cf-banner.jpg
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
"1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79453 02/06/99 01:40 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 13,047
Webmaster Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 13,047
That's what Kim Andrews is calling 1999 - "The Year of the Unexpected"

Of course, these 'unexpecteds' are planned by Harbour Lights, but should be seen as 'unexpected' by we collectors.

The first 'unexpected event' was the introduction of Hillsboro Inlet FL with an edition size of only 6,500.

The second 'unexpected event' is the just-announced early retirement of Wind Point WI and Round Island MI, both short of the original planned edition of 9,500 pieces.


There also seems to be a phasing out of the 'last call' to reps and dealers when the stock on a particular lighthouse gets down to 1,000-1,500.

The 'endangered list' used to include items for which only 200-300 left to be ordered. Then dealers and reps wanted more notice so the list included 1,000-1,500. The result? More dealers ordered large quantities. Which resulted in newly 'retired' items being found on dealers' displays for quite a while after 'sell-out'. In effect, the inventory moved from HL's warehouse to dealers' store rooms, but the movement to collectors' hands probably wasn't accellerated by the 'last call'.

What do you think about 'The Year of the Unexpected'? What other 'unexpected' things could you imagine?

Are these 'Unexpected' events/situations good for the line? Good for collectors? What's your opinion?

Carnac

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79454 02/06/99 02:53 PM
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 36
L
LuvLights2 Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
L
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 36
Hillsboro: a beautiful piece, I applaude any time the edition size decreases.
Last Call: this will be a good thing for collectors, when its gone its gone. I believe this will slow down the retailers stocking up the store rooms in preparation of the secondary market.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79455 02/06/99 03:21 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
B
BuyGlass Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
B
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
John, Did Kim happen to say what the Retirement of Windpoint and Round Island was for. Was it just to create some more retirements, were there problems? Is Harbour Lights beginning to consider leaving the edition sizes off the flags? When I get old and gray I am not sure I am going to remember the edition sizes from these early retirements. The Collectors Guide and Green Book will get a boost in sales just so we can keep this stuff straight. Are they going to continue to release editions of 10,000 and retire them off when they aren't selling well after a couple years? I would rather see them commit to just lowering the edition sizes back to 9,500 or even to 9,000 and just take our chances with pieces like Coquille and Chatham.

imho
SeAnDiEgO

[This message has been edited by BuyGlass (edited 02-06-99).]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79456 02/06/99 03:31 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Bill Harnsberger Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Thank GOD those two pieces retired. It was painful watching them languish (a la North Head and Cape Blanco) on the shelves. Can we expect a forced retirement on Brant Point and Selkirk in the near-future?? I hope so.

IMHO, I think Harbour Lights should impose a mandatory retirement after, say, 3 years, regardless of the number sold. The edition limit of 10,000 (or whatever) would simply be a MAXIMUM that the company is allowed to produce.

The result? Greater demand as the 3-year limit approaches, and faster turnover of pieces on the shelves (not to mention a little less dust on the display pieces). Best of all, the "ugly ducklings" (i.e. Wind Point) would enjoy at least a little clout as a collectible.

With the proliferation of GLOWS and lack of 'natural' retirements, I think this is the kind of 'shot in the arm' the company needs at the moment. They've made a wise decision with Round Island and Wind Point. IMHO they need to take it a step further and "close out" the other '95s.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79457 02/06/99 05:18 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 72
K
Kevin Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 72
Wind Point an ugly duckling? Not! It was the second piece in my collection. Although Wind Point is unspectacular, my intrest in the piece shows the power of a memorable personal visit in determining my purchase pattern.

I'm happy Round Island and Wind Point retired. It seems like there have been too many new introductions, and this is compounded when older pieces just rot on the dealer shelves. The welcome improvements in the Harbour Lights line mean that the older pieces often just don't stack up -- just compare Cape Henry to Wind Point, for example.

I like the "unexpected events." More early retirements would be fine with me, and that's not because I have all the pieces that would be retiring. If I haven't pulled the trigger by now on Round Island, I'm not going to just because it's retiring. Bill's idea (above) about a three-year term limit on new issues is good, but then the flags would rarely be accurate on edition size. I'd rather see smaller edition sizes, even if that meant someday resculpting and reissuing popular pieces.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79458 02/06/99 05:58 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 13,047
Webmaster Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 13,047
Hey, I don't think of either as 'ugly ducklings' in fact they were part of that breakthrough year of 1995 when new detail was the hallmark (NOT Hallmark). Round Island was in the first batch I bought because from the end of the street where the store was, I could see it out there in the Straits of Mackinac.

Sean, no reason was given as to why -- other than to continue the 'Year of the Unexpected'. Kim did say that 'limited editions' can be limited by more than just a number. In fact, Society Exclusives are limited by orders received within a given membership year and the Rose Island Society piece had a 30 day order window.

I used Tim's calculators (you'll have to update your own until Tim sends a revised one) to learn that these two pieces were tied at 15 for being on the market longest. (I think all the others longer were from 1991 and 1992 - Cape Blanco holds the record.)

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79459 02/06/99 06:15 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 44
R
Rich Boyes Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 44
I like the idea of early retirements of pieces with marginal popularity. I'm not sure, however, whether I like an uncertain time period of availability with "unexpected announcements" or a fixed production & sales period. Either approach could assure that pieces wouldn't languish on dealer shelves and compete for shelf space with new LEs and GLOWs. I'm not sure either approach would enhance the desirability of such pieces, but you never know. In any event, these ideas provide interesting discussion topics here in the FSB.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79460 02/06/99 09:09 PM
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 1,591
Art Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 1,591
I never thought of Wind Point as an ugly duckling, either. In fact, I can't figure out why this piece doesn't move faster on it's own merit (seems this was a chatroom topic last week or so).

I like the idea of the time-limited retirement also. The 10,000 edition size combined with time-limited retirement gives Y&A some flexibility to let the winners run while cutting losses. Seems a good combination, imho.

Regarding "last call," I'm not so sure I like that. I think it will increase the lag time between retirement and appreciation, for those concerned with such things. I could be completely wrong; such a "last call" might put a piece on a collector's radar screen that wouldn't be there otherwise, and thereby accelerate dissemination into the hands of collectors. In any case, "last call" gives HL some additional press release material. More frequent press releases are a good thing. There's no such thing as bad publicity, is there?

