Read an enthusiastic Part 2 here:

Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ?

Rick's previous post

The debate continues............


[This message has been edited by SThompson (edited 02-03-2002).]

The one thing I will agree with the LE's should come out before the Glows and if a person does not like the LE its his decision With the new technology some of the glows are better replicas some to me are worsebut that is up to the buyer.It does give the later comer a chance to play catchup.Bill O'Brien

I have another thought on this matter. There are an awful lot of dealers out there. I wonder how many of them have a collection of Harbour Lights at home. I know a couple who do and guess what? They bought theirs at 50% off.

[This message has been edited by TheLightkeeper (edited 02-03-2002).]

More hard questions than answers ...



Would you drive across town to buy at 20% off rather than pay full price from your regular dealer? 6 for the price of 5. Should we teach dealers the lesson that they will sell more if they reduce prices?

It's certainly not surprising that many respondents choose to buy discounted Harbour Lights from a dealer. And presumably this is an endorsement by them of discounting as a acceptable practice. Looks like only a handful of longer time collectors think otherwise.

I wonder how many people are in favor of on-going price reductions? Should dealers generally reduce their price on HL Limited Editions? Is it acceptable for a few major dealers consistently to advertise discounted prices with the net effect of driving other dealers to compete at those prices, or stop carrying the line? Sure, Harbour Lights has a contract with its dealers, but if enough dealers are willing to break the contract, what would/could HL do about it?

Does discounting by some dealers have an adverse impact on dealers who do not discount? Is discounting more likely to keep a dealer in business but drive others to drop the HL line because they've lost business to the discounters?

Are most collectors willing to accept an across the board devaluation of their collections in order to acquire more for themselves? Do most feel 'my buying these two models at close-out prices won't really have an over-all impact on the value of my or anyone else's collection?' If Rick is right about the majority, then perhaps this is so.

What do you think?

Remember - clouds are just high flying fog,
__
/
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 02-03-2002).]

Go Patriots! Oops, wrong topic....

Harbour Lights has reduced the edition sizes of new releases as compared to the total number made over the last few years. It also seems that the pricing on some of these new releases is more reasonable than in the immediate past.

Harbour Lights cares about their collectors and listens faithfully to our whining. When your a faithful HL collector, you actually own a piece of the rock. HL recognizes this fact and does those nice little public relations things that keeps us all smiling. Lets face it, it's good business.

We as collectors are what keeps HL going strong. Bill, Nancy, Kim, and the crew (I wish I could still put Mo in there )would probably like to hug each and every one of us each time we pick up a new release. That's the kind of family business it is.

No matter who sells all or part of their collection, or whoever keeps buying the latest pieces and holds on to the other ones, Harbour Lights is here to stay and will be an important part of our social environment. Their campaign to draw attention to the plight of our nation's lighthouses has been a successful one. God bless them for their efforts.

Keep the wheels turning, ...buy HLs, get involved in lighthousing, and pass this desire on to your family and friends. Nothing but good comes from it.

Go Patriots! Oops off the topic again...

Bob

Perhaps there's another factor or two that need to be considered.

In days gone by, before there was an Internet and a WWW, who would know that a HL dealer in Sheboygan was having a 50% off sale? And would that dealer have regular customers in Idaho? What is the impact of the Internet and the WWW on collectibles? And does it have the effect of seperating the strong dealers from the others? Or is just indiscrimately putting dealers out of business? It's possible that the dealers who are going out of business have not been able to adjust to the new market dynamics. I wonder what happens to their loyal customers?

One other thing that I've given some thought to. There is more than one way to build a collection. One is through a relationship with a dealer who provides all of your pieces to you. In return for your consistent business, you get what? The same edition number for every piece? Or advance notice of HLs news? Maybe your piece just shows up at your door for you. You don't have to worry about getting out to get it. And hopefully your loyalty keeps the dealer in business. But what if it doesn't? What if your dealers inventory problems become so severe that they close their doors? And offer you the last few pieces that you need for 50% off?

