This topic has been simmering for a while now and there are a variety of angles to it. I'm talking about dealers who sell HL models at a discounted price.

There's a number of different classifications of what we might call a dealer and it may be important to sort them out for the purposes of this discussion.

A. Regular dealers in contract with HL who are currently in business. I'll assume there are no pure-play e-only dealers contracted with HL - that is dealers without a storefront. Let us know if otherwise.

B. Regular dealers in contract with HL who are going out of business.

C. Regular dealers in contract wiht HL who are not going out of business but are dropping the HL line-up.

D. Secondary dealers. There's a least two sub-classes of these:

D.1 Mainline secondary dealers who buy regularly with the intent to sell and who are doing so as more than a hobby. Let's say more than 10 lights sold per year. These dealers often trade in other collectible/Collectible lines. Some may even pay taxes on their profits.

D.2 Hobbyist secondary dealers who know the line well and aren't hesitant to take advantage of their knowledge, but are reluctant to invest much in inventory and buy/sell only on opportunity. The recent Fresnel Flare Up is an example where more than a few folks were tempted to jump into the game. The intent is profit.

E. Hobbyists. These are folks who'll occasionally get an extra model and use it to trade or sell to buy a piece they don't have. Intent largely is reinvestment within the hobby.

F. Ex-Hobbyists or Wannabe-Ex-Hobbyists. These are folks who for whatever reason are getting rid of their collection in whole or part.

The Secondary Market is usually thought to cover the buy/sell/trade of pieces after retirement. Technically, I suppose the Secondary Market also covers the sale/trade of a piece after it has been purchased from an official HL dealer. (If I bought an extra Fresnel from my dealer and put it on e-Bay before all the models have been delivered to collectos I'm acting on the Secondary.)

Any of these folks are capable of selling HL models for less than retail. While a piece sold for less than retail can be considered 'discounted', I think we need a more refined notion based on the concerns/views expressed. For purposes of dicussion I believe the concern is with types A/B/C dealers who sell models they have purchased from their Y&A distributor for less than the Y&A set retail price. (I think that's typically double the wholesale price.)

Concern? Well just what is the concern?

It seems lottsa people think a discounted HL model is, as Martha might say, 'a good thing'. This is your basic self-interested point of view. "I love lighthouse models and if I can get them cheaper than retail then thats good cause I can get more of them that way than I could if I had to pay full retail. And as long as everything is on the up-and-up I really don't care who I buy from at less than retail - a deal's a deal". And variations of this.

And then there is the dealer's perspective. "I can't get rid of the d*mn things at full price - nobody is buying them. HL got greedy and thought they could sell 10,000 of 'em and so did I but the market is saturated and there's no interest in these backwater lighthouses. What am I supposed to do with 13 Selkirks - heck I heard there was a guy selling 'em outta the back of a van last year and my kid needs braces. I can't afford to take a loss - I'm gonna get Roscoe my brother-in-law to put 'em on E-bay at forty bucks a pop."

Willing buyer, willing seller - whats the problem?

On the other hand...

Some folks think that discounting of non-retired pieces by dealer types A/B/C is 'not a good thing'. There seems to be two basic arguments:

1. The official HL dealer has signed a contract with Y&A to sell the models at a set price - the full retail price. This is not a contract whose fulfillment is based on the dealer's whim. It's a legally binding arrangement - a promise made between two parties. And, so the concern goes, breaking this promise is wrong, legally and in the moral sense that one should keep one's promises whether there's money involved or not. A contract is a contract, a promise is a promise. If not, the whole concept of contracts and promise keeping goes down the toilet.

2. It's bad for the hobby when dealer types A/B/C sell non-retired pieces at less than full retail - however they do it (E-bay, E-mail, E-pssst-hey-buddy-wanna-buy-a-Macquairie-real-cheap?) Its bad for the hobby because ultimately discounting reduces the value of all pieces and brings the LE's closer and closer to becoming commodities. And commodities are not Collectibles - even though you can acquire alot of 'em. When that happens the whole magical fairy tale of HL Collectibles goes up in smoke.

Just as an increase in the price of the rare hard-to-find pieces like NPL or Key West leads to an increase in the price of more mundane models and increases collector excitement, the commoditization of non-retired pieces drags down values across the entire line. Discounting today makes that Hilton Head you paid $350 for last year worth less. Not inherently but psychologically.