Sitting comfortably on the fence,

-Art


-Art
Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79461 02/06/99 11:42 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
B
BuyGlass Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
B
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
"Kim did say that 'limited editions' can be limited by more than just a number. In fact Society Exclusives are limited by orders received within a given membership year and the Rose Island Society piece had a 30 day order window"

I realize this. The difference is that none of the pieces that Kim mentions has 9,500 or 10,000 edition numbers on the Flag.

SeAnDiEgO

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79462 02/07/99 01:04 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,194
Todd Shorkey Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,194
"The Year of the Unexpected"

I wouldn't expect anything less from Harbour Lights. It always seems like word leaks out on a few new releases, then BANG, three others are introduced that no one was expecting. Not a bad thing IMHO.

In regards to the early retirements, as popular as they may be with collectors, they are wrong. Unless there is a problem with an inaccuracy(ala Chatham, Coquille), mold breakage, other problem, ect.., the run should be carried out through completion. Even if it takes seven years! I feel if Harbour Lights committed to an edition size of 9,500 and has it stamped on the flag, then they should live up to their word and make 9,500. (unless there is an above mentioned problem. Slow sales IMHO is not a problem to cause early retirement.)

I think Harbour Lights jumped the gun on increasing edition sizes as high as they did, as quick as they did, and are now trying to compensate for that with the early retirements. They are on the right track with Hillsboro. Edition sizes should be lowered. Maybe not to 6,500 on all new releases (7,500 sticks in my mind) but definitely smaller than 10,000.

As John states, "no reason was given as to why" Round Island and Wind Point were retired. Whatever the reasoning and appealing as the retirements are, I hope Harbour Lights sticks with what they say. If they say 10,000 edition size, then it should be a 10,000 edition size. After all, Coquille GLOW was tabled due to something that may or may not have been said. Here we know for sure what was expected with the edition sizes of these to pieces, it is stamped on their flags.

-Todd (Hey, are Wind Point and Round Island worth even more now that they have flag errors?)

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79463 02/07/99 02:53 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
B
BuyGlass Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
B
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
Well said Todd, I hadn't even looked at it from that angle. Why all of these decisions this year?? My gosh, its only been 12 months since the 10,000 decision. Tim, where are you at Buddy?? This isn't as simple as it seems? Todd has hit the nail on the Head. Harbour Lights should stand by there word in either direction. Retirement doesnt move them off the shelves but it sure reduces the numbers in line to collect the dust behind them. We were joking about CSC waffling around on numbers produced. I think Harbour Lights has opened Pandora's Box. Now that future buyer of Round Island and Windpoint will have to look elsewhere to get it. They are LEs, cant be produced again, and apparently poor sellers, won't make it to GLOW status. This is an example of how every lighthouse is not a Hatteras, Portland Head etc.... There is a finite number of US Lighthouses that will be causing every collector to purchase it. I think its safe to say that now the door is opened all lighthouses are subject to early retirement. Now don't think I am 100% negative to this idea. It could be a good thing. If Harbour Lights continues to make a profit and is able to churn out more lighthouses this way good for us. This is new ground. We wont know until its tried.

SeAnDiEgO

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79464 02/07/99 07:01 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
>>I think Harbour Lights jumped the gun on increasing edition sizes as high as they did, as quick as they did ...<<

Righto - Todd. Citing from a crazed numerologist :

Quote:
I think we've only recently (and finally) moved into the Post Thomas Point Affair era where rapid retirements (and thus skewed value factors) are no longer happening as they did when a wild speculative binge gripped the market. Fwiw, I think HL themselves fell victim to those heady days. 10k edition sizes and full dealer store rooms are the after shocks we're living with today as they failed to sufficiently innoculate themselves against Faux Retirement Fever.


Sean - of course you're right - this is not as simple as it seems. The early forced retirement of Burrows Island set a precedent, but it had not become a practice. Until now?? I need to reflect on this issue some more, but my initial reaction is yes - HL should stick to the edition size they engrave on the flag. Discontinuing an edition early is the flip side of increasing the edition beyond its original size. ("Although we promised not to produce over 10,000 as a limited edition, we always reserve the right to retire a limited edition early." - Kim Andrews)

I can accept Kim's claim - however the question one needs to ask of any early retirment is 'why?'. I can accept discontinuance in the case of error (Coffin, Chatham) or production problems (Pt. Arena - though they coulda remolded) - but is lack of sales a good enough reason? Sure business is business, but collectibles aren't Japanese sports cars.

HL should just bite the ball vent and admit they made the wrong call with the 10k edition size. I'm more than happy to live with a variable edition size - just announce up front that only N are gonna be made - whether this is 10,000 or 6,500, or 'as many as we can sell in a month' - and then by golly stick to it.

I would be very interested in the factors that led HL to make this decision. (yoo hoo - Kimmer?) Is it simply the lack of sufficient sales after 4 years, or are there larger concerns of which these are but surface symptoms?

Rgds,
__
/im [just collect GLOWS - they never retire early]

[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 02-07-99).]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79465 02/07/99 08:37 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 44
R
Rich Boyes Offline
Member
Offline
Member
R
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 44
After further thought, I guess I like the variable, but predetermined edition size approach or set window ordering period approach vs. the unexpected retirements of pieces that are presented as 9500 or 10,000 edition sizes.

Either of the first two alternatives allows a collector to make an informed purchase decision in a timely manner with reasonable assurance of getting a piece he or she wants. Either approach also reduces the inventory glut and enables HL to get sales revenue sooner. If HL occasionally underestimates demand for a certain piece, then collectors will have a hot piece to pursue and talk about, generating more interest in the HL line. The flag edition size number should be real.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79466 02/07/99 10:19 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 325
TDSimpson Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 325
I also agree with Todd. If it says 10,000 pieces then let it be 10,000 pieces. Not every piece can fly off the shelves. True there are a few so called "dogs" that have been released, but every "dog" needs a home.

If certain pieces are going to be retired early for whatever reason, slow sales comes to mind, then just bite the bullet and lower the initial announcement of 10,000 limited edition pieces back to say 7500, 8500 or so.

