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More GLOW claptrap #77784 05/08/99 03:14 AM
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This thread carries a response to some of the messages in the "Retired GLOWS ... would you like to know" thread up in the General Forum.

I suppose one might say the 1st mold of Cape Hatteras or Assateague was "retired". Or the tan tower Beavertail was "retired". But I don't believe this is terminology HL uses. Its misleading to speak of "retired GLOWS", although I'm aware some dealers have perptuated this terminology.

Do the revised GLOWS of Barnegat or Portland Head have different model numbers in the HL catalog?

Therefore to answer the question: "but what is a retired Glow?" from the point of view of Strawson, the British philosopher of language: This is a category mistake. You can attach the adjective 'retired' to the word 'GLOW', but you've created a nonsense phrase.

Quote:
It appears that the amount of these retired Glows is far less than the current edition run for limited editions. Interesting...


I suggest caution in making statements like this because they can be quite misleading to new collectors.

And its only interesting if you ignore the math. 6300 1st mold Boston Harbor GLOWs is definitely not "far less" an edition size than the 5,500 Boston Harbor LEs. And 6,950 revised 1st mold SEBI GLOWs is 1,450 more than the 5,500 Limited Edition SouthEast Block Island models. But yes there are 1,500 fewer 1st mold runty tower Barnegats than the Barnegat LE.

But in the same spirit of semantic obfuscation I'll join in and say "you can't collect GLOWS, but you sure can acquire alot of 'em". :-)

Fwiw - I think HL did a disservice to collectors by remolding GLOWS. Were the 1st molds selling so poorly? Barnegat may be the exception - that was a QA problem from the get go. I guess this is the price we pay in the age of manufactured rarity.

Rgds,
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/im (a sea breeze at the FSB tonight)
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 05-08-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77785 05/08/99 03:37 AM
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Great comments Tim!!! I especially enjoyed the manufactured rarity, I always marvel at your ability to get to the point!!!!

All that said, I am ready for the Coquille GLOW with the Logs and Beaver that Bob Younger had dreamed of creating!!!



SeAnDiEgO

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77786 05/08/99 04:13 AM
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Dittos, Tim
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Re: More GLOW claptrap #77787 05/08/99 09:24 AM
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"It appears that the amount of these retired Glows is far less than the current edition run for limited editions. Interesting..."

Isn't the current run of limited editions set at 10,000? Isn't a manufactured piece considered to be retired when the manufacturer decides they will stop making that exact model ?

Some folks might consider a comparison of limited editons to open editions is like comparing apples to oranges. Well LE's and OE's are both Harbour Lights just as apples and oranges are both fruits.

I consider Glow editions of HL's as collectibles and not giftware, especially if production of a Glow has been stopped at a total number far less than the current editon run of limited editions. Limited editions will always carry more value in a secondary market and that really makes me feel great that my children will be afforded the opportunity to make money off my collection when I'm on the other side of the grass.

If anyone is a diehard limited edition collector who only collects LE's of HL's, then you are missing out on many beautiful pieces for your collection. Take a trip down to your local dealer, take the heavy rubber band off your limited edition wallet, and purchase a few of those new Glows to dress up your HL display at home.

By the way, you had better contact the publishers of "The Genuine GREENBOOK Guide Devoted Exclusively to HARBOUR LIGHTS, 1998/1999 Premiere Edition" and advise them they are misleading collectors by posting the status of HL 402, HL 403, HL 404, and HL 414 as retired.

FWIW - I thank Harbour Lights for doing such a wonderful job on manufacturing both LE's and OE's. Obviously, they listened to their collectors when they decided to revise four of their open editions. I can't wait to add those to my collection.

Have a great day!

Bob

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77788 05/08/99 09:34 AM
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I think I've been around this bend before. And what I found out then was this. If you like the GLOWs, buy them. If you don't like the GLOWs, don't buy them. If, like me, you're just plain out of space to add anything new to the collection without putting something else in it's box, pick and choose carefully, GLOW or LE or anything else.

Rick

[This message has been edited by RMau (edited 05-08-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77789 05/08/99 12:38 PM
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I suggest Tim that you heed your own words.

>>I suggest caution in making statements like this because they can be quite misleading to new collectors.<<

Neither you, nor Sean, John, Bob or I will decide the answer to this question, but only time will tell. I really feel that it is important that the new collector gets many sides to an issue. It will be the new collectors that will decide the issue since they will be the ones either wanting a original GLOW Barnegat or not.

