After reading the Disney message in the Wishlist forum, I had this dream...

A windy day at the the Crisp Point giftshop on the shore of Lake Superior:

[Visitor] Do you have a model of your endangered lighthouse we can take home as a souvenir?

[Volunteer (who looks like Jiminy Cricket)] No, we wish we did. But we do have this replica of the Statue of Liberty for $125.

[Visitor] But, but thats in New York and has hundreds of visitors everyday.

[Volunteer] And look at the beautiful handiwork detailing on the base of the foundation.

[Visitor] It's very nice. Someday maybe our lighthouse will have a foundation before it falls into the water.

A loud erosion noise wakes me up just as I was thinking 'Wouldn't it have been nice if the Turn of the Century piece, had been a 100 year old lighthouse on the Endangered list - with profits going toward its rescue?'

Still goofy after all these years,
__
/im (what they really want is the SoL GLOW )
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 10-25-99).]

Did someone say Disney?
Here is a sneak preview.
Disney Enlightening The World



"TheLightkeeper"

Since there is such a great need to help with the lighthouses that are on the endangered list, maybe it might be a good idea to subsitute one of those for a re-make, or another "glow" or one of the non-light boats.

Jake Toering

I'm sorry if this does not belong here but the topic just caught me.

There was a time when the word "Disney" was written; read or spoken it had a special meaning. It (Disney) was understood to be all about honesty, morality & integrity. It was everything good & decent about this country. Now I know that things change, but I hope that what "Disney" now stands for is not as true (about this country) as in days past !!

"Keeper to Deep Space Vehicle Beaver-1"

"Come in DSV Beaver-1"

"Return to nominal parameters.
Do not switch off computer guidance system.
Repeat do not ... "

"...lakes and streams, yadda, yadda, yadda, to make a buck. Lets sell our youth on the internet for a cheap get rich buck, yadda, yadda,..."

"He's breaking up sir, he's out of range"

Sean,

I couldnt let this thread go on without me replying.

It sounds as if you are saying that Disney embodies all the troubles of our materialistic world!

I would hope that when you thought of Disney, you would think of quality family entertainment. A company does have to make money to surive and shouldnt be faulted for competing successfully in the corporate landscape.

That's what Disney means to me (in addition to a paycheck)


Tim

Good family entertainment and Disney are no longer synonymous in my book. After a recent visit with my family to Orlando, I was appauled by the open acts of lesbianism seen by my 8 and 10 year old children while waiting in line for rides. Disney promoting Gay Day was digusting. If a person wants to choose that life style, that's one thing. To have a company that advertizes itself as a family oriented entertainment center promoting homosexuality in the presence of little children is an abomination. It was the most dispicable thing I have ever seen. I will never vist another Disney Park as long as I live.

Disney enlightening the world! Walt would never stand for this.

Dale, in defense of Disney, they do not promote the "gay day". I know people who work at Disney and they are no more happy about it than you are. It is something that the gay community organizes and I think they go out of their way to make their choices obvious. Disney cannot legally prohibit them from arranging, stop people from entering the park, or monitor their behavior. They have tried to stop it and could not.

I don't know when it is specifically, some time in April/May maybe, but I suggest that before and trips are planned, a call could be made to find out what day has been chosen.

My brother took his family there this year without realizing what day it fell on. He said never again on that day. He has season passes and this was quite a shock to him. Most of the Disney employees seemed to be quite ill at ease with the whole thing.

Joanne

Watch out, buster. You're threatening the integrity of the walls of the fog signal building.

More wars have been started by heterosexual religious-types who want everyone to fit into their little cookie-cutter world than were ever started by gays or lesbians. In fact, we are often the targets of this hatred. But, for some reason that makes about as much sense as Pat Buchanan running the White House, that's still acceptable to nearly half of the people in this country. How sad.

Do you realize that, anytime I walk down the street, I have to watch my back, making sure that I'm not about to be knocked unconscious by some thug who's been taught (undoubtedly by his parents and his church) that gays are intrinsically evil? Any idea what that's like? It sucks.