Another idea, just leave the edition size on the flag blank and include a one-use-only disposable pen in the original box and we can fill in the number later. Oops, probably shouldn't have said that.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79467 02/07/99 11:11 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
My only thought on this matter is that if Harbour Lights can change their minds on a LE by retiring the piece early because it is not selling well thus not producing the full run of 9500 or 10000, will they also also change their minds and produce more than the 9500 or 10000 or whatever the edition size is because the piece is selling well ???? Will #2476/10000 be #2476/10000+ however many more they may produce.Will they produce the full run with numbers and then produce others without numbers so long as the piece is popular ???? I believe that if you are going to market a piece at 9500 or 10000, then produce that many.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79468 02/07/99 11:43 AM
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 36
L
LuvLights2 Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
L
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 36
Honor is an endangered species. And it is what has built my business. I used to be able to do things on someone's word now it requires a 10 page contract, signed and witnessed.
But that's a different issue. I think that the edition should be completed according to the number on the flag, regardless of profit or loss. If profit is the only reason for discontinuing an edition than reduce the edition size so as to guarantee a retirement. IMHO this will benefit everyone involved.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79469 02/07/99 03:34 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
B
BuyGlass Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
B
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
A What if Scenario:

What if Hillsboro Inlet is Produced without an engraved edition number on the flag? What if Florida Dealers are screaming for more editions of Hillsboro after the 6,500 number is sold? Will Harbour Lights then produce up to the 10,000 saying that they promissed to never make a limited edition of more than 10,000?

SeAnDiEgO
Burrows Island was a long time ago and didn't sell over 7,000.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79470 02/07/99 03:46 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Bill Harnsberger Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Good to see some lively debate again after a bit of a lull. . .

I have to clarify my statement about Wind Point and Round Island being "Ugly Ducklings." I did not mean it in a literal sense (I love my Round Island, particularly the two little outbuildings that look like they've seen better days), but rather in the sense of poor sales. With nearly 2,000 pieces still to go after 4 years, they clearly aren't "Wow" pieces among collectors, tourists and the general public. I have no doubt that both would have fallen below Cape Blanco and North Head as the worst-selling pieces of all time---regardless of the detail on them. Personally, I thought $85 for RI and $78 for WP were on the expensive side. To me, Wind Point is maybe a $70 piece (at '95 prices) and Round Island $75. Maybe the price point hurt them...I dunno. But they are ugly ducklings in the figurative, sales-related sense...and God bless 'em both because they're still part of the family.

If mandatory retirement after 3 years (or whatever) isn't popular, then I'd love to see a lower edition size. 5500 is certainly too small. 10000 is certainly too big. So where's the happy medium?

Technically it's at 7,750. If you assume that maybe 3,000 go out the door as soon as a piece is released, that leaves 4,750 left. Toss in another 50 for trade show giveaways and other donations and that makes a nice, clean 8,000.

I think that's a good number. If you use Wind Point and Round Island as examples of 8,000 editions, they'd at least be "endangered" by now.

I suspect that Brant Point and Selkirk are in the same boat...nearly endangered if you use 8,000 as the edition size...along with the lady lights (as we saw when Chatham retired early at less than 8,000), Toledo Harbor, Charlotte Genessee, Cape Meares, Mukilteo, Peggy's Cove, Concord, and Sandy Point Shoal. In other words, they ain't movin' much and they probably never will. Meanwhile new, superior limited editions and GLOWs are showing up all the time, pushing the "ugly ducklings" further and further back on dealer shelves.

At 8,000, I think retirements would be pretty much guaranteed in 3-4 years or less, and that would keep the line moving right along. There would be several pieces that retired faster than that, of course, and that would serve to maintain and even increase the enthusiasm for the line.

But what about pieces that will CLEARLY be hugely popular with collectors...a la Sanibel, Thomas Point, Hillsboro?? Easy. Those become "special releases" with LARGER edition sizes. I think HL is leaving a lot of money on the table by limiting Hillsboro to 6,500. But Lorain, Ohio gets 10,000?? Huh?! No...keep the regular pieces to 8,000...but pull out the stops for the clear winners.

Final thought: As a purely psychologial move---and I guarantee this works---HL should make the edition size 7,999. People's eyes latch on to the first digit, and tend to ignore the rest. To a collector, a "7" looks a lot more appealing than an "8."

So there it is. I believe that's settled the debate, and I can collect my consultant's fee now....or I'd be willing to waive it for a Coquille...whatever.

[This message has been edited by Bill Harnsberger (edited 02-07-99).]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79471 02/07/99 03:48 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 223
Dick Johnson Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 223
I agree that Harbor lights probably made a bad decision in increasing the edition size to 10,000 and would like this to be cut back by a few thousand. But I also think that it is a good decision, and their choice, to retire pieces early. I feel that pieces should not only be limited in quantity produces, but I also feel that they should only be available only for a limited period of time. There are plenty of lighthouses to produce that will keep the shelves full, without having a certain group remain around forever.

What happens if a piece sits on a shelf forever. The seller has an inventory they can't move. Their only choices are discounting the item, which many people feel is not a good option, or just let it take up room and cost them storage and display space as well as carrying cost. They obviously won't order more pieces, thus Y&A can't close out the line, and finally the secondary market, which so many people are worried about, can't kick in. So we have an orphan that becomes relegated to the back room, instead of letting the secondary market determine it's fate.

I say let the market determine what is popular and what is not. If a piece sells quickly and includes 10,000 peices it will still be worth more than a piece that only has 7,100 pieces, yet takes 10 years to sell that many. People will buy what they like and want both from retailers and from secondary sources. IMHO HL should have both the right and duty to set the original size of the edition, and the length the item should remain on the primary market. I say go for the plan of setting a certain number of years for a item to remain available and see what buyers will do. I think that not much will change as far as sales and value.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79472 02/07/99 06:55 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,194
Todd Shorkey Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,194
In his post, Rich Boyes mentions the collector being able to make an "informed purchase decision". I agree that this is an important aspect of collecting, or for that matter, buying anything. Granted that Y&A has no obligation to be an active part of this process, if Harbour Lights continues down the path of suprise retirements, collectors beware!

If you follow Tim's Factoid #11 - What To Buy spreadsheet, or any other buying strategy/plan, and defer purchase of the older slow movers for pieces on the fast track, these retirements should be kept in mind. A fairly reliable "informed decision" may no longer be possible.

This may not be true for every piece. Round Island & Wind Point won't disappear from dealer shelves overnight, but there aren't many on the shelves in my area. It seems if a piece is a slow seller, chances are a dealer won't order replacements from Harbour Lights once they sell out of their stock of that particular piece, meaning there may not be an excessive number of these pieces on dealer shelves.