Another way to build a collection is to seek out the piece where ever you can find it. I think the new collectors that are critical to the long term health of the collection need to seek out alternate dealer sources in order to find the pieces that their dealer cannot provide. Wasn't that the point of R@R? Helping collectors add to their collection from different dealers? Yes at retail, but I know a bunch changed hands at less than retail, as well as some that went for more. The dealers and the collectors negotiated the price point. Some deals got made, some didn't.

Tim, to answer your question, would I drive across town for 20% off? If I had a regular dealer who had the piece that was 20% off across town and they wouldn't match the price? You betcha, if I wanted the piece bad enough and didn't think that maybe I could get it for 50% off in six months.

Some collectors give more weight to the future value of their collection than others do. That's fine. It's even good and healthy for the overall collecting climate. But, there are two things that you absolutely have to have if there's going to be any future value at all. One is inventory in the market. The other is some one willing to buy what you have. These things aren't doing anyone any good sitting on shelves. The best thing that can happen is for a collector to add it to their collection and by doing that, maintain their interest in getting another, and another, and another.

Well, actually, maybe the best thing for existing collectors would be for the dealer to not try to recover at least their cost by offering a 50% off sale. Certainly for the future value of existing collections, the best thing would be for the dealer to destroy the pieces and let the market know that there are 'X' fewer HLS in circulation. Of course, that doesn't pay the dealers bills. It doesn't give that dealer any revenue that may help them stay in business so they can service their customers for years to come.

This topic has certainly given me a few things to think about as I evaluate my collection and my collecting motives. I hope it has for others too.

Please note, I used Sheboygan and Idaho as illustrative examples, not to cause any stress in someone's life. No offense meant.

Rick

I would like to hear the justification for these dealers breaking their word and their contracts with Harbour Lights by discounting their lighthouses....

And please no more comparing apples and orange crates..

It isn't at all the same thing happening when a dealer discounts and a collector sells a lighthouse at what ever price he wants to sell it at retail or below or above retail.

Is there another factor, which may be self-correcting? Were there too many "marginal" dealers out there, who just picked up the HL line to make a fast buck, and when the line didn't move out fast enough, dumped the line for what it cost them, and moved on to something else. Perhaps, this was helped along by some reps that were pushing Harbour Lights as a "real hot item" (Thomas Point effect) that would retire quickly and be in huge demand. Has anybody lost their "good" dealers, or are the ones closing out at a discount just the places where we go for the good deal? Will this whole problem end when we are left with just the real solid dealers who are in for the long haul?
Jim
Johnson

In reference to "dealer discounting". Most dealers probably offer some kind of discount to their regular customers either directly or indirectly. The shop where I buy most of my collectibles has a program in effect where for every $200 you spend you get a coupon good for $10 off on any purchase. They also periodically send me a coupon good for 10% of any purchase. Now I know that this not directly discounting Harbour Lights but the effect is the same because I use the coupons to purchase Harbour Lights. Other gift shops in our area also have some kind of similar programs to reward regular customers.

So even if dealers do have an agreement with Harbour Lights not to discount, there are ways to get around it.

Face it, the collectible market is a tough market and a lot of shops are going under. They need to give some kind of incentive to keep people coming back in order to stay in business.

The Lightkeeper
Mike

[This message has been edited by TheLightkeeper (edited 02-04-2002).]

Better service is a good way to stay in business...

Giving a little something back to regular customers is better service.