For the record, Disney has no connection to, and does not endorse, gay day at any of its theme parks. At the same time, the company recognizes the dignity of all people, and thus refuses to turn people away just because of who they are. And park employees *do* have every right to approach people who are making too much of a spectacle of themselves or disrupting others.

You may not believe it, but of all the hundreds of gays and lesbians I've had the pleasure of meeting over the years, NOT ONE chose their sexual orientation. Not one. Personally, I would never choose something that would put my life into such potential danger 24 hours a day. Tell ya what: you and I can exchange orientations. You try to change mine and I'll try to change yours. We'll both die of old age before we succeed.

And by the way, Walt Disney...God bless him...would most definitely have supported the gay and lesbian community, according to his nephew, Roy, Jr.. Heck, 40% of the employees at their theme parks are gay, by Michael Eisner's own admission.

Finally, I, too, have visited Walt Disney World...and some of the stuff I saw heterosexual couples doing was not suitable for children, either. And y'know what? I really do agree with you on your main point: Adults should keep the steamy stuff in the hotel room (assuming they're tourists) where it belongs...gay or straight. Holding hands, hugging (not pawing or mauling), or quick, affectionate kisses...no problem. That's a perfect role model for kids, and something I believe they don't see enough.

All things considered, Disney has remained quite faithful to Walt's vision, and they've done it during several decades of remarkable human turbulence and change. I don't see any studio turning out as much "good old fashioned entertainment" as they do. (By the way, Toy Story II is getting rave reviews with test audiences).

But hey...how 'bout them lighthouses??

[This message has been edited by Bill Harnsberger (edited 10-26-99).]

Did not mean to offend you Bill, I hope that I did not. Everyone has the right to choose how to live and I make no judgements, but I do not think that any couple regardless of who it is, should act "R" rated in public, especially in front of children.

Joanne

I think the point is that it is not a choice. It just is. Let's all remember that God loves us all. Black, white, straight, gay, chinese, indian, serbian, and even narrow minded religious protestors that carry signs that say "Matt in Hell" or "God Hates Fags" I don't think anyone's lifestyle should be critized or condemned, or for children to be told that it is evil or sinful. It's just different, and many people fear things or people that they don't understand or that are different from them.

[This message has been edited by orv (edited 10-26-99).]

Actually, Joanne, your post slipped in before mine, which was in response to Dale. And Dale, I mean no disrespect to you. At the same time, your post gives the impression that the G&l community as a whole is abominable. If that's your opinion, so be it. Reality says otherwise.

Unfortunately, there will always be an element of society that functions outside of the "norm." Call 'em what you will...troublemakers, flamboyants, pot-stirrers, attention-grabbers, activists, bullies, etc. etc. These people represent and exist in every gender, race, sexual orientation, religion, social structure and age...they're in every minority and majority and crack and crevice around the globe. And, like it or not, they're often the ones most responsible for progress and innovation. But, damn, they can be very annoying.

I have no doubt that Gay Day at Disney has its share of attendees who want to make a statement and shock others. I don't believe it's the right place to do that. At the same time, I bet that the vast majority of people who attend Gay Day 'behave' themselves. As so often happens, it's the few who ruin it for the many.

Disney advertises heavily to attract adults to its theme parks, with or without kids. So clearly the place isn't designed only for the little ones. Gay Day is set aside so the g&l community can spend one day---just one---without fear of reprisals or consternation (the old 'strength in numbers' rule). Maybe there should be a Lighthouse Wackos' Day there---now THAT would be trouble.

As for "promoting" homosexuality. Unfortunately, "promotion" gets confused with "education." Again, if you're straight, you're straight---ain't nothin' gonna change you. And vice versa. Whether you're 5 or 105. The objective is not to flick anybody's switches or recruit them to the other team, but to teach them that they're valued, loved, and important members of society who's feelings and inherent attributes are appreciated and accepted.

On the other hand, recruiting children to be Harbour Lights collectors should commence at the earliest possible age. Gotta get those older pieces retired. Go ahead, get little Johnny a Brant Point today.