Just some points to keep in mind.

-Todd (Limited Edition Post #0162/????)



[This message has been edited by Todd Shorkey (edited 02-07-99).]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79473 02/07/99 08:14 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 39
M
Myron Snyder Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 39
Quote:
"Honor is an endangered species. And it is what has built my business."

IMHO one of the things that has built a loyal HL following and made them the best is the willingness of Y&A to stick by their word and be willing to back off, rethink, and admit a problem when the community of collectors have reminded them of a promise they had made. I have been amazed at their willingness to stand by their word even at times when they didn't remember saying something or with the same meaning as the community of trusted collectors had remembered it. I have admired that kind of honesty and loyalty to their customers.

Going back on their word of edition sizes is not a good thing in my mind and could easily come back to haunt them later. It will be another item of confusion for collectors new and old. It took me a long time to understand the status and the meaning behind those pieces that changed from OE to LE.

I also believe the edition size got too big too fast and needs to be scaled back. But going back on a pre-anounced addition size is not a good way to correct the problem. Being able to come up with new meanings of what an edition size is, will destroy the meaning all together.

Myron

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79474 02/07/99 10:05 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
I also believe that all club members should be offered every new piece before they are offered to the general public.This could be done the same way they offer the annual club piece and the Christmas piece by sending out a reservation form to hand in to a dealer for each new piece that is issued throughout the year.This way no one can say that they didn't have a chance to purchase a particular piece.This would also help Y&A to decide on how many to make of each LE based on the initial response from club members and would also increase club membership.If this route were to be followed I believe everyone would come out ahead. Any feedback on this ??

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79475 02/08/99 01:29 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 240
P
Polly Offline
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 240
I agree that pieces that may be subject to new/unexpected size limitations should first be offered to society members. It has been stated that Hillsboro Inlet FL will be available in a quantity to meet the needs of core collectors. The only way to guarantee this, is to offer the piece first to society members.

Pieces with a specified edition number should not be prematurely retired simply because they have not sold over a set period of time. When an edition size is listed, the full edition should be issued. The exception to issuing the full edition number would be in the event of design flaws.

Harbour Light needs to determine what to base retirement on:

Edition Number Method - Limited Edition size only.
Year Method - Limited Years availability only.
Warranty Method - A Maximum Edition size available up to, a Maximum of years offered (whichever comes first).

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79476 02/08/99 02:22 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
>>I also believe that all club members should be offered every new piece before they are offered to the general public.<<

Is this really necessary? If one is truly a 'hobbyist' - particularly if you're active in these forums, you're aware of new models often before dealers are. Any piece you really want you can find a dealer who will reserve it for you long before it hits the shelves. Just be sure to buy it when it arrives.

It'll also just drive the price up with the cost of informing all Society members well ahead of time, then providing a means for taking orders. How many out of 4-6 new releases will each person commit to buy during the limited window of opportunity? Even those little Society Piece forms costs money.

I've never liked the notion that HL should somehow guarantee that anyone will get a particular model. Though my editiorial on the subject has long since landed in the bit bucket, I still maintain it was a bad idea to produce a Society version of Rose Island just to make sure folks who couldn't attend the 2nd Reunion would have a chance at one.

Rgds,
__
/im [No food stamps at the FSB]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79477 02/08/99 03:51 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
B
BuyGlass Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
B
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
I don't care for the idea of Society Members getting Firsts. What are new collectors? Is their money any less valuable than Society Members? IMHO Society Members are simply Collectors that choose to get the Legacy News Letter, Society Piece and Ornament? Do they deserve to receive anything more because of this. Not in my opinion. Society Membership is not a decisive indication of how many Harbour Lights someone may buy a year. Remember there are Dealers that have memberships and there are employees of dealers that have memberships that dont necessarily intend on adding these pieces to their collections. Sure some will, others wont and those lighthouses will be taken out of this fare market we seem to think needs to be created. I like the lighthouse distribution as it is. Be true to your dealer and buy what you reserve. They will look out for you. Lets keep the distribution as it is. KISS, Keep It Simple Sonny.

SeAnDiEgO
The Beaver Keeper

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79478 02/08/99 11:13 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Bill Harnsberger Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Collectors know exactly where and when they can get the latest Harbour Lights pieces. I don't think it's necessary to offer them to Society members first.

Besides, think of the logistical nightmare that would create on Y&A's part. They can do a few society pieces using the forms, but I think if they do ALL the pieces that way, they'd go nuts. And that's OUR job.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79479 02/08/99 12:06 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 8,949
WackoPaul Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 8,949
I can't believe that Sean, Tim and I all agree on something. I totally disagree with offering all pieces first to the society members. The reasons that Tim and Sean stated are all valid. Also the dealers must be considered in this proposal, they need stock on the shelves for people to look at. The first time customer would probably balk at buying into something that they are forced into (society), to guarantee they get one. At the amount of memberships there are now it would be conceivable that a piece could be sold out be before getting to the dealers store and the store then just becomes a shipping clerk. All of the stores I have been to stock other items and even if you don't buy a Harbour Light lighthouse that day, after looking at them, you might buy a card or something else. There are thousands of reasons the dealers wouldn't go for the idea. The stores were a little unhappy, I believe, with the way the Old Field Point was handled last year; it causes some confusion to them.
Keep the Society and the Special Society pieces separate from the regular editions, that's what makes them SPECIAL!!

WackoPaul


Onward to The Land of the Midnight Sun!
Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79480 02/08/99 12:47 PM
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 36
L
LuvLights2 Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
L
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 36
Hey, I am a new collector and it didn't take me a week or so to find this website. Anyone who is serious about collecting is capable of the same.I like the idea of offering the pieces to members first. This would offer the opportunity to get a low edition number and afford information to Harbour Lights as to how popular the piece will be. As for the forms to fill out, I do agree that that would be expensive, but it could all be done on this website or by email. As for any cost increase, pass that on to the membership fees, I would be willing to pay a couple of extra bucks a year to insure my reservation of a desirable piece.I don't think that it would even have to be a commitment to buy, just an answer to whether or not you "would" buy one, as this would solve the debate of early retirements due to lack of interest. I also don't believe that the pieces should be limited to the number of member orders, but use that as a basis for the edition size.