Is the answer that Harbour Lights should only mark up the retail cost 30% and pass the savings directly to the customer? Would some dealers then mark them up an additional 20%. Do some dealers sell retired pieces at high demand prices even though the were on their shelf or in the stock room for years? Do others sell their stock for list price even though retired many years? If I was getting a specific two digit autoship number for 10 years would I buy another at 50% off? If I could get a second HL for 50% off, will I buy it to sell later to help pay for my collection? Is it time to wean out the dealers who cannot sell their supply and reduce the future edition sizes?
There are different sets of rules for each collector, depending on what each collector wants them to be. I have people who I know are selling HLs at high secondary prices, email me for a retail source that I might mention. I also know many many more who will sell you at a reasonable price even though the market is much higher. Some might even give you one for free! Most of us are honest collectors but there are some wolves in sheeps clothing. Not many but but it only takes one.
I'm just being rhetorical here so I'm not looking for Wackos to take sides.

Yes, it is... like information, a smile and great product!

It would be much greater without the GLOWs and I would be smiling. Not just the dealer and Harbour Lights.

OK OK.... Instead of 50% off, I would rather pay full price for an Owls Head, ME replica ! OK, maybe even double. (200%).

Christopher

I'll sell you one for retail plus shipping. One local dealer had a two for one sale.

I spoke with a dealer a while back about his feelings about discounting collectibles. He felt it definitely hurts the collectible business and will eventually destroy the foundation of the collectible itself.

He described it as a malignant growth, a cancer which will eventually put store owners out of business.

Stores must compete for the collectible dollar. The process of selling something for less will reduce inventory but make less profit for the store. If competition gets too great then stores sell for even less making next to nothing for profit. How can you stay in business doing that? The answer? They can't.

Everytime a person buys a collectible at another store because it is discounted, another dealer selling at retail loses a sale. This can only happen for so long before the store will have to drop a line of collectibles because they can't make enough of a profit to warrant carrying that line.

If enough stores stop carrying that line then the manufacturer suffers and may be forced to cease production. Less dealers and the threat of a manufacturer going out of business usually causes a drop in the market value. Value is caused by demand. Scarcity is caused by demand. If the value drops then the whole line may fail. Then many people find themselves with collectibles they bought for a bargain that are worth less than the bargain price.

This is another person's view on discounting collectibles. It does make sense to me. How about you?

Bob

Maybe it's time for Walmart to start carrying Harbour Lights? It will be just one more type of small business wiped out by them and those that don't mind the discounting should get a fare price?

Bob, if Harbour Lights controls the price of what a collectible sells for then how does your retailer suggest competition? Why should I buy a lighthouse from one retailer or the next?

Discounting came from to much product with not enough market. Dealers with to much inventory with not enough buyers. If there was a market for all of it, it wouldn't make it onto the internet, it would be sold off the shelf or even before it made it to the shelf.

imho

I have heard that if a dealer wants out they should let the Rep. of that area know so they can maybe take what stock is left and distribute to other dealers around that may be looking for for certain lights. Also I have heard that Harbour Lights will buy back the leftover stock as long as it is in the original boxes and not been on display. That would stop the 50% discounting by dealers who want to get rid of their leftovers. Just a thought.
Hal

Question by Sean:

"Bob, if Harbour Lights controls the price of what a collectible sells for then how does your retailer suggest competition? Why should I buy a lighthouse from one retailer or the next?"

I would think that HL Dealers would have to do it better than the next dealer in order to maintain a good customer base. Most dealers are located a sufficient distance from another HL dealer. I know you can find two HL dealers in one mall, but that is the exception and not the norm. Malls get a lot of walk-ins who spend their money because they are at the mall. I would like to think most HL dealers are collectible store owners who carry the line because it is a high quality collectible that people will continually return to buy.

Before I switched to my current dealer in Ohio, I was doing business with an area dealer because of the availibility of a fairly low 3-digit number. I paid retail price but was given a special card that awarded me a $25 store gift certificate after I had spent $250 on HLs in that store. I got one punch on the card for each $10 I spent on HLs. It could be considered a 10% discount but in reality it was less. If you spent $79, you only got 7 punches on the card.

I've been to dealers who always reduce the price slightly below retail. Usually the savings amounted to three or four dollars which was just about enough to cover sales tax with enough left over to buy a cup of coffee.