>>Do the revised GLOWS of Barnegat or Portland Head have different model numbers in the HL catalog? <<

In the case of the Barnegat Glow's the first one is listed as HL414 and the revised Barnegat GLOW is listed as 414R. I don't have a crystal ball to see how they are going to list the revised Portland Head GLOW, but there isn't CH1 and CH2 listed in my catalog. It is just listed as HL102 and the same for Assateague justHL145. The label on the revised Barnegat OE is HL414 as is the retired version of the Barnegat OE. If it weren't retired they would still be making it. I submit that the Beavertail tan tower is a color change and not a mold change, therefore not apples to apples, to quote a famous HL collector.

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Re: More GLOW claptrap #77790 05/08/99 01:28 PM
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Quote:
although I'm aware some dealers have perptuated this terminology.


I wonder where they ever got that terminology, which the dealers are perpetuating?

Quote:
The Tugboat Toledo and the Skipjack Nancy were retired on September 15, both as Regular and as Special Editions. Orders received from dealers as of that date are being filled as Special Editions only. Regular Editions of the remaining three issues of 1997: the Lightship Huron, Motor Yacht Kim, and Sardine Lori are retired effective immediately, according to Kim Andrews. "We will continue to ship the Special Editions of these pieces until the 4,000 limit is reached."


But there I go comparing Ships to Lighthouses and everybody knows that isn't comparing apples to apples, although it is stating the words "retired effective immediately".

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Re: More GLOW claptrap #77791 05/08/99 02:11 PM
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I think Rick makes a very valid point, buy what you like. I will take that one step further and say, just be sure of what you are buying.

I agree with Paul as well. I think time will tell the value of re-moulded GLOWS, or for that matter, GLOWS in general. I know that I have seen more than once, the original GLOW Barnegat selling for around $100.00. I have also recently seen some sitting on dealer shelves at retail, right next to the re-moulded brother. Taking that information into account, there is either one or more of the following taking place: One, there is demand for the original mould, driving up the price. Two, there are uninformed purchasers who do not realize that there is still availability at retail, or three, someone purchasing the the GLOW mistakenly thinking they are getting a good deal on the LE. I am sure there are more factors to consider, but this is a starting point and as previously stated, time will tell.

FWIW, I disagree with the statement that GLOWS are "collectables" While people may collect them, that, in my book anyway, does not make them "collectables". GLOWS are intended as giftware and that is just what they are. I agree that the newer GLOWS are beautiful pieces and I hope they serve their purpose well. I am sure they look good in the curio and that people get a lot of enjoyment from them, but for me, I don't feel as though I am missing out by not adding them to my collection.

I would also like to thank HL for donating some of the money from sales of the GLOWS to the preservation of these lighthouses. My hat is off to you for taking such an active role in lighthouse preservation.

I do have two GLOWS in my collecton. I received the original Barnegat GLOW as a birthday gift, and I bought the Tybee GLOW as a reminder of what hard work, dedication, and effort can do, when people put their time and money toward a common cause. In this case, the restoration of Tybee and the push it received from the members of the Harbour Lights Collectors Society.

GLOWS ain't all bad, they just ain't for me.

-Todd

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77792 05/08/99 03:45 PM
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GLOWs.........
Got all of them so far, going to get all future ones, love 'em as much as the LE's.

My older brother, George, is an auctioneer in NH. I've been to many of his auctions where the bidding is on things that were never intended to be "collectibles" but are heavily sought after by collectors.

I commend Harbour Lights for making the GLOWs and donating some of the proceeds to the preservation of the actual lighthouse. Keep those babies coming, along with the LE's, I'll still be standing in line.

Ron
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Re: More GLOW claptrap #77793 05/08/99 04:57 PM
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Ok somebody splain this to me.

WHY NUMBER THE GLOWS AT ALL?

If it is not important to the value and they will not increase, why number them. Limited Editions should be numbered. There is a valid reason for that. I don't understand the reasoning to number an open edition.

------------------
ORV



[This message has been edited by orv (edited 05-08-99).]