OK - keep scrolling - here comes the rant part...

Don't for a second believe the psychology of Collecting doesn't play a big big role on the demand factor. Collectibles rest on a house of cards of value perception. Doesn't matter how rare a thing is, if it's not perceived as desirable its price will be low. And thats why dealer discounting hurts the hobby - it says, for whatever reason, that these little models aren't really worth what some other dealers are sellin 'em for. The impact of this by one or two dealers is negligible - but when it becomes highly visible such as made possible by the likes of eBay the perception quickens. The more discounting the more harm is done.

'Ok', sez the self-interested newbie who doesn't have much invested in a collection, but wants to get more and likespaying less. "I buy 'em cuz I love lighthouses not because I expect to make an investment or a big profit. The only people who don't like discounting are those la-dee-da collectors who have two of everything and they're afraid their collection ain't worth what they paid for it." I absolutely believe the longer you are in the hobby the more you will come to understand the downside to this view.

I think the downside is this - if discounting becomes the norm, or even 35% of new model sales then you can kiss the puppy goodbye. There will be no more HL lighthouse model Collectibles as we know them today. Forget value or high-priced secondary pieces - I said no more lighthouse model Collectibles, period. I doubt we'll even have a 'World of GLOWs'. (Which by-the-by HL - your are listening aren't you HL - are just a self-inflicted version of the same factor.) No more guaranteed sell-outs of 3000 pieces out of 6000 in the first year. No more Fresnels sold-out-to-dealers after 3 days. (GLOWs are a success because LEs are a success. Pardon my digression. If HL thought they could make it on commodities they woulda started w/ GLOWs.)

Discounting deconstructs the mental perception, carefully built up over the years, of desirability and worth. Read that sentence again - Discounting deconstructs the mental perception, carefully built up over the years, of desirability and worth. And then someone pipes up "But I'd collect them even if they were cheap and commodities - because I just love lighthouses." Yeah? How many Scassis or Leftons do you own? I don't believe it for a minute. Is there another forum on the Web with devoted excited followers of commoditiy collectibles? I don't think so. We can tolerate GLOWs because there are LEs. But discounting is a direct attack of the whole idea that the LE represents. Folks - the model is on your shelf, but the thrill is in your head.

Don't underestimate the potential for discounting to produce a deleterious wildfire effect. The more discounting there is the more there will be. Otherwise honorable dealers will feel compelled to discount in order to survive. How much discounting will it take to reach the 'tip-over' point? We don't want to find out do we?

Of course HL is control of their own destiny to a large degree. And of course they can have no influence over the human nature aspects that make it hard for people 'to turn down a deal'. While they can't undo the large edition sizes of the past - I'm sure they'll agree in hindsight those were a mistake - they can help protect the future of their line and I'm certain they think about this every day. Keep the edition sizes small. I'll go so far as to say they should offer to buy back pieces from dealers rather than see them sold at discount. The short term financial impact of a buy back is nothing compared to the potential for disaster that discounting may cause in the long run. (Easy for me to say - I don't have to meet their cash flow.)

OK - call me crazy - a guy arguing for paying full price. (why its almost un-american). But I really like collecting these little models and its not just cuz I love lighthouses. I like the Collecting part. And wanna it to continue. I really don't care if the number of collectors grows such that 10,000 edition sizes become truly viable. But I do care not to lose the 2000-3000 people who are in it for the long haul.

The price of magic is retail price. There is no discount magic.

From the Fog Signal Building,
__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 01-14-2001).]

Ok, Tim,

Let's get to basics. Econ 101 / supply and demand.

1. Why the discoumt? Low demand. Too many LEs of a type. A blend of desire to have and numbers produced.

4000 Panama Canal. Desire down because of location, correct? Not a real crisis on obtaining pieces, correct?

9500 Sanabel. Popular tourist location. New type model. Desire up because?

Eddystone? Who knows. Does nothing for me and this is a 10 year piece. Disappointing to me.

I am glad '97 was a heavy production year. Enabled me to get a late start.

The size of this production operation of late has the tendancy to reduce the number of persons collecting all pieces. Catch up close to impossible without discount.

Price controls do not, I repeat, do not work in the government sector. If the production is too great, they won't work here either. I mean look at energy costs in California and the rolling brownouts because of government intervention. It is a matter of pure economics. Pure and simple.