I've been to dealers who, the day after Christmas, offer 50% off many products including HL's. They have had tremendous success moving out post-Christmas inventory in the battle for every last Christmas buck to be spent.

My current dealer sells HLs at retail but offers free shipping on all purchases over $50. Since I don't live in Ohio, I do not have to pay Ohio sales tax. Therefore, I save money and my dealer still sells at retail.

I'm a great believer in dealing with a person who gives you great service, even if it means spending a few more dollars. I still do business with an appliance company that works out of the first floor of their home. My refrigerator died on me one holiday weekend as I was about to go away for a three day boat trip. My appliance guy was at my house within 15 minutes, assessed the problem (not worth repairing), I went immediately to his store, picked out a new refrigerator, he delivered it to my house, removed the old one, plugged in the new one, and even helped me transfer the food. Total time from dead refrigerator to new up and running refrigerator was about two hours.

I still buy oil and have my burner serviced by the same small company I went with when I purchased my home in 1975. Their oil costs me more than the discounters but if I have a problem, they come right down.

I do business with a small insurance company in town and deal with a small bank (two branches) where everybody knows my name. I still go to the same auto repair garage that I worked at in high school.

So to answer your question, Sean, I wouldn't play one dealer against another. I spend my money with those who treat me the best. Service is far more important than saving a dollar or two. After all, ...It's only money!

Bob

The fog is starting to clear and after sifting through all the pea soup this is what I mostly hear:

1- Fewer new releases
2- Lower edition sizes
3- Fewer and more loyal dealers
4- No GLOWS

Sounds good to me and this would be great for the serious collector, but could Harbour Lights survive under these conditions?

The Lightkeeper
Mike

Mike, I agree with your assessment above: BUT, they all point to a drastic loss of profit for Y&A. They cannot reduce their line and stay in business.
We all know that Y&A listens to us. They seem to be trying hard to find that happy middle ground in reference to limited edition sizes. They even tried other products to spur parallel profit without increasing HL edition sizes (AB's for example). We certainly cannot expect the company to suffer just so our dollar investment in HLs increases.
There is no easy answer - especially with the economy - HL's and other collectibles are a luxury, not a necessity and the small gift stores are suffering.
-Joe

Mike has hit it right on the head with his assessment of all the posts. The smaller limited editions is the #1 requirement. #2 would be to get rid of the dealers that junped on the bandwagon when lighthouses were the HOT craze. I would say that if the GLOWS were gotten rid of and the LLOM were to take their place, this would be a big step for the remaining collectible shops because without the GLOWS competing with the LE, HL would not have to decrease the number of LE brought out each year and therefore #4 would be satisfied. GLOWS are the root of this evil and together with overproduction of LE pieces has caused the LE market to suffer. The LLOM could fill the void of GLOWS as a nice momento, gift or even a new line for the novice/part time collector. The LE pieces would fulfill the needs/wants/desires of the true collector and occasional purchase by the 1-2 pieces a year collector.

Down with the GLOWS, up with the LLOM and maintain status quo with smaller editions sizes of the LE. Harbour Lights started with 5500 pieces and only brought out 10-15 pieces a year after the initial 17 and they were making a profit so why can't they do it now and still make a profit. They could continue with an occasional AB and even introduce their new line of historical building. This would also add to their profits and help them keep their LE lighthouses the way it was in the beginning. Additionally, with the GLOWS not being produced, this would automatically bring the values up on the retired lighthouse by placing them again on the desired list for existing and new collectors that want to add these pieces to their collections. They would not have the GLOWS to choose from anymore. Again, my thoughts on this subject.

Rich

Did I hear the class bell ring? ....ding..

I think we got a winner here!