ORV
Re: More GLOW claptrap #77794 05/08/99 05:42 PM
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IMHO. A retired piece is one that has ended a successful production run of a limited number, not one that no longer sells, or was defective. To me that would be more like discarded. This is not at all the definition of retired but just my opinion of what retired should mean. Hey the next thing you know they'll be calling unemployed "temporarily retired". Call it what you want but it won't mean a thing to me. As far as collecting GLOWS you can "collect" anything, it doesn't have to be "limited" to be part of a collection. Some people collect cows, some collect ducks. Ive yet to see a limited edition collection of either. For that matter garbage men collect garbage, so what's wrong with collecting GLOWS? Just to clear up any confusion, my humble collection consists of about 30 LE's and 1 GLOW (gift) of CH.

[This message has been edited by LuvLights2 (edited 05-08-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77795 05/08/99 06:08 PM
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So according to your definition, Chatham, Point Arena, Burrows Island, Wind Point & Round Island are not retired pieces. I really thought they were retired pieces.

You know when I looked up the definition of retire(d) in the dictionary; I find no mention of Open or Limited. The definition closest to the topic probably is, to withdraw from circulation, but then my dictionary is probably retired by now. Perhaps I need to purchase a new open edition dictionary.

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Re: More GLOW claptrap #77796 05/08/99 07:35 PM
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Welcome to "English as a Second Language for HL Collectors 101"

Buy what you like!


Geez Tim, go take some beta-blockers for this GLOW thing already.

One last comment: What are LEs if not "manufactured rarity"?

Have a nice day.

------------------
-Art


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Re: More GLOW claptrap #77797 05/08/99 10:31 PM
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After wading through these messages and the preceding ad hominem I'll offer the following in an attempt to be clearer:

1. Its confusing to equivocate on the meaning of the term 'retired' and I disagree with bending the meaning this term has within the context of collectibles. Presumably one thing that differentiates a limited edition collectible from one that is not is the manufacturer's statement up front on the number of limited edition pieces to be made. And another differentiator is the manufacturer's statement up front that once this edition size is reached no more will ever be produced. When that number is reached such that the item can no longer be obtained from the manufacturer the item is labeled 'retired' and if the manufacturer is true to their word, it will never be made again.

2. With the exception of the skinny tower Barnegat GLOW, and based on numbers from HL, it is not the case that "the amount of these retired Glows is far less than the current edition run for limited editions" when you compare the number of 1st version GLOWs with the same model LE.

3. A secondary market for GLOWS has not developed although as previously noted, the initial edition of the Cape Hatteras GLOW occasionally commands a slight premium.

4. >>Isn't a manufactured piece considered to be retired when the manufacturer decides they will stop making that exact model? <<

Not according to my understanding. When HL did a remold of CH1 they did not announce that HL#102 was retired until all 5,500 pieces were sold out to dealers. When they chose to change the color of the Beavertail tower from tan to grey (no longer >>the exact model<<) they did not say that HL#188 was retired. Variations do not retire - as best as I can determine HL only retires model numbers.

5. Of course, Limited Edition collectibles are indeed manufactured rarities, I can't imagine anyone thinking otherwise.

The constant chime of 'Buy what you like' is kinda like someone offering the advice of 'Do what you want' and suggesting its an ethic. I suppose its appropriate if you have no goals or parameters that bind your collecting activities. And yes I can imagine someone out their saying "my goal is to buy what I like...", but somehow I doubt we'll be spared.

Rgds,
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/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 05-08-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77798 05/09/99 12:04 AM
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For the "wordsmiths" out there ...

I choose to think of retired in the same way that a team's jersey is occasionally "retired." When a player no longer wears it, it is NOT retired (the player is). Only when the team declares the jersey "retired" can you be sure that no one will wear it again.

And Tim, regarding your comments on "Buy what you want", do I read correctly that you do not believe in this as an ethic? Does that mean you buy things you don't want? Just curious ...

Sluggo

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77799 05/09/99 12:35 AM
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I agree with Tim that the term "retired" should only be used when referring to LE's.
For the GLOWS under discussion perhaps 1st version and 2nd version would be more appropriate. As individuals we can choose to "take em or leave em". Believe anyone who decides to start collecting HL's should take the time to learn what's what so that they know what they're purchasing.

Hey Tim, maybe I'll send you my skinny Barnegat for a housewarming gift if nobody buys it on Ebay for $200 -lol!

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77800 05/09/99 02:04 AM
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Ever feel like you're being ignored or does no one have an answer to my question. Thanks


ORV
Re: More GLOW claptrap #77801 05/09/99 10:00 AM
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Hey Orv, ... I agree with you. Why number Glows if they are only considered giftware that some people think will be available forever.