Bill;

I'm sorry if I offended you. My point was directed at Disney not the Gay community. In American people have the right to choose what ever they wish to become. I would not take lightly, however the biblical stance on homosexuality. That does not mean that God doesn't love the homosexual. He does. As should all Christians. I had a brother who was gay and died of AIDS. I know the difficult life he chose. I just wish they gay community would be more careful where they push their beliefs. Your probably right 90% of those there were not being lewd. It's a shame that a redical few make ssuch an impact for the rest of you.

I also have a relative working for Disney and she says they activly recruit homosexuals and encourage this lifestyle openly. I am not a gay basher and I believe it is just as abominable that a person walking around the streets of this country has too look over their shoulder and fear for their live just because they have choosen to be gay. I just happen to believe that God disapproves of Homosexuality. But He Loves the Homosexual.

I have never seen streight couples doing the things I saw lesbian couples doing at Disneyworld. In every case it was lesbians.

But what does this have to do with lighthouses. I agree with you Bill. I probably would not be able to change your way of life and I know you would not be able to change mine.

What started this all was the coment Disney enlightening the world. I'm sorry but I haven't seen a great deal frm Disney that is very enlightening lately.

Please don't streotype me with the Pat Bucanans of the world either. I dont know Pat personally, but there seem to be a great deal of hatred coming from that man.

Bill maybe we could sit down some day and discuss this together. I believe we will find we have more in common than we thought, like our love of lighthouses.

If you could be seen in public with a conservative Christian minister that is.

Dale

Quote

"I just wish the gay community would be more careful where they push their beliefs."

Try this "I just wish the religious community would be more careful where they push their beliefs."

You know, I felt the same way the other day, when a Jehovah's witness came in my business handing out the Watchtower and wanting to talk about the end of the world.

Nothing personal Dale, I think it all comes from a personal point of view. It has been my experience that most members of organized religions (not Christians, to be a Christian means to be Christ like and I don't think this is his attitude) condemn gays and openly state that they are wrong.

I agree with you Orv. There are a great number of organizations that call themselves Christian and act anything but Christlike in the attitudes towards people who are different. Not all organized churches or christian organizations are that way but too many of them are. I am just as appauled by that attitute as I was about seing the lewd behavior by those at Disney world.

God is Love. Condeming people does not show God's love. In fact the Bible says that Jesus is the one who is to judge, not us. God warns us not to judge lest we be judged also.

On the other hand one can not stand by and watch lesbians with their hands down the fronts of their partners pants in front of little children and ignore it as something different. There are not two ways about it it was wrong. It would be just as wrong if my wife and I did it. Somewhere you have to draw the line. Unfortunately that line is different for everyone.

I believe Disney condones this type of activity. Movies that they make under different company names push the envelop of morality. I admit I can be somewhat judgmental in this area. Especially since homosexuality cost my brother his life.

I don't condem Bill for being gay. In fact I would love to meet him someday. I know many gay people because of my brothers circle of friends. Theey are decent people that don't flaunt their homosexuality. I respect them for that.

To everyone on this thread:

I really enjoy the forums and even like some of the arguing back and forth, but what is going on in this thread is just not enjoyable at all. I think this sort of argument is in bad taste for what these forums represent and I do not believe that this is the place to argue over or discuss sexuality. I do hope that this thread closes before it becomes more offensive to everyone. Let's keep these Forum's a place for fun and sharing information.

Thank you
"TheLightkeeper"---Mike


"TheLightkeeper"

Thank you Mike - I agree with you. And although I'm tempted to, I'm not going to close the thread as long as language doesn't become abusive and folks aren't openly taking swipes at one another. Open civil discourse amongst adults is a keystone to our free society even when its boring or about stuff not everyone wants to hear.

That being said, I strongly suggest this particular discussion about the proclivities of Disney visitors, employees, and business practices be taken somewhere else.

Allow me a chance to return this thread to its intent by doing my job of being curmudgeonly. :-)

Thus far we've only had two responses to my little vignette that are remotely on topic. (I don't have a problem with that - the rambling nature of the forums is generally a good thing.) For me the fact that HL chose to present us with a $125 SoL model as their 'Turn of the Century' piece is a far more interesting topic. Sure its a nice piece, very attractive, mom, apple pie, etc. etc.