Christopher

Does it all boil down to yhe question are you a light house collector or an investor.Bill O'Brien

Nope, in my opinion it boils down to the collection being worth at least what you buy it for. Why should I buy a Harbour Light for Retail and see another Retailer sell it discounted? Why should I pay secondary for a lighthouse to fill the collection and see Harbour Lights issue a GLOW that causes the market to drop. I want what I paid for, a Limited Edition Collectible, no more, no less.

I'm sorry, I don't agree with these recent 'conclusions'. I don't think those represent the previous posts.

Let me preface this by saying this isn't a personal attack on what anyone has posted here. You have the right to say what you want.

But... Who are we to tell Younger & Associates how to run their business? Who are we to know how GLOW sales contributes to their bottom line?



You have no knowledge that they 'still make a profit' then. In fact with thousands invested in the 3-4 years leading up to 1991, I doubt very much that profits were significant until the mid-90s.

The Youngers have every right to make decisions on what they want to try -- and they have the right to learn from their experiences. They certainly listened to collectors who complained about GLOWs of lighthouses that had not been LEs first.

"Down with GLOWs" "Up With Little Lights". You can carry whatever placards you want, but we don't have a say-so in whether they should drop a successful line of moderately priced open edition sculptures.

Y&A has every right to capitalize on it's successes with lighthouses in whatever manner they want. If, as collectors, we don't like those decisions, we have the option of not buying.


[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 02-08-2002).]

Hmmm, placards? I wonder if I could get Bill to sign one at an event? Dave, can you make me one? {tic} ROFLMAO



1- If anything I want more new releases!
2- It seems Edition sizes under 9,500 are appropriate at this time.
3- I really don't care about Dealers. I seek out a good one and stay with them!!!
4- GLOWs, I just want the LE to stand out and to always be the BEST Harbour Lights has to offer!

I may not always agree with what HL is doing, but I love them like family!


[This message has been edited by SThompson (edited 02-08-2002).]

Here's my 2 cents on this with my limited experience in this whole area. I believe that Bill and his buds should go after the EVIL dealers that are not holding up their end of the contract with HIS company. There are way to many new releases of OE's and LE's on ebay for them to be collectors after the secondary market. They could only be Dealers looking for the quick sale at reduced prices or in some (rare) cases more profit. An example, the OE of Liberty that went for $80+ (I think). Get rid of those EVIL dealers and that should help the market out a lot. There is no substitute for an honest dealer you trust. I believe that these EVIL dealers are the one who are doing the greatest damage. Because of this undercutting of the SRP, it's the honest dealer who get hurt. It's the EVIL dealers who are causing the market price to drop and forcing the honest dealers to compete for limited $. In some cases the GOOD guy's need to do something drastic to save their business. Don't get me wrong, I have bought (twice) RETIRED pieces on ebay at above list. In each case it was from a dealer who had put some LE's away for just that purpose. However, I don't think this makes an EVIL dealer the pieces were retired and the dealer took a chance on what will fly and what will not. But, what about the dealer who holds some of his stock for sale later on the secondary market? I have bought a retired piece (HL110) on the web (not ebay), that I found on a slow day at work. I was looking at HL dealer web sites that I found using the Harbour Lights search engine. They were holding the Yaquina piece, with several others of the original 17 to sale on ebay at some point in the future. By holding pieces in stock are they effecting the secondary market? I don't know, but one thing I am sure of, get rid of the EVIL dealer.

Chuck

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bigdragon

Let me try responding to JC's paean to laissez-faire business practices. I think there are several issues hiding in here, though my intent is more descriptive than prescriptive. But we'll rattle a few flower pots along the way and see what shakes out. :-)

1. If by 'telling Y&A how to run their business' one means telling them how to distribute their product, what accounting methods to use, who to hire, etc. then yes, of course, the commentors in this forum don't and shouldn't hold much sway or have a say. Someone starts a business and its their obligations and liabilites, profits and losses.

As far as product offerings, ie, quality, price, availability, etc. - who are we to speak? We are the marketplace. We are the customer. We are the means by which their motives (profit, etc.) are realized.