I feel HL numbers Glows to give the buyer, he or she, the feeling they are buying a collectible. Numbering makes each piece unique. It sets it off from the others by that number on the flag.

Numbering also gives HL an opportunity to make adjustments mid stream without having their product sent to the bargain basement at 2 for $10. Past practice has shown OE's becoming LE's, and LE's becoming OE's. It has shown us edition numbering with and without a prefix on OE's. This type of marketing keeps the collector's heading for the dealers hoping to find a rare piece.

Some collectors will never consider a Glow aka OE a collectible. They believe a Glow will never be worth more than you paid for it. I have a similar feeling about a few of the LE's, they may never be worth more than I paid for them. You know what? I don't care if they will or won't be worth more. I bought them because I wanted them.

Glows are not giftware. They are a numbered collectible which in some cases might be made in amounts greater than the current editions of limited editions. Yet in other cases the entire amount manufactured may be less than the current amount made of a particular limited edition.

In conclusion, I would like to present a "giftware vs collectible" scenario:

Potential new collector goes in a store and sees an older LE and a newer OE sitting on the shelf. (i.e. Spectacle Reef and the Key West Glow). He or she has been told that LE's will be worth more than OE's (possibly) in the future. Which piece do you think he or she will purchase to proudly display in his or her home? My bet it would be the Key West Glow. Giftware at its finest? No, it's a numbered collectible.

Does anyone else out there regret throwing away all those metal lunch boxes you had when you were a kid because they made a million of them without numbering them?

Glows = Giftware ............NO!
Glows = Collectible .........YES!

Bob

Hey Orv...sorry if I rambled a bit in replying to your post.

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77802 05/09/99 10:02 AM
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Orv - no one has an answer to why the GLOWs are numbered.

John

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77803 05/09/99 11:17 AM
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My understanding of the collectible market terminology is this:
1-Retired--means thet all the molds of a certain piece are broken and that piece (numbered or not numbered) will never be produced again.
2-Revised--means that a revision has been made to the piece and a new mold is now being used for production, but it is still the same piece only a variation of it.
3-Taken out of production--This means that a certain piece is no longer being produced(for whatever reason the manufacturer has), but the molds are not broken and that particular piece may be brought back into production at some time in the future.
So in a real sense, true retirement of a piece depends on if the molds are destroyed or not. It really has nothing to do with numbering. Numbering is used only for limited edition purposes, but retirement can apply to both limited and unlimited editions.

"the lightkeeper"

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77804 05/09/99 11:48 AM
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I think way too much emphasis is put on future values! I love HL's and I don't care if they are LE's, OE's, Retired, or even if they will ever retire or increase in value. I will never sell my collection so the future value doesn't really matter to me. My heirs can worry about that. I collect what I LIKE! If I like it, I buy it and whether it's Limited or Open doesn't have any bearing on my purchase. I'm not ashamed to say that many GLOW's far surpass the originals in quality and are a much closer representation of the real lighthouse. Go to Mackinaw City, MI with both pieces and see which one looks like the real thing. I don't own the LE and never will will because I feel it simply doesn't do the old structure justice. The GLOW on the other hand, with all it's detail, takes me back to my favorite lighthouse every time I look at it.


Digger

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77805 05/09/99 01:02 PM
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Very well said "digger". I think the same is true of the Montauk GLOW (and I have the LE also). It is much nicer than the LE. And future value is not a consideration for any of my purchases, nor does it matter if it is an LE or a GLOW. Purchase what you like and don't worry about the pieces that you don't like.
Remember you can keep some of the collectors happy all of the time, and you can keep all of the collectors happy some of the time, but you can't keep all of the collectors happy all of the time.


"the lightkeeper"

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77806 05/09/99 03:17 PM
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Quote:
It really has nothing to do with numbering. Numbering is used only for limited edition purposes, but retirement can apply to both limited and unlimited editions.