[This message has been edited by LuvLights2 (edited 02-08-99).]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79481 02/08/99 01:20 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 13,047
Webmaster Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 13,047
Society Members Reservations... Not practical. Collectors would have to make a decision on a a 2-D photo 6 months in advance so HL could decide how many to produce. They could be easily sold-out before production and dealers wouldn't have any additional ones to sell or show. And low-numbered pieces are already committed to long-time dealers and from those dealers to specific (WACKO) collectors.

Retirement early, short of full edition run... I kind of like this one every once in a while. I don't think it should be a policy like "4 years and you're out!"

No pre-announcement on retirements... I think this is helpful to the marketplace. When HL tells roughtly 2,000 dealers they have 1,000 left, those last 1,000 probably move out quicker than at any time since introduction. It creates the erroneous feeling that this (retiring) lighthouse is HOT. There are lessons HL learned from Alcatraz, Thomas Point, and Sanibel Island that put this decision into play, IMHO.

Early retirement leaves an erroneous 'edition size number' on the flags... So? Let's try some numbers here and see what they remind you of: 266, 988, 1,138, 2,563, 5,428, 7,450. Yes, these were all pieces that were retired early (or resculpted) for other reasons than committing the sin of being on the market too long (well 2,563 was the exception). But so what? Current collectors will have no trouble finding Round Island and Wind Point for 12-18 months or longer. Collectors who start in 2001 may have a harder time. Consider yourself lucky -- just like you think of collectors who started in 1993 or 1994 and bought their Southern Belles for retail.

No one has suggested what else Habour Lights could do that would be 'unexpected'. Any ideas?

Perhaps we should count the "Registration Contest" in with this group.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79482 02/08/99 02:21 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,801
rscroope Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,801
How about?
Spyglass Series
1. North Carolina Lights
Currituck,Bodie,Cape Lookout,Bald Head
2. Long Island Lights
Jeffrey Hook, Statue of Liberty, Execution Rock, Old Field, Horton's Point, Montauk, Fire Island

Cape Hatteras Commemorative Move HL LE
Old site/ new site with road and appropriate stage of reconstruction and movement

Harbour Lights Honors Collectors and Artists for their various Contributions to their Company's Success
Kind of a Hall of Fame.


LONG ISLAND BOB
Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79483 02/08/99 02:57 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Bill Harnsberger Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
I would suggest that "unexpected" thoughts and ideas go into the Rumor Mill area, since that's all it is at the moment---rumor. I'll start it off. See you there.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79484 02/08/99 08:13 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 318
jakescol Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 318
Honor? How about CONSISTANT, CREDIBLE, DEPENDABLE, TRUSTWORTHY.
Shouldn't it be what all business strive to attain. If these things are not followed to a "T" then the you become UN-CONSISTANT, UN-CREDIBLE, UN-DEPENDABLE, UN-TRUSTWORTHY, AND ALL FUTURE ACTIONS WILL BE--EXACTLY--UN-EXPECTED.
This will soon lead to COLLECTORS who are UN-FAITHFUL, and UN-INTERESTED, in what you produce or promise. It is not to late, you produce a beautiful product. You are developing a great following of loyal collectors. You have two great things going for you now live up to your creed.
If you need to lower the LE amount than do so. But it is your obligation to live up to what you have promised.
Early in the collection a couple of early retirements didn't seem to be a real problem but now if it don't sell, IT GETS DUMPED. If it sells out, you make a GLOW. All the GLOWS are not GREAT LIGHT HOUSES OF THE WORLD!

I.M.H.O.
Bring each L.E. up to the number that is on its flag! That's TRUSTWORTHY!
Dump the open editions, GLOWS or SIGNATURES. Thats HONORABLE.
Keep the collection to LIMITED EDITIONS just like your early brouchers advertise, thats DEPENDABLE.
Put it all together, and you become CREDIBLE.
Then we will all continue to be FATIHFUL AND INTERESTED, in your beautiful lighthouses.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79485 02/08/99 08:54 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Bill Harnsberger Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Wow...strong words. But I respect what you're saying.

I'm personally willing to give Harbour Lights the benefit of the doubt in terms of being a relatively new company that's still learning as it goes. However, I do see some signs of greed as well, and that doesn't give me the warm fuzzies that I should have about them. Not only has their rapid expansion caused shelves to become too full, it's also caused a drop in the most important thing of all: Demand for their pieces. I mean, isn't it astonishing that Grand Haven and Sturgeon Bay haven't retired by now??

As I said in an earlier post, I think Harbour Lights needs to back off the 10,000 edition size and drop down to 8,000. In retrospect, we're seeing that even 9,500 was too high for many pieces. If I owned the company (Yeah...in my dreams), I'd be very concerned about keeping supply just a bit on the tight side. My goal would be to have every piece retire in roughly 3 years. Some might take a little longer, some would retire immediately. It would balance out. As it is now...supply is outstripping demand and it's just not quite as much fun collecting Harbour Lights as it used to be. IMHO.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79486 02/08/99 09:13 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 552
Kaiz Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 552
Boy it is sure nice to get the ol' juices flowing again on this little issue.

Just a thought, but suppose Harbour Lights has been listening to their masses shouting that perhaps the edition sizes have become too large. Now they announce that all new editions will be at 7500-8000 or whatever. With the constantly improving quality and now with the smaller editions, don't you think it will deal the final death blow to some of those already dusty four year old pieces.

Sure some people will complain, as they did when we saw 9500 then 10000 but I feel it is worth at least a try, on HL's part to reduce some of the already slow inventory. We all like to complain about something anyway.

Also, lets leave the Society just the way it is, a club and not some divine right of passing into the exclusive inner domain of lighthouse purchasing.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79487 02/08/99 09:30 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 340
F
FredKuhl Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
F
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 340
Let's look at a couple of scenerios.

1. A collector walks into a shop and finds a rare retired HL lighthouse at retail. He/she buys it and walks out. Gets out of sight and pumps his fist into the air. Too bad, if he would have looked back he would have seen the dealer pumping his fist also. He finally got rid of that dog (to him) that was taking up space and getting reported to the IRS on his yearly inventory. There is no way he is going to run into the office to call his HL rep. and get a replacement. Result, two happy people.

