It seems to me that there is a topic that was here yesterday (9-18)with a number of responses that seems to be among the missing today (9-19).

Anybody else have that same observation, or am I losing it?

Maybe it's just a little too foggy in here.

Dennis

Maybe we should install a louder Fog Horn in here for you Dennis. :p

What was the topic about?

BJE

BonnieJean,

It was about a vote being taken on USA Today's site about removing, or not removing, certain words from the Pledge Of Allegiance.

I believe one of the responses to that thread was from you.

Stranger yet is when i do a search for that thread all of the responses are listed, but if you click on them you are taken to my post that I have just edited to add this line.

As they say "Curiouser and Curiouser."

I do have to say things like this have happened before, not often but occasionally.

Dennis

You're right Dennis. I've searched the whole site for the subject, but couldn't find it either. I guess that it was too controversial - so much for our Freedom of Speech!

BJE

The post was apparently removed shortly after I scored several brilliant debate points...just, just, just STUNNINGLY incisive. In fact, I offered algabraeic proof of the meaning of life and its direct correlation to the supply of strawberry daiquiris. Unfortunately, it's now gone. An act of God, perhaps??

Sorry I missed your post Bill - I would have liked to read it since you and I seem to be a minority in our thinking.

BonnieJean

Bill,

Your're close- I doubt it was an act of God, but it was definitely the act of a Saint or a Saint's helper.

This usually only happens when we say something more directly related to Harbour Lights that is, shall we say not completely complementary.

I thought the subject was being discussed in the right place- the Fog Signal building. I understand that some wish to keep controversial subjects out, but we were being courteous to one another.

This things happen occasionally. We will survive.

Now, I wonder if a thread asking about a thread that has vanished can vanish also.

Dennis

Well, since we're not really having this conversation I guess it can.

*** On the count of three you will open your eyes and feel refreshed. You will no longer worry about subjects that were never on the forum. And you will no longer need to eat a hundred Krispy Kremes before seeing your mother-in-law. ***

BJE

Okay, let me tell you good folks something. And I can tell you this because I'm completely sober.

Okay, I lied. I've had two glasses of Cabernet, So at least I'm sophisticatedly intoxicated. But the point is...

I love you guys (and ladies, I'm lumping you in with the guys but...you know what I mean). You're family to me, even though I've never met you personally. I love debates on subjects in which I am very passionate---such as the topic that was deleted this morning. I go out of my way to infuse humor (some of it successful, some of it not) into my posts and I don't believe I've ever made a derogatory comment about an individual.

I also stand by a Saint or Cruise Director's decision to delete a post if he/she believes it is not appropriate for a particular forum. Such is the case with the "Pledge" thread, which someone else started and in which I offered my two cents.

Further, I believe that everyone else who participated in that thread was equally passionate and civil. I welcome the opportunity that others provide to think about issues in a different light.

Nobody on this earth (in my opinion) wants to believe in God and Heaven---or some spiritual existence apart from this earth---more than I do. I don't believe faith alone is enough, however, and thus far I haven't been convinced by any evidence beyond that to make me believe that we are anything but food for worms when we die. That's where I am at this point in my life. What can I say?

So, to wrap this up (I have to pee)...I enjoyed the discussion, but I fully support the decision to remove the post. I'm wondering if it might have enjoyed a longer life in the "Nothing to do with Anything" forum (although that begs the question: God has nothing to do with anything? Even I'm not so courageous as to make a statement like that!)

My best,

Bill

FWIW, there are three possibilities for what happend to the thread that is MIA

(1) It (the software) took a hit and the thread was the victim

(2) The person who started the thread decided to delete their original post, which will delete the entire thread

(3) It was removed by someone with administrative powers over this room

Don't know which of the three, but there have been discussions on this board that would be considered as controversial. If it was removed, I would believe there was a reason for it.

Dave

Maybe they will put a link to that thread on the Harbour Lights website where the link to the forums used to be.

How about that, Agent Scully?

I'm not sure if that's true, but I overheard it at Shoney's.

Twasn't me...

Well,

That leaves three, well four possibilities.

1. George did it. He started it.

2. Tim did it. He's the moderator.

3. It's a software problem or

4. Maybe Bill was right and we angered someone else.

Dennis

I had nothing to do with the disappearence of the thread but I'm glad it's gone. Freedom of religion is important especially to those who seek comfort through it. I personally feel that discussing "God" in a Collector's Forum is not what we should be doing. The "thoughts and prayers" for those of us who need support in troubling times is a good thing to do. Let's leave it at that...