This brings up another old debate about GLOWs. If GLOWs are really supposed to be Open Editions, then why did Harbour Lights choose to number them and even go as far a give them a series, "a, b, c, d, e....."? GLOWs have always been a huge contradiction to me. Call them what you will. In enough years I think that there will be a secondary market for some of these GLOWs. Like, disapprove, despise or not care about the secondary market, you still have to have it. The fact that Harbour Lights are a collectible makes the secondary market a neccessity. Not every lighthouse will sell on its own merrit. Look what happened to Windpoint and Round Island. If the secondary market weekens you may see more of these retirements in the future unless Harbour Lights reduces production back below 10,000 on some of the least expected winners. I like the Hudson River series, but I wonder how long it will take to sell 10,000 lighthouses introduced in the same year that look very much alike and even look similar to the 98 Reunion Event Piece, Rose Island. I know the locals will do there part. Only time will tell how well these 10,000s will do.

SeAnDiEgO

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77807 05/09/99 05:13 PM
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To GLOW or not to GLOW...
This is the first collectible to which I have been attracted enough to, to call myself a true collector. (Please don't diagram that sentence.)

The final analysis of GLOW or not is a business decision. I'm sure the Youngers love for lighthouses will never be questioned, and least of all by me, for they have truly shown me the light. But, when a decision to produce, retire, discontinue, change edition numbers, revise a model or anything else is made, some sound business sense must be exercised.

IMHO the limited editions should be like the new Hillsboro, 6500, sell out and let the value be retained. Then say in 36 months, make a smaller GLOW which continues to benefit the company, lighthouse restoration and collectors. I think it would make a great lesser priced "collectible" for the younger set. I get the LE and in a couple of years, I get my grandchildren the GLOW to match. Just as the metal lunch boxes are now hot stuff, it isn't the box, but the memories that count.

The value in HL's is the thrill of the chase and the friends and memories we make along the way.

Happy Mother's Day from one old fool.
Suzzi

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77808 05/09/99 05:48 PM
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For those of you would like to read on about the GLOW debate, here is more vital reading from the FSB:

http://www.lighthousekeepers.com/forums/Forum17/HTML/000009.html

continue with:

http://www.lighthousekeepers.com/forums/Forum17/HTML/000016.html

There was also some mention of the value of Harbour Lights not being important in the claptrap thread. There is more discussion on value here:

http://www.lighthousekeepers.com/forums/Forum17/HTML/000021.html

Read on,

-Todd

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77809 05/09/99 05:52 PM
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"Like, disapprove, despise or not care about the secondary market, you still have to have it. The fact that Harbour Lights are a collectible makes the secondary market a neccessity."

I agree with this statement, but would add that the value of the secondary market only affects those collectors who are buying to resell at a future time. For those who are purchasing because they want and like the piece and have no intention of selling it down the road, the secondary market is basically an unimportant issue. The truth of the matter is that the secondary market does not affect the majority of those who purchase a Harbour Light.

"Not every lighthouse will sell on its own merit. Look what happened to Windpoint and Round Island. If the secondary market weekens you may see more of these retirements in the future unless Harbour Lights reduces production back below 10,000 on some of the least expected winners."

I agree.
I live in the Hudson Valley and work with the Hudson-Athens Lighthouse Preservation Society and have quite an interest in Hudson River lighthouses, but I think that it will take a long time to sell 10000 of these lighthouses and would not be surprised to see them retire prematurely a few years down the road. (say about three or four years from now) I would be very surprised if they reach the 10000 mark.

"the lightkeeper"



[This message has been edited by thelgtkpr (edited 05-09-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77810 05/10/99 01:59 AM
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Quote:
the value of the secondary market only affects those collectors who are buying to resell at a future time.


If by 'value' you mean the 'worth' or 'merit' then I disagree wholly. The secondary market is of considerable value to collectors (apparently a dying breed in these parts) who wish to add retired Limited Edition models to their collection. I know quite a few folks who have built collections one piece at a time with several of their pieces coming from the secondary market.

Here's an even more controversial claim: if there was no Harbour Lights Secondary Market this forum wouldn't exist.

Not necessarily a fair question to ask, but hey JC - would you have ever started the HLCIC if there was no HL secondary market? (HLCIC = Harbour Lights Collectors Information Center - John's original HL Web site before it was adopted by Harbour Lights - back then a thriving Secondary Market site). If no HLCIC, then HL-dot-com certainly wouldn't be what it is today, if it existed at all.

The secondary market is the proof of the value of LE's as collectibles. A collectible is something the demand for which outstrips the supply. I believe this is a fundamental definition. As long as GLOWs are Open Edition pieces, as long as there is no limit to the number of them HL will make, these factors reduces the chance that GLOWs will become collectible. Or put differently reduces the chance that their supply will be less then the demand for them. Not to say that a few models may not sell at or for more than their retail price - but the vast majority will not. Of course markets are fickle and times change.