2. Bill Younger and Associates puts into production a Harbour Lights lighthouse that is limited to 10,000 pieces. Do they have the factory produce 10k pieces. I doubt it. Otherwise we wouldn't have the same piece produced in the USA/Canada, Canada/Malaysia, or Malaysia/China. If I were in business, I would produce enough pieces to fulfill my first orders (autoship and pre-ordered) with enough spares to give me a sufficient time span to order another production run in time to fulfill new orders. Maybe, one or two thousand at a shot. Meanwhile, they sit in my warehouse, taking up space and getting reported on my annual inventory. After soooooo looooooong when their number finally diminishes, I would be very hesitant to have the factory gear up for another production run. What is normal, 1k, 2k?

Reading the fine print (so fine I couldn't find it), I see a limited edition lighthouse of 10k pieces. I don't see a guaranteed production of 10k pieces. What if, in my final order, 13 (Tim you pick a number) were rejected/damaged - poor quality or whatever. I'm not going to order a new production run of 13 pieces. And, after I have sat on them (Bob, Martha Stewart didn't say they had to be empty boxes) I certainly wouldn't want to order another one or two thousand.

Do you collectors of Disney, Dept 56, Swarovski, plates, Beanie Babies (for you, John), cottages, beavers (in any medium) etc. etc. etc. have a serial number on the peice and a guarantee of the total number of pieces, When a bow-wow (I happen to be a dog lover) or a meow (hi, Kat) hits the market it gets an early retirement. Bow-wow or meow defined as poor seller not a poorly designed piece.

I agree that HL jumped to 9,500 (but isn't 10,000 a nice round number) too soon. 7,500 might have been a much more sensible step - but what the heck, reach for the stars. As much as us wackos pontificate on what HL should do, they are guided by the same laws of ecomonics as any other business (and it is a business). Maybe if they don't have to go out and rent more warehouse space, the price will remain reasonable. Let's just be thankful that they have consistantly improved quality and enjoy our treasures.

WINNERS/LOSERS

Winners
1. the collector. He got what he wanted (if he wanted it).
2. the speculator. The piece will disappear form the shelves that much sooner.
3. the dealer. More display space for hopefully new releases (where are they?).
4. BYA. Solves a logistics and economics problem.

Losers
1. the new collector. But isn't that true for all of the retired pieces?
2. the purist. The numbers don't match (big deal).

Written yesterday before several of these posts. Not from the fog signal building but from my foggy mind.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79488 02/08/99 09:41 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 552
Kaiz Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 552
Hey Bill,
I like your last post, you must have been typing the same time I was and I just wanted to let you know I agree with you.

Also, just a question! What will HL do with all the pieces they decide not to ship.

- LET IT BE KNOWN- I volunteer to purchase all those poor orphaned #9500/9500 pieces nobody wants (it's worth a try anyways)

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79489 02/08/99 10:59 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
>> As for any cost increase, pass that on to the membership fees, I would be willing to pay a couple of extra bucks a year to insure my reservation of a desirable piece.I don't
think that it would even have to be a commitment to buy, just an answer to whether or not you "would" buy one, as this would
solve the debate of early retirements due to lack of interest.<<

Whoa - don't increase my membership fees just to subsidize your option to purchase new models. Give an annual retainer to your favorite dealer for the guaranteed right to buy or pass on new models - I'm sure he'll be happy to take your money. But don't pass this cost on to other collectors.

And if there's no committment to purchase, what's the point? It'll just skew the numbers about interest - after all if one didn't have to commit to purchse, who would say 'no'?

There are other avenues to assure yourself a piece. I've been collecting for several years now and there's been no piece released since I started I did not purchase easily (at retail or less).

Rgds,
__
/im [ we gotta number of midly complex issues going here ]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79490 02/08/99 11:15 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
B
BuyGlass Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
B
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
What you say is all true Fred, but it would have been easier to have not jumped to 10,000 and had this perception that every new release is a potential Sanibel or Thomas Point. Lets move the edition size down from 10,000. You may not care about that Flag number, but I do, and its probably split down the middle. It may be a fairy tale dream but I would like to know that there is a 5,500, 9,000, 9,500 and 10,000 edition number setting in a cabinet somewhere. If what has happened is going to be the sign of the future there will probably be some 10,000 edition size lighthouses that will get the axe. What really happened with Harbour Lights growth? Was there really that many new collectors demanding more dealers or was it more dealers demanding lighthouses that created the current market? Hope this makes sense. With more dealers retirements were sure to speed up especially with the 5,500s. There are 5,500s out there that without the growth I think probably wouldnt have retired either. Some real bow wows. Woof, Woof, Sorry Harbour Light Buddies.

SeAnDiEgo
The Beaver is frowning at me, didnt care for the woof, woof.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79491 02/09/99 01:07 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
This isn't the numerography forum, but it's relevant to our discussion here. Only 3 out of 45 pieces remain on the market after 3 years. (not counting '99 releases)

157 Selkirk
162 Brant Point
160 Cape Meares

And those still out there after 2½ years:

178 Mukilteo
165 Charlotte-Genesee
171 Saugerties
173 Matinicus
170 Point Pinos
174 Ida Lewis Rock
167 Sandy Point Shoals
169 Peggy's Cove
179 Toledo Harbor
186 Concord

Several suggestions for a 'correct' edition size have already been made. For the round number fans, I kinda like 7,200 myself. Over three years thats 2400 per year, 200 per month.

Harnesberger knows the score - he's absolutely right in saying "I'd be very concerned about keeping supply just a bit on the tight side." If you want to keep demand and value up, keep suppy tight. Believe me, this practice works *very* well for German car manufacturers.

When a new model is released, send dealers their autoships to get 'em out on the street. Then dribble out the rest over time. If autoships eat up 3000 over the first 6 months, take the next 2½ years to release the remaining 4200. Thats 140 shipped per month for the entire country/world. - if I did the math right :-) If models start backing up in the pipeline for lack of sales, dial back the quantity released. Dealers can order pieces but they won't get 'em any faster. Not a problem if the person for whom they're ordering pays in advance. This will lead to a better customer-dealer relationship, and perhaps reduce the number of dealers who are inventory heavy.

Boilers on-line at the FSB,
__
/im

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79492 02/09/99 01:12 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Are you guys collectors of collectibles? If you are, Harbour lights produces one of the finest collectibles on the market. I can't believe some of your posts. We have been collecting Harbour Lights since they first introduced the line. Several things that that have done, we wish they would have done differently. But, it is their business and they should be allowed to run it as they see fit. If you don't like it, collect Beanie Babies or something else. If you still like lighthouses and the Harbour Lights line, let them do what they feel needs to be done.