If Harbour Lights can control production to match sincere collector's demand, they will continue to produce quality collectibles that enable them to make a profit. If on the other hand, they become greedy, their life expectancy will be short in the 21st century.

I do collect because I love what I obtain. One of a few. Regulation of prices without following tried and true economic pricipals will only fail.

Let's here from other new and old collectors!

Just the way I see it IMHO.

Moby

I agree Moby! Discounting exists because there is a bigger production than demand, imho. It's not the fault of the dealer, it's a market flooded by Harbour Lights.

Just the way two people see it....

Quote:
"Discounting deconstructs the mental perception, carefully built up over the years, of desirability and worth. "

This is absolutely correct. But what does a glut of pieces that won't sell do to mental perception? It probably causes as much damage to the psyche.

It's a tough call...there's no one right answer. But the fact remains: Harbour Lights flooded dealer shelves. They've since 'seen the light' and have cut back on edition sizes dramatically. That's good.

But there still remains the problem of Selkirks and Wind Points and Brant Points and....on and on and on...to deal with. As long as customers keep seeing the same "old" pieces on the shelves---not moving day after day afrter month after year---their psyches are not going to move, either.

So how do Harbour Lights and their dealers handle that? How do they "clean the slate" so that people will really take notice of their new, limited-supply orientation?

Either the company needs to coordinate a major buy-back, or...hate to say it...they need to authorize a discount plan. Perhaps a maximum of 20-25% off on pieces that have been around a minimum of 3 years. This gives stores some legal leeway, and may help get us out of this product logjam we're in.

In the past, I've said that an edition size of 6,500 would be about right. They've done this. I would now suggest that a major impact might be made if they went back to their original 5,500 size.

Big, sticky issue here. Excellent food for thought as we enter the mid-winter doldrums.

St. Timoteo has hit it on the head as far as I'm concerned. It's no secret how I feel about dealer discounting. For those of you who are new, I'm totally against it, more so because of the contractual agreement.

I do feel for those dealers who have pieces they cannot sell because there just isn't a market for certain pieces. One of my local dealers cannot keep a large number of pieces in the back because of overhead and storage availability. Let's face it, HLs are not the only collectibles they sell. They have a concern for those pieces that will not sell because of low collector interest. This area of the country sells more of the southeastern lights than any other. They are just more popular because of locality, and the same goes for those dealers in New England, the Pacific northwest, etc.

So what's the solution? HL not producing large edition sizes? As a collector, that works for me. My personal opinion is keep them around 5,500.

Here is another thought... is there a network setup between dealers? Otherwords, a dealer in North Carolina has a few Cape Elizabeths they can't get rid of, however a dealer in Maine has none, but has someone who is interested in a piece. If there was a network setup, the dealer in Maine can either contact HL for a name of a dealer who has this piece, or through some form of a program, go online, make an inquiry, and find this piece for their customer from the dealer in North Carolina. This could all work off of a dealer's inventory. This would be somewhat of a quasi form of the Retired@Retail program that is set-up now. I know, I know... "who has the man power to set something like this up if it doesn't already exist?" "Who has the time to enter all of their shelf bound pieces into a database?" There are so many other questions as well. Many dealers out there are very small, with only a few people working. They may not have the capability, or the means of going online. And then, no matter what, a large edition piece may not sell regardless. That's when HL should step in, maybe retire the piece early, and purchase back those remaining.

In any case, just a few thoughts from this bos'n mate who is trying to help with a solution.

Tim - Keeping the flame lit...

Good for you Bill, I've been saying this for a while now:

October 8 1999: "Keep prices the same and take the LE edition size back to 5500. That way they'll stay collectible and much more likely to hold their value."

November 6 1999: "5500 worked real well."

November 14, 1999: "Set the LE edition size at 5500. Promote the minis. Drop the GLOWS."

March 3, 2000: "As far as edition size goes, I continue to believe 5500 is the right number - thats the edition size that built Collector's interest, and 9500 killed the market."

HL still hasn't quite learned. Do we really need 10,000 South Bass Islands or 7000 Ft. Gratiots?



Yes. If you mean relative to the number of models on the market, I agree. And don't think for a moment that GLOWs and Little Lights don't count as part of "the size of production". I'll continue to beat the same drum (dead horse?) as I have been, namely there are only so many disposable dollars available to be spent on lighthouse models. One more time: All non-LE pieces take sales away from Limited Editions.