Does the business have the 'right' to a 'take it or leave it' attitude - an 'if you don't like it, don't buy it' viewpoint? Sure they do. Nonetheless, many companies find that listening to what their customers like and don't like is ultimately in their own best interest.

Which brings us to two more interesting issues: self-interest, and who is the customer.

2. The self-interest of Y&A is not the self-interest of their customers. Y&A is out to make a profit in their business so they can put food on the table, pay the rent, travel around the world, feel like they've accomplished something in life by promoting lighthouse preservation, etc. etc.

The self-interest of the customer is a trickier issue. The customer is interested in acquiring a lighthouse replica based on their desire to have something that pleases them. Apparently there are enough folks with this desire that several companies exist trying to fulfill it.

However, the self-interest of some people goes beyond the simple pleasure that comes from a lighthouse replica. Some people are not only willing to pay a couple grocery bags worth for a lighthouse model - they want their purchase to retain and preferably increase in value. Now why is this? *That* is a question the answer to which is very complex.

HL promotes its primary product as 'Limited Edition Collectible Lighthouse models'. These are manufactured rarities - that is, the product line is intended to be of limited availability and promoted in a way that people will want to own several (many) of these models. There are Collector Forums, a Collector's Society, Collector Clubs, Collector Events, etc. - all geared toward encouraging Collecting. Unlike, for example, Morgan Silver Dollars, HL models were designed from the start as Collectibles - they bear the characteristics of a thing manufactured for the express purpose of being both appealing in and of itself (aesthetics) and appealing for the liklihood they will retain or increase in value.

While HL doesn't openly talk about the secondary market, they and everyone else acknowledges that the success of their product results to a large extent on there being a post-retail mechanism for the value part of the equation to play out. There is no Scassis secondary market, there is not much of one for Lefton, or Spencer-Collins. The existence of a viable secondary market - and the rarity/valuation component it addresses is an absolutely essential ingredient to the success of Y&A. People might still buy them if there were not, but there would not be Collector Societies, Clubs, Events, etc. without it.

The self-interest of the Collector (the primary customer for the primary product line) wanting to see his/her collection hold and increase in value has become in conflict with the self-interest of Y&A. Or at least thats how I interpret the reason behind people waving placards (to use JC's notion) that say 'down with Glows' or 'reduce edition sizes' or whatever.

Y&A is trying to walk a very fine line - and to some extent they've been very adept at doing so. On the one hand they want to continue promoting and selling 'Limited Edition Lighthouse Collectibles' and on the other hand they want more than this. They want to make money selling other lighthouse model products. That portion of the Collecting community who hopes to see their purchase hold or rise in value is saying the products promoted by Y&A outside the realm of the LE models is not in their (the Collectors) self-interest.

Part of the conflict in self-interest comes from people buying into the notion of a Collectible. A notion that HL promotes. Again they don't openly say 'buy these models because they will be rare some day' - but their success is predicated on this being an inherent part of the appeal. (Again, without a secondary market, the Y&A company probably is much less viable).

So the placard wavers (I have been one wrt glows) don't really care whether Y&A thinks they have the right to say what they do - that community is saying what they believe is in their own best interest. Part of the passion behind this is because some of the Collecting Community has bought into the notion of these things as Collectibles - the very notion HL wants to promote. One might make the case that HL, with high edition sizes and look-alike Glows, is biting the hand that feeds them. Does HL have the right to do this - of course they do - youse pays yer money and takes yer chances - no one forces you to buy lighthouse models, much less nicely made ones from Harbour Lights.

So do the Youngers have every right to make whatever decisions they wish - of course they do and more power to them. But their business is based on that part of the human psyche that causes people to desire pretty things and especially pretty things that might increase in value. So whether they like having suggestions made to them or not, Y&A will simply have to put up with all the little monsters they've helped create. :-)

Of course there is a path before us where the self-interest of both parties can come more into alignment. That's another discussion...