IMHO. They are doing what needs to be done to eliminate an expensive stocking of an unpopular sculpture. And, incidently, who will ultimately pay that expense. YOU, the collector. Either that or we quit collecting because the price skyrockets and, then, the company goes out of business. They have done great so far - I still don't like the idea of GLOWs, but we buy them.

It is their company - money - and reputation. Remember it is limited to no more than 10,000. It can be SUSPENDED at any time.

PS. Heard there is a new line of chain-saw sculpted beavers being produced. We have our order in.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79493 02/09/99 01:43 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 88
T
tnkeeper Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 88
Limited Edition in the collectibles world means
-a predetermined edition size announced before production.
If HL decides not to carry out the full edition size, for whatever reason,
I, as a collector, don't have a problem with that.The "unexpected" factor
in cutting the edition short, imo, can only in the long run, be benficial to
to us , the collector. It also keeps things exciting for the collector. I think
this was what John was conveying when he said he "kinda liked this one
every once in awhile."
If, however, they increased that number after an announced LE number, then I would have to question their integrity. I don't see HL ever doing this.
I also disagree with the idea of society members being offered every new piece
before they are offered to the general public. I agree with Sean, Tim & Paul
on this one. New collectors aren't going to appreciate getting the "pick of the crop" only if they "join-the-club." This seems a strong arm tactic to me,
hince, bad business.
Other unexpected things? Announcement of 2 Reunion sights...One East Coast..One West Coast? Rumor? No...just a wish.

Regds,
Debbie


[This message has been edited by tnkeeper (edited 02-08-99).]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79494 02/09/99 01:53 AM
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 39
P
pepper17 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 39
Saw those beavers in Freeport,Me. We really did last Sunday.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79495 02/09/99 02:48 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
>>But, it is their business and they should be allowed to run it as they see fit. If you don't like it, collect Beanie Babies or something else.<<

Take it or leave it, eh? As the sine qua non of the HL bidness - aka The Customer - remember us? - we're always right! :-).

Like fans at a ballpark my $70 entry ticket gives me the right to cheer or boo or otherwise give free advice whenever I/we darn well feel like it. Sure its their business, and sure they can run it however they choose and we can elect to purchase what they offer or not. But there's no reason to discourage healthy debate.

If you can't listen to your customer, who can you listen to?

Full steam ahead,
__
/im ( don't forget to breath )

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79496 02/09/99 06:31 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
B
BuyGlass Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
B
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
"Like fans at a ballpark my $70 entry ticket gives me the right to cheer or boo or otherwise give free advice whenever I/we darn well feel like it. Sure its their business, and sure they can run it however they choose and we can elect to purchase what they offer or not. But there's no reason to discourage healthy debate."

Aren't we in the low rent district here? I thought the Fog Signal building was designed for debate. I didnt start collecting Harbour Lights yesterday either. I kind of look at this forum as being free marketing research for Harbour Lights. They can look at these delicate issues silently and see how the collectors respond. As Tim says weve purchased our tickets to have an opinion.

My debate is not centered on early retirement and whether or not Harbor Lights can do it. Its been done! Old News! My debate is on Edition Size. I don't think you'll find much debate over who's company it is, and what is this let them stuff, do you think we can prevent them? This is just healthy debate. I know what Bill and Kim would tell me if I called. Its done, weve decided, thats it, any questions?

Chainsaw carved Beavers, that ain't nothin, Tim sent me an add for Beaver Hide Sofas. Poor Babies, I need to expend some of this energy on that cause.

SeAnDiEgO

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79497 02/09/99 10:14 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 72
K
Kevin Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 72
The Unexpected (but desired):
1. Harbour Lights announces decision to phase-out GLOWs and instead have re-sculpted limited editions of popular lights. I'd leap at a Tybee or Assateague that looked like the recent GLOWs if they were limited editions, but I resist the GLOW.
2. Limited edition standard runs are reduced to a maximum of 8,000 pieces. Harbour Lights reserves the right to issue special editions at a higher or lower number.
3. The first dual issue of a Harbour Lights matched with an Anchor Bay piece occurs in late-1999 or early-2000. Whitefish Point / Edmund Fitzgerald seems a natural. Both pieces WILL be in a glass case, but not all future Anchor Bay pieces will be in glass cases.
4. A summer 2000 reunion will be announced in Michigan.
AHHH, the joy of sheer speculation in the fog.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79498 02/09/99 10:48 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,801
rscroope Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,801
I thought we looked to HL for consistency not the unexpected?
Isn't that a sign of a good collectible company?
A change in edition size in the middle of a run for no documented good reason, changes the collecting strategy of all of us!
Thank GOD for the steady signal of the Horn from the collectors on this Forum - THE FOG'S GETTING AWFUL THICK


LONG ISLAND BOB
Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79499 02/09/99 10:52 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,194
Todd Shorkey Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,194
"Are you guys collectors of collectables?"

If we weren't, I don't think we would be here debating topics such as this. If I didn't care about this line, I wouldn't spend so many hours in front of my computer each day, trying to learn more.

Tim and Sean are both right on! Debate is healthy, and brings out issues you may not have thought about. We all know HL is a business and as such Y&A can do as they please, but with the money I have invested in this company, you can be sure I will put my two cents worth in.

The past history shows us that Younger & Associates listens to the concerns, comments, and praise of their collectors. I don't see this changing. Feedback is critical for company survival. If you are not giving the consumer what they want, you probably won't be around long. Certainly they will do in the end, what they feel is in their best interests, and push on.

The same can be said of us as collectors- We will do what is in our best interests, and move on. The quality lives on long after the debate is gone.

There's my two cents. Anyone have change for a dime?

-Todd

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79500 02/09/99 03:14 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,155
R
Rod Watson Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
R
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,155
An occasional "special" release piece of a lower edition size (Hillsboro, Old & New Presque Isle Michigan matched set, Whitefish & the Fitz matched set, Y2K piece, etc, etc) is an interesting idea for the line that wouldn't harm anyone and would create a bit of excitement occasionally. The key word is OCCASIONAL.