Of course, discounting is a function of over-supply. I think we can all agree on the this rather non-mysterious cause. My point is a different one, that is Don't Support Discounters.



There ain't gonna be no catch-up. Won't happen. The market is saturated because the market is only so big. The idea that cheaper models (GLOWs, Little Lites) increase the overall size of Limited Edition collectordom is a myth. The only thing discounting will do is continue to chip away at the golden goose - the idea that Limited Editions are desirable.

The comments about price controls are relevant but only when applied to commodities. LEs aren't commodities, at least not yet. (?) The ones with high edition sizes are pushing things in that direction. The fear is that when a large portion of the entire line-up are commoditized - whether in reality or in peoples perception, then the entire line-up - the whole idea of Collectible Lighthouse Models - loses its appeal.

HL should *not* sanction a dealer discount program to get rid of the over-supply logjam. This is the slippery slope. If the over-stocked models haven't sold by now, then cutting their price won't move 'em out in a big rush - they'll still sit there on the shelf. And, yes I agree Bill, once people see $50 price tags on HL models in their dealers display case for a year or so, the value proposition goes ka-pooey!

But it won't happen through "HL Bargain Days". The best thing that could happen now is if *all* the overstocks disappeared from shelves (real or virtual) in a matter of weeks. Pack 'em - send 'em back, then crush 'em. (Or give them to museums or historical societys with a 'no sale' caveat.) Do it now. Otherwise these will linger on and on. What's the financial hit for Y&A? Dunno. But how they deal with this will tell us what their long term perspective is.

The longer a thing fails to sell, the less it will sell for if and when it does. Some how HL needs to work with the dealer to get the glut off the shelves otherwise the dealer will get rid of 'em anyway they can. We are now paying for the misjudgement that created high edition sizes. It takes far less time to destroy the idea that HL Collectibles are valuable than it has to build that impression. I don't know if we're over the edge yet - but looking at Ebay, one has to wonder.

Some have suggested that we are independent collectors and should not be price-police for HL. I agree. My flailings are not motivated by anything other than a desire to see the hobby continue.

Been been saying it for years - scarcity drives the hobby.

__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 01-14-2001).]

Low edition size is the way to go. The year 2000 saw lower edition sizes with perhaps
some marketing experiments with the different edition sizes 6500,7000, 8000, timed etc.

Now is the time to make standard low edition sizes and maybe even drop timed editions.As for GLOWS I do think that when the LE is gone there is a local and or tourist market
for them . Perhaps HL could limit the total number and or number of years a GLOW is produced and still satisfy the local and tourist market.

One local dealer in my area does not carry LLOM due to the total glut of pieces on the shelf. whatever the outcome as what to do with the glut on the shelf I do agree with those above that will not support discounters
as I will not either.

DO NOT SUPPORT DISCOUNTERS !

Tim, Let me first admit to an error in my spelling of Sanibel. I know I did her an injustice as she is one of the most popular lights done by Younger and Associates. Sorry.
Second, smaller sizes for new additions is the answer and I believe this has been accomplished. As the quality continues to improve with smaller issues, the market will rebound. I see more concern than ever with the American public in their efforts to save the lights that remain and the collection of these choice renditions has only intensified this concern. The two feed on one another.

Moby

Quote: The best thing that could happen now is if *all* the overstocks disappeared from shelves (real or virtual) in a matter of weeks. Pack 'em - send 'em back, then crush 'em. (Or give them to museums or historical societys with a 'no sale' caveat.) Do it now. Otherwise these will linger on and on. What's the financial hit for Y&A? Dunno. But how they deal with this will tell us what their long term perspective is.
-----------

I agree in principle, Tim, but I don't think Harbour Lights will go that far.

So far, they've started retiring pieces after 3 years (most recently the '97's were put to pasture on Dec. 31, 2000)...they've lowered edition sizes across the board on new pieces...and they've started implementing "timed editions."

Is this enough? Certainly not in the short run. Those Old '97's (and even many '96's and most '98's) are going to be around for a good long while.

A Harbour Lights buy-back is probably not feasible for them...for reasons both economics- and pride-related.

Thus the dilemma of discounting. What's a dealer to do? I've seen my dealer's back room. He's a very aggressive (i.e. knowledgable and enthusiastic) dealer, but there's stock that just won't move. Lots of it. If I were him, I'd consider discounting just to move it out of there to make room for all the new stuff. There's a lot of money tied up in that pile of blue boxes.