3. So who is the customer? And what is the customer? The placard wavers are saying - hey we are your primary customer - we are why your business is successful. We have bought into the concept you have promoted and you have an obligation to us because of that. The placard wavers believe Y&A should not engage in actions that run contrary to the self-interest of Collectors of Limited Edition lighthouse models.

Y&A seems to be saying - welllll... yes, but ,,, we think we can have other customers and we're selling knick-knacks to these other customers because we can. (I'll bet they hate it when someone calls a Glow a knick-knack.) And the placard wavers are only a small percentage of customer base. And we listen to some of what they say, like not issuing a Glow before an LE. However, we've got profits to make here and we're not satisfied with those that come from our Limited Edition collectibles line. Unfortunately we haven't had much success with anything but lighthouse models, so we're just playing to our strength. This is little bit of what's behind JC's comment that: "Y&A has every right to capitalize on it's successes with lighthouses in whatever manner they want."

So what does it all mean? Jeez I don't know. I suppose its worth tossing out the question (for the dear few who have read this far) - does Y&A have any obligations to the Collecting community who primarily buys Limited Edition models? There are no warranties or compacts. There is (was?) simply the 'idea' that people hold in their mind about the value of these things. For several years the secondary marketplace reflected the reality of this idea. Today its saying there may not be as much lustre on the idea as there once was. Is this idea worth preserving? If it is (and I'm not passing judgement here one way or the other) then yes, perhaps all the parties to it - those that helped create it and those who participate in it - have a 'right' to say what is in its best interest. Course this ain't laissez-faire free enterprise which *is* the reality whether we like it or not.

Remember when in the fog to adjust your white balance,
__
/
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 03-12-2002).]

Very well said Tim!!! Also being a placard waiver I feel that there certainly should be an obligation to the Limited Edition Buyers, and as I have been suggesting, keep the GLOWs knick-knacks. The Limited Edition should remain the "BEST" Harbour Lights has to offer. With releases such as Fort Gratiot, Hunting Island, Bolivar, Alcatraz, the newest Pier Light (name escapes me) Harbour Lights has helped to create the fog and blind the collectors with the White Balance adjustment. These lighthouses have on their own fanned the embers on the "No GLOW Debate". I simply don't mind the GLOWs when they are made in such a way as to not compete with the Limited Edition. The GLOWs such as Barnegat, St. Augustine, Tybee, Ponce, Key West, Grosse Point, Big Red, etc... are nice but in my book they don't replace the desire to own the Limited Edition. That's what I want, that's the peace of mind I am looking for. I don't want my lighthouses worth thousands (that would be nice though), I just don't want to pay $70+ dollars for a limited edition this year and see it being discounted for $40 the next. Stores will come and go but I think the level of current discounting reflects more than just dealers going out of business. As suggested above, I think there might be some "Evil Dealers" out there...LOL.

I think that Harbour Lights has the ability to produce the GLOWs and fulfill the demand with a quality lighthouse that beats Scassi, CSC and Lefton. They can produce a wonderful open edition and not have to do it at the expense of their Limited Edition Collectors. I am not saying dispose of a profitable product, it just needs a little tweaking to keep those LEs the "Best"!

IMHO and once again very well said Tim!!!


[This message has been edited by SThompson (edited 02-10-2002).]