But whatever HL does is gonna be attractive. I just think they coulda drawn a bit more on their imagination and come up with a more deserving choice. Just because they *can* do it nicely doesn't mean they should. (Goodness knows we got more than our share of warm fuzzies here - somebody has gotta tweek 'em once in a while when they get a half baked idea even if it is well executed )

I think there are two main reasons why HL chose SoL as their TotC piece. First and foremost - they figure they will sell a bunch of 'em and make a bunch of money. Second, they thought something else wouldn't sell as well and make 'em a bunch of money. OK fine. For them. For me there are more deserving choices. There are and will continue to be thousands of SoL replicas.

I try not to repeat myself (too much ;->) but here I'll draw upon my own remarks from an earlier thread...



Whew,
__
/im


<--Mr. Fun Mr. Yuk-->
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 10-26-99).]

Mike;
I certainaly appreciate your opinion but must disagree that this is in poor taste. The fog signal building thread is a place to sound off. No one has used foul language, called anyone a derogatory name or intenionally offended anyone. It would be a shame if sensorship in these forums were to occur. I would not think of makeing statements like thesse in the general forum, tips sheet, marketplace, rumour mill or any other thread but this one. My understanding is that this is the place to sound off. Bill has made some very enlightening points about his situation that all streight people, especially those expousing to be Christian, need to hear. I have enjoyed the debate and have made every effort to remain restrained in my posts. I will be the first to admit we have strayed far from the Lighthouse basis of these forums but this is not the first to do so. Also note that both Bill and I have mention this common ground in our posts.

How do you overcome sterotypes if you don't first come toghther on a common ground. For Bill and I our common ground is our love for lighthouses and especially Harbour Lights and these forums. Who knows, this debate may end up resulting in a very close friendship developing where we can converse about anything unabated. Granted there is probably a better forum through personal e-mail, letters and phone converstations but for those who are not interested in this debate, there are many,many other threads that you can read and respond to. I for one appreciate everyones input. Orv has made some very insightful inputs as has This world will never be able to overcome fears of the differences we all have if we dont talk about them.

To JTimothy A;
We sure did get off the origional topic of this thread and I appologize for that. And thank you for not closing the thread. But people , please do not be afraid to speak up on touchy issues. It can only help us be better in the long run.

Your sentiments of those stately sentinals Is very well stated. Your are an artist with words. Right on!
Dale

[This message has been edited by DALE LAWRENCE (edited 10-26-99).]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

One day the breath will leave your bodies and you will no longer see through a glass darkly. What will you look apon? Think about it. Money and power will not be yours. Who will help you then?

Moby

We could ask Rodney King to stop by and gives us his motivational "Can't we all just get along?" speech.

I have no interest in other collectors ways of life, to each their own. I feel we are all here because of our mutual interests in lighthouses, and especially Harbour Lights.

Tim is right..1st Amendment rights are respected at the CF as long as no one takes a cheap shot at another. I don't recall that ever happening here in the past nor would I expect it to happen in the future.

Bob

Yaaaaawn. Good morning.

Yeah, it's my understanding that the fog signal building is more for sounding off about Harbour Lights. I think the majority of the above thread should be continued in the apartment downstairs: the "Nothing to do with Anything" thread.

I think what we're seeing is the incredible power of the Internet to bring people together instantly from all over. Can you imagine...in the "old days" all we'd have would be the editorials in the local newspaper to turn to? I hope no one takes this technology for granted, because, when you sit back and really think about it, the Internet is weaving together worldwide communities and viewpoints that never would have existed before. And it's so easy, that's what gets me. Anyway. . .

Personally, I think the Statue of Liberty is the perfect turn-of-the-century piece for Harbour Lights and its collectors, who are 99% red, white, and blue American. They've already sculpted all the really famous lighthouses here, so SOL makes sense. It's different, it's patriotic, it's a real lighthouse, it'll make the company lots of money, and it'll probably generate many new wackos. Everybody wins. I also like what the SOL stands for...a welcoming of people from all over the world, particularly those who are escaping oppressive regimes.