God Bless America!

Bob

Not only, I didn't have anything to do with it(disappearence of the thread), it is one of the few threads in all of the years of the forums that I didn't even have a chance to read. We are making major changes in the operation of our news department at work.... most of which affect me directly.

Well I have the power but I wont confirm or deny. If the person that deleted (presuming it was deleted) the thread doesn't wish to have to defend their decision you detectives will have to figure it out without me.

I missed the original thread too, although I'm assuming it had to do with the "under God" in the pledge. If it was a link to a poll and some harmless discussion, what's the big deal? Where all (or mostly) grown ups here. Can we not talk about things larger than LE's every now and then? I understand that folks have the power to zap any thread, but why not stand up and admit you did it. Everyone else in here has their name right next to a post. We don't get the advantage of anonimity. Sure you might not know who we really are, but you know this is Lou from the forums. If you feel strongly enough about it to delete it, just let us know why. Or better yet, why not just make a post with your take on the whole thing. If it's worth deleting, isn't it worth stating your case?

I've had one post deleted since I joined up. I responded to a marketplace post, and the moderator took it out. Then he told my why. I respect that and had no problem with it. The same here would be nice. It has obviously peaked the interest of many. Look how many posts in less than 2 days.

Whatever side of the pledge thing you come down on, what's the harm in talking about it? It's nice to hear what a familiar voice has to say about something other than glows every now and then. It's why there are a few spots in here dedicated to non-lighthouse issues. I hope those discussions won't die anytime soon.

Very well stated Lou! I agree, everyone was being civil with their comments and disagreements. The thread being deleted without warning or comment just confirms that our Freedom of Speech, Choice, and Religious is actually dictated by those with more power and that our voices aren't heard over the roar of those that try to control our Freedoms. If the thread offended anyone, I'm sorry, but it's was your choice not to read it. No one forced anyone to read it, that is your way of exercising your Freedom of Choice - while we were just exercising our Freedom of Speech!

BJE

Personally I feel that this Forum has absolutely nothing to be gained by these discussions. Bob placed a link to vote yes or no about the pledge. I saw no harm in that, however the discussion began to change to a debate over freedom of speach, do you believe in god, etc........... I know there was more to it than that but I am keeping it simple. There are only a few of us that can remove posts.

1. The Originator
2. The Webmaster
3. The Saints and Cruise Directors

I think the debate had the potential to upset people over some very dear beliefs. This is not what this Forum is about. If One of the 3 so choose to delete this thread then I personally can live with it. No reason to defend anything. I presume their reason was simply looking out for the good of the forum. If this Forum wants more of an explanation I'm not sure of it's motive or intent.

Bob,

I agree Freedom Of Religion is important.The thread did nothing to compromise that Freedom, in my opinion.What is also important is Freedom of Speech. I was under the impression that we were afforded that within some very wide margins in this venue. The unexplained removal does threaten that concept.

As stated elsewhere we are all adults here there was a discussion that was going on between individuals who were doing so in a courteous manner.

Yes, there was a differnce of opinion. Yes, this is a collectors forum. Yes, this is the part of that forum that is supposed to utilized for topics that are not directly connected to the main thrust of this forum.

I think that if someone with the power to do this should also have the fortitude to explain what we are going to be allowed to discuss here.

There have been cases in the past where topics have been erased due to their negative impact on the dealers or to Harbour Lights itself. this was done and explained as to why it was done.

I don't nesacarrily agree with the previous cases, but at least an explanation was offered. I also don't agree that the thread should have been removed.

I enjoy reading and responding to various topics. It's one of the things I like about these Forums.

Dennis

The person who deleted the thread did so to stop the dicussions, but in the long run only made matters worse by now having us dicuss the intrusion on our Freedom of Speech. Before we were calmly discussing our views on whether the "Under God" should or should not be removed from the Pledge, now we are calling the person who deleted the thread to come out and explain and to apologize. I don't believe the person(s) who deleted the thread will come out.

Before we all understood that we each had our own beliefs - we were able to look at it from each others point of view, but we didn't feel that our friend's and fellow collectors were necessarily intruding on our Freedoms. Now those of us that did post our point of views, or were reading them, feel that we have been wronged. We have been silenced without explaination or warning! I guess the person who deleted the first thread has two options - delete this thread and all other to follow until we get tired of the chase or decide not to post any more, or let us rant and rave for another couple of days and hope this whole issue blows over soon. Personally I would like to see the third option put into effect - tell us why you deleted the thread and apologize.