The single best "positive" decision that could be made right now is to reduce all new releases to the 7500-8500 range. I believe that a majority of the informed collectors would view this as a very smart decision. It is not in any way an admittance of failure or sign of a declining customer base, but a growing pain adjustment from a company who grew too large, too quickly right before the UPS strike. The incredible surge (new releases x edition size) of the post-UPS strike era was way too much for the consumers to absorb, hence the lack of retirements and lingering "bow wows". I don't believe it would be viewed as a "CSC" approach of constant adjustment by most of the collectors.

I do not believe the selective unexplained retirement approach solves much, it's too unorganized and sporatic...stick with stability. Let the remaining dogs linger awhile, but stop any (or most) future ones by cutting back on the new edition sizes. Retiring a few pieces early does not really harm anything, but I would not use the approach as the source for solving any perceived problems.

The idea of an HL Universal Guaranteed Collectors Society Insurance for new releases is not necessary and the wrong approach to the free market system. A dog eat dog approach is as American as apple pie, and is what produces a secondary market and keeps valuable collectibles what they are. Any serious collector wanting a new piece will find one (remember everyone frieking out over scoring a Sanibel and White Shoals before shipment?) Paying an additional $10 to $20 on the secondary market if absolutely necessary is not a big deal.

Even though I'm pro GLOW and purchase most of them, I would not fight a decision to stop the GLOW production in lieu of a new "reunion mini" size open edition line as Tim has proposed before. I think they would fly off the shelves by collectors and tourists alike, and would resolve the complaints of LE size GLOW's and GLOW size LE's of recent years. I think it would be a much better seller than the Signature Series or a continual retirement and re-molding of past GLOW's.

-RodW
[This message has been edited by Rod Watson (edited 02-09-99).]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79501 02/09/99 03:29 PM
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 36
L
LuvLights2 Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
L
Joined: Jan 1999
Posts: 36
Quote:
Whoa - don't increase my membership fees just to subsidize your option to purchase new models. Give an annual retainer to your favorite dealer for the guaranteed right to buy or pass on new models - I'm sure he'll be happy to take your money. But don't pass this cost on to other collectors.

And if there's no committment to purchase, what's the point? It'll just skew the numbers about interest - after all if one didn't have to commit to purchse, who would say 'no'?


I assume that you're saying that you pay too much for the membership now? The idea behind this statement is to help to keep the edition sizes on the flag, edition numbers true, and these beautiful replicas from stagnating on the shelves of dealers. Not for my personal gain. They should be proudly displayed by there owners. Why make 10,000 if the feedback from the Collector's Society Members is that it generally won't sell. At the same time if there are 10,000 collectors that want them then why not make 12,000. Does anyone understand what I'm saying here? As far as "who would say no?" I hope anyone and everyone who seriously enjoys collecting Harbour Lights would falsify information regarding a customer survey. Why that's nothing short of vandalism.
I would like to finish by adding that I'm not degrading Harbour Lights in any way. Some of these comments do seem a little harsh. I have no plans on discontinuing my hobby of collecting Harbour Lights Lighthouses. It will take a lot more than a simple mistake such as over manufacturing of a couple of Lighthouses. In fact I feel somewhat guilty. I don't own either of the lighthouses that started this debate in the first place. YET.


[This message has been edited by LuvLights2 (edited 02-09-99).]

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79502 02/09/99 03:53 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Bill Harnsberger Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,082
Rod, I agree with your post. Knocking down that edition size would be the greatest "unexpected" thing Harbour Lights could do, IMHO. Tightening the supply increases the demand (real or perceived).

Increasing the demand, increases the excitement by dealers and customers.

Increasing the excitement increases the word-of-mouth (I can only imagine the ecstacy store owners feel when they're able to say to a customer: "Better get it now...it'll probably be gone next time you stop in." And, for that matter, the adrenaline rush when the customer feels (s)he's getting something just in time---I know what that's like!).

Increasing word-of-mouth increases sales...and THEN you can start thinking about raising the edition size...little by little.

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79503 02/09/99 08:53 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
B
BuyGlass Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
B
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 241
"(I can only imagine the ecstacy store owners feel when they're able to say to a customer: "Better get it now...it'll probably be gone next time you stop in." And, for that matter, the adrenaline rush when the customer feels (s)he's getting something just in time---I know what that's like!)"

Right on Bill, This is the Heart of Collecting!!!

SeAnDiEgO

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79504 02/09/99 10:56 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 13,047
Webmaster Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 13,047
50 posts in 68 hours, must be a record on it's way to #1 with a bullet.

Lots of good comments. How about you new collectors -- those who started 6 months ago or more recently?

We all like Harbour Lights or we wouldn't be religiously reading these posts. So don't feel like you need to be a WACKO collector to voice your opinions or a question.

John

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79505 02/09/99 11:44 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 33
S
Steve Offline
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 33
Thanks for the invitation, John. I enjoy seeing all you "warhorses" (affectionately intended) debate some of these topics, but I have a couple of ideas.

1. As others have stated, Harbour Lights needs to arrive at a lower standard edition size for normal releases. However, I feel that they should be allowed to produce slightly more for some pieces, depending on demand. I am not in favor though of having 15 Cape Hatteras editions in the HL line.

2. As a new collector, I LOVE to find the 5,500's at retail (I found Split Rock last November). But with the new production techniques, a lot of the 1998 pieces were in the "WOW" category. Gay Head, Tillamook, the TREE on Dunkirk, Old Field Point, Sturgeon and even Cape Florida and Point Judith were nice I thought. AND I know that I forgot some!!!

3. I want HL to continue to make the smaller lighthouses even if they are not grand enough in scale to sell out a larger size. Ocracoke is a charming little light and anyone who has been to the island has a higher opinion for the light than those who haven't. Although, this can probably be argued for most lights.

4. Maybe HL can boost a year's releases by producing a yearly "video calendar" of upcoming and recent releases. This may help market the MANY releases of the higher edition sizes.

5. A quick question, what estimates do you guys (and gals) give for the 1998 releases? Cape Florida (1/98 release?) is the first to retire that wasn't a special piece, correct?

Re: "1999 - the Year of the Unexpected" #79506 02/10/99 02:58 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300


Moderated by  Dave H, JTimothyA 

Forum Statistics
Forums39
Topics16,978
Posts184,640
Members2,579
Most Online10,155
Jan 14th, 2020
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 900 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SafeHarbor, Toots, Bluffhill, phtate, TexLight2022
2579 Registered Users
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.2