It's just a great big warm 'n fuzzy that will have special significance in the HL line as time goes on.

No luck on Rodney King, Bob, but here's the next best thing....

"Can't we all just buy Harbour Lights"
-Rodney Watson 1999

Well said Moby and Rod. By the way I just bought a new 2000 calander and one of the lighthouse pictures was by Rod Watson. Is that our Rod Watson of forum fame?
Dale

Dale,
If it was a "Time Factory" produced calendar, with a shot of Pemaquid Point in it....it is. I wasn't too happy with their cropping job though, cut off most of the rocks at the bottom. If it was, I'm curious what store you bought it at?

>>They've already sculpted all the really famous lighthouses here, so SOL makes sense. <<

Thats a really good example of a non-sequitur. Thanks for sharing it with us. (g,d&r)

14,376 different companies have already made models of the Statue of Liberty. How many new SoL models besides the HL version will be released during the millenium?

__
/im

Rod;

It was a Time Factory calendar. The picture is nice. Sure would like to see the uncropped version.

How did you get your picture in there? Did you just mail them one of your favorites, or did they contact you?

Almost forgot, my mother-in-law bought it for me at WalMart
Dale

[This message has been edited by DALE LAWRENCE (edited 10-27-99).]

Okay everyone - Take a deep breath -

RANT, RANT, RANT.

Aren't we glad we got that off our chests?

Anyway I have enjoyed reading these comments and now more then ever look forward to meeting everyone at a HL reunion. I MUST put faces to these names and thoughts.

Back to the original topic - At first I thought I would be interested in buying the SOL item. Now I am not so sure. With the thoughts voiced (if that is the right word)here and in other threads about the piece, I am having second thought. I may just wait to see it in person and compare it with other lighthouses I want and make my decision then. I am still going to start saving toward the $125 price as I can always use that money for some other HL item.



------------------
Jim

Dr. Who ?

Jim;

I think your approach is probably the best for this piece. $125 is pretty steep for a souvenir. I intend to wait and see it in person myself. $125 could get me two other lights that I need to fill out my collection. I just can't picture SoL amoung my other lighthouses.

Deep breath, exhaled!

Dale

Excellent observation, Beaver-1. None of the high price models (>$100) have done much on the secondary: Sanibel Island, Hillsborozilla, The Large Brown Doorstop from New Jersey, er, I mean Navesink. One continues to see these at or below retail.

Based on prices I see on e-Bay, for $125 you could probably buy Thomas Point, or renew your Society Membership for 3 years, or even get *all* of the Event Pieces and still have enough money to take the wife out for a fish dinner.

__
/im

JTimothyA,

Hope you're not in it just for the money. If you are, as in life, you're in for a real disappointment.

Mpby

well said Mpby

Its funny how the biggest defining difference between a collectible and giftware can be missed. If you think speculation is not a part of the success matrix for Harbour Lights to remain successful, your going to be dissapointed when they are not in business anymore.

imho,
Sean

Robert Dick,

Not sure why you've targeted me for your homilies. Is it because I think $125 is a steep price for SoL??

On the other hand, if you mean to cast some sort of moral judgement you'll need to a be bit clearer. That might be more appropriate for E-mail - but if its something you believe we all need to hear, then by all means...

If a member thinks discussion about HL prices or market trends isn't an appropriate or interesting part of the hobby, then Caveat Lector, its a regular topic found in many of the forums.
__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 11-01-99).]

Tim,

My remarks have not been directed at you. If you feel that way, please be assured that this is not the case. I do appologize for any discomfort I may have caused.

I deal with materialism in medicine everyday and the two do not mix well in my blood. This fact may carry over into this forum. I really feel that materialism will be what distroys this nation in the end.

Again, I am sorry if I offended.

In the future I will check my emotions at the keyboard. And if you wish to address me as other than Moby, please use Bob.