BJE

Hmmm... this is very unusual, and troublesome.

I did not delete the thread about the Pledge of Allegiance.

In my guise as either Saint or Forum Moderator, I do not delete threads. I have deleted maybe 3-4 duplicate messages, but never an original. Perhaps an occasional minor policing action to fix some HTML, but not deletion. There is only one instance where I've asked folks in the FSB to take their conversation elsewhere - and that was a while ago.

If you deleted the thread I ask that you send me an e-mail acknowledging such. If it was George I can live with that, but I would like to hear any way.

Censorship is not tolerated in this forum. If you can not live with your own words, don't write them here. If you do not like a topic - stop reading it.

We should not be subject to the tyranny of *opinion* that prevents people from sharing ideas when there are ideas one does not like or agree with.

Tim

I don't think the individual that deleted the post has to explain or appologize. Obviously they were in a possition to do so and I have no doubt that it was done with the opinion that it was in the best interest of the forums. I don't think I have that power as a Saint to delete on a forum I am not the moderator of, but if I do I wouldn't delete a thread like these.

If the origionator felt he created a monster unintentionally,and just wanted his post out of it, so be it. Why put him on the spot and force him to apologize or even explain?

Maybe Tim, being the moderator has a right to know but I don't think putting the individual on the spot solves anything. It happened, we've all expressed our dissappointment and hopefully it wont happen again. So pass out the Krispy Kremes and let move on!!

Dale

Tim,

I would have been surprised if it had been you, at least not doing it without explaining why.

I agree wholeheartedly with the thoughts you expressed in your last post.

I did not start this thread to start trouble, but to more fully understand the parameters that we are allowed to operate under in this setting.

I thought basically if we had a subject that was not overly crude and wasa being discussed in an amiable (for the most part) manner it was fair game, especially in the Left Field area of the Forums.

I agree that this topic is more sensitive than others, but it was not brought up in an area specifically for discussion of New Models, or Lighthouse Preservation, etc.

Dennis

>> So pass out the Krispy Kremes and let move on!!<<

Sorry Rezmandale - my attitude is not so blithe. As moderator I cannot accept a person simply putting a gag on other people's opinions based on their personal whim. People who take the time to share their thoughts do so in a belief that they will not be altered or deleted. Where do we draw the line? Well I'm trying to make that clear.

If a person regrets his message and it is the first in a topic then that person can edit and erase the words in it.

Tim

Tim I hope you keep that information in your confidence. Everybody certainly has what you want to call "Freedom of Speech". You also have a brain to help you decide an appropriate arena to discuss such topics in. I for one dont want to see these kind of topics in the Forum. If they had been here I am sure Harbour Lights would have cut their link to this web site long ago.

Abortion Rights
Death Penalty
Gay Rights
Christians versus all the Other Religions
Democrats versus Republicans

Personally I come to these Forums to escape this CRAP!

If you feel these kind of topics need to be discussed on these Forums well good for you! Exercise your "Freedom of Speech" till your heart's content! I however see them as counter productive and less than friendly topics for a Lighthouse Forum.

Thank you Tim. Honestly, I usually do not agree with your views, but as an individual I give each and every one of your posts the respect they deserve - I read them and then either comment on them or ignore them. If I were in a position that I could deleted them, I still wouldn't, no matter how much I disliked them. That is your right as an individual and an American to state your views and to be heard. Whether I agree with those views or not, still doesn't change the fact that they are your views. To be given the Freedom of Speech you must also allow others the Freedom of Speech.

On this topic however, I agree with you completely. I thank you for your stand in our defense. Thank you also for trying to clear up this issue. I know that some like RezmanDale would like to be done with this conversation, but there are others that would like to see this issue explained and will only allow it to clear up once they have been told the TRUTH. Thank you, I hope you are able to get to the truth of the matter.

BonnieJean

Can't see what the big deal, or mystery, is here. George started the original thread and then must have deleted it. He probably thought it wasn't worth the controversy. Perhaps if he'd just mentioned the link to the site without commenting on how a person should vote....but then with this crowd there no doubt would have been opinions expressed anyway.

The good Lord giveth and the good Lord taketh away.

Here's what the heading for this particular Forum says-

The Fog Signal Building
(Or Right Field) Chew the fat, Debate or just sound Off!