I truly hope Bill Younger and Co. are aware of the bind their dealers are in. If so, let's hope they're considering "taking a hit for the good of the team" (i.e. implementing a buy-back program). SOON.

[This message has been edited by Bill Harnsberger (edited 01-15-2001).]

I love these discussions. This is what collecting is all about. The thought processes are wonderful and exciting reading. I have been waiting for this topic to raise its head again to make a few observations.
1. Has Y&A hit the wall?
We have been telling them in the Forum for years to scale back their edition sizes. Along with that, there is a general feeling that GLOWS hurt the value of LE's when issued too early after the LE was issued.
A company must continue to expand or it will die. Y&A tried to expand and for the most part, failed.
a. Glows
b. larger edition sizes of LE's
c. spy glass, LLOM, figurines, ornies, trees, dolls, etc.
d. Anchor Bay
e. Pharos
f. now we have Life Saving Stations

I would venture to say that Y&A is disturbed by these outcomes.

2. Wackos cannot support Y&A alone
There are only so many of us willing to purchase much of what Harbour Lights makes. I am talking about the less than famous lights. Y&A makes their profit from producing lights that many thousands of non-wackos will buy such as Hatteras, Portland Head, Augustine, etc. These have already been made and we wackos have asked Y&A not to make anymore in order to increase the value of our private curio collection. These are NOT fantasy houses like David Winter where you can just make a new one. These are REAL and they are limited in number. I suspect that the non-wacko is not going to pick up a White River because he likes the style or he visited there one summer. The non-wacko WILL buy the Hatteras because it's famous and in a resort area. Except for HOTM, we have asked Y&A not to produce more Hatteras'. We have placed Y&A into a "Catch 22". They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
In short, we the collectors want true collectibles but at the same time must realize that Y&A must be able to turn a profit. There are maybe no more high profile lights for them to produce that will turn that profit for them. They continue to search for periferal lights to make, like the Fresnel, but how long can this last?
-Joe



[This message has been edited by easya (edited 01-15-2001).]

Of course I always take a different view of things. Actually all I see here is a lot of smoke but no fire. I think this is being blown out of proportion.

My feeling is that the biggest reason some pieces are left on the shelf is not necessarily due to the fact that the edition size was too high, but more that the price was too high. There are a lot of mediocre (don't kill me now) pieces out there that I would not pay full retail price. In actuality, a lot of pieces were priced about 20 percent more than I thought was fair. Let's face it, not every piece can be a WOW (may I use that Bill?). Examples of this are Pigeon Point at $68; Old Saybrook at $69; Grey's Harbour at $75; Grand Traverse at $80. If these pieces had come out at 15 percent less, would they have sold a lot faster thus elminiating the need for discounting?

Also, as I've said before, a lot of dealers offer a bonus of $1 for each $10 spent, thus creating a quasi discount. Buy two pieces at $170 - get $17 off your next purchase. Do you consider this a breach of contract. You should.

When someone sees my collection, I'm asked for details of a particular lighthouse not the value of the piece or collection. I've never said, "This is Minot's Ledge - it's worth about $135 now." It's Minot's Ledge and is priceless to me regardless what the secondary or retail value is at present.

As far as honoring a contract. Yes, if I signed a contract I would honor it but if I found that I was not reaping all the benefits of that contract, I would either try to renegotiate or I would drop the line. Unfortunately, it seems that is what a lot of dealers are doing - dropping the line. So instead of protecting the future of HL's maybe the contract as written is hurting the line. Also, as far as trading pieces with other dealers, well there's a lot of cost involved: time, supplies, shipping, breakage...so selling at 20 or 30 percent off may actually be less costly to the dealer.

Joanne

Well we all have our views about what a company should do without us risking our savings to do it. HL is a great company that has done more things for more people than we will ever realize. If you are a serious collector, sooner or later you will meet the Youngers at a reunion, signing, regional event, lighthouse lecture or whatever. Once you meet them you will also realize what great people they are and how friendly they can be.

Like with any company, certain risks are taken to improve the income of the company and insure a profitable future to guarantee longevity. Many of the early 5500 edition sizes sold out leaving the company with the impression the collector base of the company had grown. They expirimented with larger edition sizes with the hopes of making pieces availible to everyone who wanted one without putting too many on the dealer's shelves that linger longer than anticipated. Through this trial and error program, they came to realize they had created an edition size too large. Collectors complained and, BINGO, edition sizes started to be reduced.