Bob

Bob,

Since you addressed your message to me, it seemed only reasonable that your remarks were intended for me. I'm not offended - but cannot figure out what was posted that led to your comments.

As far as "materialism" goes - I'm not sure lighthouse model collectors are exempt - after all we acquire material things for the sake of having them. Reasons for this 'having' will vary from collector to collector. Most people seem to be acquisitive - some more so than others. It strikes me as a characteristic many share.

Can one collect lighthouse models and not value these things over people? I think so.

Can we talk about prices and the secondary market as part of the enjoyment of our collecting? I hope so.

Is our hobby contributing to "what distroys this nation in the end"? Not in my opinion.

This is sure a long way from Crisp Point. :-)

__
/im

I'm a bit confused over the various topics discussed at this thread titled "Disney Enlightening the World." So to add to the confusion I would say that $125 is a lot of money for the average LH collector to pay for something that isn't really a LH in my mind. It doesn't matter if you're straight or gay when it comes time to pay! If a lower retail price was assigned to this piece, HL would sell more. I agree with Sean's estimate of sales at 8,500 but I believe Lady Liberty will still be found on dealer's shelves for more than a couple of years.

If you eliminate the "in the know" collectors of HLs, the general public will ask dealers the following questions in 2002: Why are you offering the SoL for sale in with those lighthouses? $125??? Is it made of gold? Does it play any patriotic songs? Is the decimal point on the price tag in the wrong place?

Although it's moot point, if the SoL was retailed at $75, they would probably sell out in 18-24 months.

Bob

Art,

Throwing away all hope for this thread but stated with complete deadpan conviction ...

Since you addressed your message to "Average LH Collectors" and since you've already informed us that for any group, half the group is above average and half is below average, we can only arrive at one of two conclusions: a) you already know you'll have no respondents, or b) checks you receive will come from the statistically aberrant and are thus of questionable negotiability.

Besides, since the quality of the lighthouses in Bob's mind may vary depending on what he eats for lunch, you might only get paid in kind, so don't be surprised if your bank account fills up with wire-frame dollars.

Nonetheless, it may be wise for us to start tracking the Secondary Market in Bob's Mind. Like the Spanish Inquisition, no one who would expect he could disintermediate cyberspace. rofl!

With a certain timeless quality from the Fog Signal Building in Bob's Mind,
 __
e/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 11-02-99).]

Now...well maybe...could be...my mind is a little foggy at this time. "Ground Control to Major Tom..."

Who said the Washington Monument is a lighthouse????

Bob

Your driving down a back road through the woods looking for a lighthouse, the directions you have tell you to get off the highway at the third gravel road on the right ( it will have a flashing light there ) and then you follow it down to the "T" and then go right again until you get to CR 1800 north and then left until you hit Oak road then to turn left again at CR 800 north you take that down to the fork in the road and stay left, keep going all the way to the end of the road and then follow the path to the east until you hit the first black top, when you get to the gas station hang a right go exactly 4 miles to the dead end and then walk the path to the waterfront. But you have just passed the same old pickup for the third time and this time the guy driving it is laughing and pointing as you go by, you begin thinking was I suppose to turn to CR 300 or CR 800, which did I turn on ? , the flashing light was at the second gravel road but I still turned at the third road like the directions said,
Where were we going again ?

A horse walks in to a bar and orders a beer, and the bartender says "HEY, why the long face" ?

Bob
[This message has been edited by Mark Wagner (edited 11-04-99).]

>>Where were we going again ?<<

That would be the Crisp Point gift shop to meet Jiminy Crickett.

Nice thing about these forums - if person "A" gets lost Person "B" will help Person "A" get more lost. Then a lighthouse in the distance would really come in handy.

Enjoying the discussions and laughter.


------------------
Jim

Dr. Who ?

What a long, strange trip it has been...

"No one say life be fair, Grasshopper!"

Hey Bill, I think Bob took a jab at us both at the same time. At least in his mind. However I tend to agree with him on the cost. "Straight or gay when it comes time to pay!" $125 is alot.

Ok, thats 50 - Buffy you may drive a stake thru this thread now