I may be defining those terms differently, but that should be OK here in this particular Forum.

Anyway, my main beef is that it's fine for someone to erase their thoughts and words with no explanation, but it should not be OK for someone to do that to my thoughts and words without one of two things

1. My permission

2. An explanation.

I started this particular thread for one purpose- finding out what happened to a thread I had contributed to along with other members of this Forum. I apologize to any who find the original subject matter troubling or offensive, that of course was no one's intent.

The options one has when that happens is to voice one's opinion or move on to the next topic.

I do not apologize for starting or continuing with this topic. It is important to understand what the parameters of this Forum are.

Should we be able at will just because we started a topic to erase everyone else's posts on that topic.

For example if I started a topic on collecting items related to Sandy Hook and someone mentioned that they thought GLOW's were dragging Harbour Lights down would it be right for me to erase that thread simply because I did not agree with that person's thoughts ?

If that's not right erasing another thread because some did not agree with the original poster's thoughts is wrong also.

Of course this is just my opinion.

Dennis

Very well said Dennis - I second your Post!

BJE

For what it's worth, and my better half usually has something to say about my opinions, I was looking forward to commenting on the "missing post" but did not have time when it first came out. I wanted to think about what I wanted to say before I said it and maybe ruffled some feathers. I come back after 2 days in Jacksonville, FL where I was at my 35th reunion of my Viet Nam Cruise and it's not there>.

While I'm a firm believer in leaving the wording in the Pledge, I don't condone messing with our freedom of speech or in this case any of our freedoms. Shame on whoever did this and does not come forward with an explanation!

Rich

Rich,

I disagree with you about the Pledge question, but I want to thank you for two things.

Your support in this question and for taking that Cruise 35 years ago.

I tried to join the Army and the Air Force but failed the physical, wasn't quite crazy enough for the Marines (no offense intended) and could not quite fathom being on a ship in the middle of the ocean for months at a time.

Thanks also to the others on this list that have done their duty for a short or along time in what ever capacity you served.

Dennis

Well it's pretty clear by now that the Saints didn't remove the post. Perhaps instead of judging the person and their motives of why the post was removed (which seems pretty clear to many of us), energies are better spent opening a new thread debating the pledge of allegiance. Suggestion, name the thread appropriatly so no innocent passer bys walk into the crossfire. If you guys don't get an appology should the Forums purchase you each a box of Kleenex?

imho

Well said Sean,

The witch hunt that is brewing here on this thread is troubling. I serves no real purpose and can only cause ill feelings. This is a freidly place, I hope it stays that way. Why not just start a new thread and move on.

Dale

Well, I have been conspicuous by my absence, but have been gone for a few days. WOW, did the kettle seem to boil over here. A very lengthy thread devoted to a missing thread!!!! I'm impressed. Starting a new thread on the same subject would seem to be anybody's perogative.

To quote Sean: "Well I have the power but I won't confirm or deny. If the person that deleted (presuming it was deleted) the thread doesn't wish to have to defend their decision you detectives will have to figure it out without me." I may or may not have been contacted about
how/who/why the thread disappeared, but at this juncture would not reveal it if I was. Ahhh...the mysteries of Life.....

Well, George if there's one thing your signature does well it is blow smoke.

Seems you do it also.

I do not believe this was a witch hunt. It was at first a simple request for an answer to a simple question. Had it been dealt with in that manner it would have been over and done with.

I still feel it is wrong for anyone to erase others thoughts without a care or without an explanation.

I did not think that is how things worked here. I thought we all respected each others thoughts and opinions and treated them in a fair manner.

I do not think the manner in which this was done is in that vein. I have the same power as George (who coyly won't admit it) or anyone else who starts a thread to remove everything that has been written on this particular subject.

I however don't operate in that manner. I thank all who have contributed to this discussion- on both sides. Contrary to what you might believe I do enjoy a good difference of opinion now and again. it's good for the soul to see things from another's popint of view- you don't have to agree but you should respect it.

That is one of the major tenets that this Country is based on.

I will now make somer people happy and not respond to any more posts in this thread.

I leave others to their own decisions.

Dennis

Sean, (and others, but a lot to your post)

A new thread sounds like a simple answer. Unfortunately, since the first one was deleted, what chance does the second one have. Whoever deleted the first one is still here and by choice is still unknown. (Although if it was George, I don't think anyone would care if he deleted his own post.)