The bottom line is HL listens to its collectors. They provide us with something we want and we respond by supporting their company.

IMHO, the future for Harbour Lights is in smaller edition sizes. This sets up the hunt and buying frenzy that any company would be proud to have for their product.

What to do with the over-stock of the largest edition sizes? Give them a time limit on the shelf then bite the bullet and crush them. After the extras are destroyed, collectors will scurry to buy some of the left over high edition pieces anticipating the probablity that they will suddenly be hard to come by. If they have to have them all they better make the move before the prized piece disappears from the retail market.

Now all us collectors will be happy because the HLs we have will be a little harder for someone to come by without paying a secondary market price.

This makes sense to me, ...how about you?

Bob

I don't think anybody could possibly think otherwise! I would rather have Harbour Lights continue to find that optimum number than make crushing lighthouses a norm. Sheesh what could make a collectible look weaker, imho. Once we have gotten beyond the affects of the 9,000 and above edition sizes I would hope that we would see less discounting. Again I still feel that Retired Lighthouses sitting on the dealer's shelves versus being in the hands of the collector is a bigger killer of a secondary market than someone saving a few percent off retail. imho.

Welcome to the FSB where you always get your word's worth. :-) Good comments from all!



I think you answered your own question, Sean. What could make a Collectible look weaker is a large quantity of unsold models from several years back getting dusty on the shelves. I agree that destruction of models should definitely not be the norm. But its a way out of the present situation that from my perspective is far better than discounting. I don't believe discounting will work because the buyers aren't there. If I thought a one-time HL sanctioned 20% price reduction of high-excess models would move 'em off the shelves quickly, I'd consider that a viable option.

I'll grant there may be a few collectors who haven't made certain purchases because they figure 'they'll always be available'. Discounting probably won't draw them out because the availability will remain the same. Perhaps an announcement of a limited time discount after which the remaining models get turned to dust could spur those purchases. Or pre-set a retirement date for all models regardless of edition size. 'After three years its gone, regardless'.

Part of the issue is restoring sufficient dealer faith to invest in purchases knowing they won't have to take a bath if a model doesn't pan out. Once a dealer has dropped a line I suspect it takes years for them to return to it, if they ever do. It would be interesting to hear from HL the business model they think works best after the most popular lights have been made.

As far as the price being too high I believe it would be a mistake to create a price differential based on aesthetics. Different folks have different perceptions and motivations. For example, Grand Traverse is a beautiful model, imo - but there's probably too many of 'em. I'd advocate high quality smaller edition sizes with higher prices rather than lower prices and higher edition sizes.

Fog, not smoke, fog. :-)
__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 01-15-2001).]

A lively exchange is healthy. Harbour Lights is alive and well. We have proved it on this forum. They will listen and act accordingly. Let's keep the flame.

Moby

Moby-
You are absolutely on track. HL will remain the prime collectible for the true L/H seekers, since the quality is far above all others.

Just tossing my line in the water.Say HL did a buy back from the dealers and were able to donate the pieces to schools for display purposes.Could they not get a tax write-off,put their name on more lips,show others what Wackos already know about their generosity and at the same time develope a love of these American(and international)treasures in our young folks.


terry

Quote: What could make a Collectible look weaker is a large quantity of unsold models from several years back getting dusty on the shelves.
------------

That's a good point worth mentioning. Dealers typically don't dust their collections. When I go to my local dealer, I make a point to take a couple older pieces down and blow the dust off. It's bad. It just makes the old pieces look older...and less desirable.

Here's another point to ponder. How many wackos are there? I mean those who are serious about collecting. Anyone want to venture a educated guess?

If you reduce the production output, should you not protect wackos who are serious collectors.

Moby

Maybe you think I did Tim but with my hat spun around backwards and speaking strictly as a collector or even worse a potential new collector worried about my future investment and not as a lighthouse lover. I would be a little concerned to here that the collectible I am buying has a normal policy of bulldozing unsold editions into the local landfill. Maybe dusty lighthouses are a bigger concern? LOL

>>I would be a little concerned to here that the collectible I am buying has a normal policy of bulldozing unsold editions into the local landfill. <<

There are worse things than finding out your 9,500 edition size piece is now a 7,500 edition size piece.