Chuck,

I agree that there are "Evil Dealers" out there. Not only do they cut prices of the less desirable ones, they also raise prices on the more popular ones. But you can't lump all dearlers that are going out of business and selling off at %50 as evil. I came across one in my state that, after 27 years in the business, the mall he is in lost both of the anchor stores to a new mall outside of town. His health is failing and he had decided not to go through the stress of moving to the new mall. He is retiring and wants to get his money back out of the hugh inventory of collectibles he has so he can have something to live on. I bought 24 HL's mostly LE's I didn't have. This has created a big storage problem as my new house has virtually no storage space. I saw it as a dealer that got shafted by circumstances beyond his control and was glad to help out. I only wish I had the financial resources to buy everything he had. How is someone in this situation supposed to handle liqidating his inventory? Would HL buy back his supply? They already made their money on him. Why should they take on this kind of extra financial burden?
I bought at %50. Do I feel bad about that. NO WAY. Someone is going to buy them so why not me.I have gotten more with my budget and helped out a dealer at the same time. Does this hurt the LE market. Probably a little. But I also was able to take a few %50 HL's off the market. While I was there a couple was trying to decide what to buy for their son who likes lighthouses but is not a HL collector. I told them everything I know about HL's (which took only a few seconds) And maybe I helped get another Collector started. Maybe some of the people that bought will be so amazed by what they bought they just have to get another, and another and get hooked. Who knows? Sorry Sean I also bought a few GLOWS. Ones that I have been to.

Dale


[This message has been edited by DALE LAWRENCE (edited 02-15-2002).]

Congratulations on the big purchase Dale! I don't blame you for taking advantage of such a great deal. Hey, someone's going to buy them, might as well be you. What is this guy to do anyway? He has to recoup the money he put out to buy them originally. Since he is closing his store, he has to liquidate his inventory somehow. I don't see a problem with what he did or what you did! IMHO

Maybe Harbour lights should be made avaiable on Priceline.com. There one can name their own price. It would be interesting to see what some people would offer to pay for some pieces.

I would rather see Harbour Lights continue their relationship with their dealers across the country and not go to marketing groups such as Priceline.com.

If such an opportunity arises that would be beneficial to the financial stability of the company, I would hope they would do it under another business name.

Leave the Harbour Lights Collectibles at quality dealers throughout the country and the world.

Bob

And so the saga continues:

http://www.lighthousekeepers.com/forums/Forum28/HTML/000138.html

[This message has been edited by TheLightkeeper (edited 03-05-2002).]

And so the saga continues:

THE misGUIDING LIGHThouse dealer

http://www.lighthousekeepers.com/forums/Forum28/HTML/000138.html

opps!!!
see below

Opps see above again for something new.

Dale,

I was not referring to dealers fighting for their survival or on bad times for other reasons as evil. It the one's like Linda's Gift Shop that are the problem, and they hurt us all. Linda (5cats1kid) is not very smart because she can have her contract yanked for what she is doing. It's the one who are selling below SRP for a fast buck and quick turn over under the cloak of anonymity on ebay that are the evil dealers. I have nothing against picking up pieces below list since I am not a rich man and my taste in Harbour Lights far exceed my allowance. I ask my daughter (my dealer) about the "Suggested Retail Price" and how "Suggested" it was. She said it is a very firm suggestion and that some company's were real anal about the whole thing. While HL in fairly relaxed (her words) about such thing there are other company's that carry out suprise rep visits and have false shoppers to check if they are following the "Suggested Retail Price". These false shoppers and sales rep's test the store employees for their knowledge of the products that they represent. However, once the piece retires all bets are off and the company has no say in who or how much they sale the piece for. Before anyone says rumors and hearsay I will tell you my daughter Amanda has experienced both of these first hand. Of course, she passed with flying colors because she is the smartest daughter in the whole world.

Chuck

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bigdragon

[This message has been edited by shiulong (edited 03-05-2002).]

[This message has been edited by shiulong (edited 03-05-2002).]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!! There now I feel better!!!

Gee Digger I hope that wasn't aimed at me.

Chuck

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bigdragon

Not at all Chuck. Just brain tremors from catching up on all the reading here and trying to absorb everyones comments in one setting!!

Looks like this topic finally went dead! Well, it lasted quite awhile and received enough posts though!

Until the next sale......

Christopher

Nothing new to add I just wanted to get post 100 . Cool the century mark.

Chuck

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bigdragon

Let me be the first to congratulate you Chuck on the "century" mark! Lots of posts on this subject in this forum!