As far as what is forumworthy to post. I enjoy getting to know more about the folks in here. Every now and then, that happens with a serious issue. Can people disagree? Sure. I have disagreed with most of your posts in this thread, but I wouldn't erase them even if I did have the power to. Silencing those with dissenting views is a dangerous concept. Knocking out topics that seem too controversial isn't very far behind. As long as everyone is being civil, what's the harm? If someone isn't being civil, that doesn't require removing the entire thread.

Mostly, if the moderator of this section of the forums (the FSB) doesn't have a problem with the post, why should someone else remove it without his knowledge. Isn't it his job to police the FSB? (I think he does a fine job of it by the way.) Just because the power is there, doesn't mean it needs to be used. Even though the deleter doesn't have to make himself known, it's the right thing to do. This forum operates on openness and honesty. The minute those things leave, the forums are worth less than a poorly repaired glow.

Of course what do I know, I'm just one of the new guys.

By the way, the next time any of you type up an encyclopedia length post that should come in several volumes, think how much it would tick you off when the thread gets dumped with no explanation after your 30 minutes of typing. Also, has anyone else noticed almost 40 replies to this thread. How ironic that the previous thread is entitled "dwindling interest".

Come on Dennis, I thought you would at least take a shot at me about the Kleenex joke!

Lou,

You have not read this thread thoroughly, nor have you read the content of Sean's post. The only people outside of the original poster who can erase or delete a thread are that forum's moderator or one of the saints. The saints (one of them being this forums moderator) have indicated they did not delete the thread, which Sean noted. This leaves the originator of the thread.

This warning appears when you go to edit the first post in any thread: "Note: deleting this post will result in the deletion of the entire topic, since this post is the first post in the topic." You can edit your content by simply deleting the text of the post (not the post itself), leaving a blank message area. Some choose to replace the text with a simple "." or other character.

I think the answer to Dennis' original question has been given: the moderators of the forums did not trample on anyone's rights to have a civil discussion, even if they did not agree with the content. Take Sean's suggestion and start a new thread to discuss the Pledge and what wording should be included. Identify it appropriately, keep the discussion civil, and have a good debate.

IMNSHO,

Dave

Apparently I'm not the only one who hasn't read the thread thoroughly. (And I did read Sean's post more than once)

First of all, are all the saints accounted for and is their involvement or lack thereof clear? If so, for the originator of the post to say he's not telling would be pointless. We could get there by the process of elimination. Either way, no one has had the intestinal fortitude to stand up and say, "It was me, and this is why."

If it was the originator, no problem. He started it; he can end it. I just didn't think we had arrived at that as a definite conclusion yet.

>>>>>SIGH<<<<<

This is what happens during the lull between new releases.

Mr. Younger, we need that Virginia sculpture with the dual lights in the mail NOW. We're eating our young in here!

DENNIS: Short & Sweet

Let me state that I deleted MY originating post (which also deleted all subsequent reply posts to this thread). I have that right, and feel no guilt or obligation to provide any reason(s) or apology for such action. Many may feel that I should have come forward sooner, but based upon the nature and tone of the posts in this thread I saw no useful purpose except to provide a target. Keep the following comments/observations in mind:

THE Forum “Delete” box does not have any statement to the effect that reasons or apologies are required to utilize the delete function. While some may feel it is a moral obligation to provide such reasons/apology, nowhere is it required.

Should you and/or the membership feel that deleting an originating post should not delete all subsequent posts, please request that the software be changed to accommodate such.

As best as memory serves me, the content of the deleted posts were all civil. Your recent post aimed directly at me crossed that line, IMHO.

SMOKE THAT !



Knowing that the content of this post will make me a pariah for the future, let me just say it has been fun and BYE.

George,

THANK YOU for stepping up. It was your thread, and without a doubt you had the right to delete it.

I do have one question though. If you started the thread and thought all the posts were civil, why did you want it removed?

I know you don't have to answer or anything, but you've really peaked my curiosity.

Either way, thanks for clearing the whole thing up.

Thank you George for the truth! I'm sure that some of us are a bit upset that the thread was started and deleted as quickly as it was, but like the thread I'm sure we can all take in account that we each have our own opinions and that we can quickly get over this issue. I'm sure that this Collector Forum was created with the sole purpose that lighthouse lovers of all religious choice, ethnic groups, nationalities, and locations could have a place to come together to chat and exchange thoughts, experiences, and information. (I hope that I am not wrong about that.)