Not a landfill - a memorial reef. :-)

I went into a store that starting this coming Monday is going to have major renovations. Most of their inventory was reduced 30 percent including HL's. What is a store supposed to do when they need to be fairly empty in order to renovate their facility? There always has to be an exception to the rule.

Joanne

There is a Hallmark store near where I live that I go to every few weeks to see if they put out any new lights or maybe an old one found in the back. I have not seen too many pieces move off of their shelves in many months! Most have been in their original spot collecting dust for a few years!

On the other hand, I just happened into a local mall this past summer during a "sidewalk sale". One of the stores there sells Harbour Lights and had them on sale amongst other collectable items. The store had them at 40% off retail. Did I buy any? You better believe it! I purchased 5 pieces that I hadn't gotten yet. They were pieces from 1998 and 1999. I knew the store owner from previous purchases and asked him why he had them at a discount. He told me his sales rep. "talked" him into buying 10 of each model that came out back then, so he did. He told me sales were very slow on these pieces, so during this mall wide sale, he decided to get rid of some extras to make room for Chirstmas items coming in shortly.

While I was making my purchase, I saw many HL's going out the door! Don't know if these people were buying because they collect them or the discount or both! I know I was lucky to get the ones I did before they were all gone. I also know that he would not have sold all those lights if he did not have them on sale out at the front of the store. Did he make much on the sales? No, but he did move a lot of inventory that was taking up space back in his small storeroom. He also learned not to order so many pieces from his rep. in the future!

Interesting story, Randy. In all this debate, one of the voices that's missing is that of the dealer. I wonder how they'd respond. I wonder if Harbour Lights conducts surveys of their dealers for feedback. If so, I bet they've gotten an earful...especially from dealers who feel they were "talked into" buying a lot of pieces.

Certainly what we're seeing with all the discounting going on is simply a messy, though necessary, cleansing of the system. There are---gosh, maybe 50-60 pieces that were produced in excess of demand, and most of them are still on shelves.

I seriously doubt Harbour Lights is going to call their babies back home to be crushed. The only solution then---to the dealer, anyway---is discounting. Some dealers know how to quietly offer discounts to their customers...others do it publicly. But, barring other solutions, it needs to be done.

What to do to move the unmoveable? If you can't "crush" them then the only other alternative is to offer incentives to move them out of the stores.

The first thing would be not to produce the entire edition size if it hasn't already been done. Maybe a Harbour Lights approved special like buy a 2001 HL model and get one of these particular lights for 50% off. If approved by HL the dealer would not be violating any contractual aggreements and the "over-stock" would start to disappear.

The target should be the fairly new or potentially new collectors who feel really great when they get a deal. We've all had that rush when we tried to buy as many HLs as we could within our expendable budget.

Another alternative would be a HL Dealer Swap Line. This would move non-regional lights off a dealer's shelves to be replace by ones from their area. A New England dealer has a better chance of selling a New England light to a tourist/non-HL collector than he or she would if their store had lights from the other regions of the country. I think casual collectors buy replicas of things they just saw rather than purchasing the never-heard-of or never-seen light from somewhere they never been.

What do you think of this idea?

Bob

Love it. Under your proposed arrangement, the feeling that Harbour Lights---or the dealer---is "dumping" inventory is lessened considerably. It's a great way for collectors to affordably back-fill their collections. I think a lot of collectors would go for it. You could potentially get two lighthouses for around a hundred bucks---not bad.

On the flip side, dealers reduce their inventory---both old and new---over the course of a single sale.

If they act on this quickly, Harbour Lights could positioon it as a "Thank You" for 10 years of customer loyalty.



[This message has been edited by Bill Harnsberger (edited 01-19-2001).]

I've been following this thread with interest and have seen some very creative approaches. (I especially like Bob's idea.)
I was wondering if anyone can think of an industry besides collectibles where the manufacturer dictates a retail price to the retailer.
If I were to play devil's advocate, I'd say that if HL wants to set retail prices in stone and prevent discounting, then they should retail their products themselves through catalog sales.

Dave

No offense, but... where have I heard this before?

Tim - Keeping the flame lit...

Dave,

Leather goods often have a suggested retail price sticker preprinted by the manufacturer. For example, Coach and Etienne Aigner's prices are the same in each store you go into, but I do see them go on a 25% off sale every now and then. I can't make any guess though if there is a contract involved to always sell at the suggested retail price. Both lines also have stores in outlet malls.

[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 01-19-2001).]