severly tic}

Just like I used to tell my departed boss,(A bit of an opinionated fellow, completely unlike me) as we were discussing this topic or that.

"Just because that's the way you see it, doesn't make it right. It's just the way you see it."

A confusing way of saying we are all entitled to our opinions, even if they are wrong. (At least to a person that doesn't agree with you.)

That's what makes America great.

Ah,well,ah If HL's were made in sweat shops would they cost less?

Sorry just kidding. Couldn't resist.

George

My fellow Americans:

Just when I thought the Forum was going through the doldrums....
I love this stuff!
Agree or Disagree, I have really enjoyed the intellectual banter. This is fine reading! Boycott? It all boils down to - How much do you want to suffer in order to persuade another to cease their behavior? We have to be put into this sticky situation first and apparently most members do not side with Crusader at this time(no sticky situation.) Now, what happens if the situation in China gets worse (Heaven forbid)? We would draw the boycott line somewhere. For all of us, it would be in a different place than others. We all have our values and most of us place family, God and Country on the top of our list.
Something for us to think about.
Thanks for making me think a little today.
Joe

Wow - I just noticed that the Society Member's button for 2001-2002 was made in...Taiwan! Equal Opportunity! Is this a great country, or what?