However, you did start a topic that you should have known would start a heated conversation - as they always say - the two subjects that should never be dicussed between friends is politics and religion. I guess the thread was getting a bit more out of hand than you intended and that is why you deleted it. It was your right to delete it since you did start it. But all we ever asked for was a bit of explaination as to why the thread was deleted. Thank you for coming forward to notify us that you deleted the thread. I see no reason though why we all can't still be friends and why you have to stop visiting this forum. This whole thread and the previous one just proves that we are each individuals with our own personalities and beliefs - I don't disrespect any of you for your opinions and I hope to keep chatting with each and everyone of you - including you George.

Thank you for telling us the truth!

BonnieJean

George, thank you for letting us know who deleted the post, not that I needed to know who or why! It was your right and you did what you thought was right.

We now need someone to step forward and delete this topic so that we can get on to the business of lighthouses and what's we may expect in 2003!

Bert

Somewhere in the last week or so, George, you passed the 1,000 post mark. Congratulations.

I for one, hope you continue to be a part of these Forums. Your comments and participation -- especially in the games area -- have been much appreciated.

Your original post with the link to the USA Today poll was certainly harmless. But it turned out that people had stronger opinions on both sides of the question than I had imagined.

Hang in there, George.

George, I for one hope that you reconsider quiting the Forums. Although I agreed with you standing 100% and the fact you have the right to delete the post, I felt you should have let others know right from the start that you were going to delete it. It is your choice to give or not give an explanation.

Rich

I'm going back on my earlier statement for only one purpose.

George I apologize if you were offended by my remark.

It was meant as a play on words connected to your signature. i was trying to make a small joke, but I realize that it was not taken that way.

I should have put one of those smile faces on it so that it would have been understood as such.

I did not intend it to be uncivil, but in retrospect I can fully understand how it could be taken that way, particularly in light of previous posts.

I was responding to your previous post. I do intend to ask if it is possible to change the software program so that no one except a Saint or the Administrator of the Forums can remove others posts.

I still feel that is not proper, regardless if the person started the Thread or not.

I accept that my last post was not proper. I should have made my intentions clearer.

I do not consider you a pariah. As I said previously, I enjoy discussions where not everyone agrees with each other.

Please reconsider your decision not to participate in the forums. You have made many important contributions in them.

I do hope you read this, but I am sending you this message directly as you sent yours to me.

Again, I hope you accept my apology for not making my intent clear in my last post to you. Truly, no offense was intended.

Dennis

George I certainly hope you change your mind. This is the exact thing I didn't want to happen. Please reconsider! I will miss all those darn annoying animated GIFs. Really, please don't leave! This whole issue was blown out of proportion. Freedom of Speech, sheesh! It was the first darn thread I can remember being deleted in some time. I hope we can all practice a little tolerance. It's ok to disagree but I still dont understand this search. I certainly dont feel better knowing who removed the posts! The sun will rise in the morning, the birds will sing, and no more animated GIFs!

imho

Don`t leave George, we need people from NC on here.

Please stay George. I have my postcards for PC 15, or whatever number it is, and we need you to do the fine job you do setting it up!!!!

I don't think George should leave either, but I agree with Sean, that who deleted the post was not the problem, and I agree with Dennis that it was wrong to delete the post after others had responded to it. I don't think that the person who creates a post "owns it", or has the rights to delete the entire thread because of a software glitch. We actually went through this same issue with the last software update and John turned off the delete button, which I urge him to do again. I think anyone has the right to edit their own words, but to delete other's thoughts, for whatever reason, appears a bit harsh. This general practice could bring us back to the kid on the ballfield that doesn't like the way the game is going and takes his ball and goes home.
Jim
Johnson

George please don't go. You have done a lot for this collector's forum. Aren't you going to restart the Name the Flame Game before too long?

T&J, I'm still here, but have no plans on restarting the NTFG at least until after the 1st of the year.

Glad you're stillhere George! I was hoping that you'd stick around and keep us all on our toes. I enjoy your posts and especially that smoke belching dragon of yours. Maybe you can tell us how you made that work. I think you have one of the finast signatures on the forums.

Bert

Well here is my 2 cents.

I'm glad you aren't leaving the forums George! I have read your posts and enjoyed them.

With regard to this thread it has been very distrubing. Certainly a lesson in the "Freedom of Speech."
Not to offend anyone, but could we close (not delete) it, I think we have "beat this dead horse" enough!

I've closed this thread.