The above definition is implicit in my claim that one can acquire lots of GLOWs but one cannot collect them. Simply by saying GLOWs are collectibles doesn't make them so. It doesn't have anything to do with how they look, or if you like them. When we consistently start to see GLOWs selling above retail on eBay or wherever - then one could say they are a collectible. The chances of this happening are simply governed by supply and demand. With unlimited supply, demand won't be there.

Believe it or not, some folks collect certain things because they believe the value of the things they collect will stand up over time and hopefully grow in value. No doubt HL recognizes this too - when they first started out they musta felt they'd have more luck selling pieces with a fixed edition size. Believe it or not some people actually think it makes the thing *more desirable* because it has these characteristics. Naturally people are inclined toward things they enjoy or appreciate. When the thing they enjoy is also valuable or rare - to some folks this actually enhances their experience. Although I don't know, I'll presume the phenomenology and sociology of collecting are well documented/discussed in the field of of heavy hitters like art work or gems.

Part of the fun is in hunting something elusive - how many folks do you know who had (or still have) those blue books for collecting pennies? It make take years to come across the 1923D (or whatever - I have no sense about pennies ;-> ) but the thrill of the hunt and the satisfaction of filling that missing slot is part of the fun. This doesn't happen with GLOWs. This doesn't make GLOWs bad, or a poor choice for a purchase - but the fact that HL keeps making them with no edition limit in sight simply rules them out from this aspect of collecting.

For some people, part of what makes collecting interesting as a hobby is discussion of things relevant to collecting and the things collected. Witness various publications - numismatic and stamp collecting journals for example. I suspect folks who collect other stuff are just as passionate about their hobby as this thread suggests we are about ours.

Rgds,
__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 05-10-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77811 05/10/99 03:35 AM
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Can't we all just get along?

The question of the merit (or lack of merit) of GLOWs seems to bring the most thought, discussion, disagreement et al to these Forums.

I think this is the third go-round on the topic. That's OK.

Tim asks:
...would you have ever started the HLCIC if there was no HL secondary market? (HLCIC = Harbour Lights Collectors Information Center

The allure of the LIMITED edition lighthouses caught my interest and the chase to find as many as I could -- either at retail or secondary -- was what kept me going. My high interest in Harbour Lights resulted in my AOL Lighthouse Collectibles Board participation and the need to show images was the beginning of the HLCIC.

So "NO" I wouldn't have gotten so involved if the products weren't limited editions.

Again Tim:
The secondary market is the proof of the value of LE's as collectibles. A collectible is something the demand for which outstrips the supply. I believe this is a fundamental definition.

I'd phrase it this way. A secondary market exists when the demand for something outstrips the supply through primary channels. That there is a secondary market for Harbour Lights means, by definition, that (at least for some) lighthouses, the demand outstrips the supply. (Now this gets into another area about 'distribution' among individual collectors, but that was covered in another thread a few months back.)

Again, Tim:
Quote:
A collectible is something the demand for which outstrips the supply.


IMO, A collectible is anything one or more people collect. It doesn't take a secondary market for me to make it a collection.

Balls of string, rubber bands, alumninum foil, kiddie cars, recipes, autographs, diaries, etc. are all collected. The definition of 'collectible' must be viewed from the perspective of the collector.

GLOWs, Spyglass, Keeper & Friends. Yes, you can collect each or all of them. And if you do, then they are 'collectible' no matter what anyone else thinks.

The intrinsic value of each Harbour Lights is nothing.

No gold, no silver, nothing you can break open and find. You can't melt them down and recover a precious metal.

But sentimentally, the value may be high if you were married at that lighthouse, or if you lived nearby as a child. Or if you want to collect them for whatever reason.

If there is a demand beyond the supply, the collector feels good about the wisdom of their collectible. But unless because of a financial situation or a loss of interest in the collection, the collector is unlikely to part with an item that has 'appreciated' in value.

Quote:
For some people, part of what makes collecting interesting as a hobby is discussion of things relevant to collecting and the things collected. Witness various publications - numismatic and stamp collecting journals for example. I suspect folks who collect other stuff are just as passionate about their hobby as this thread suggests we are about ours.


Right on, Tim!

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77812 05/10/99 10:59 AM
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As usual a very nice response John and Tim that response was a lot better for me to follow (less big words to look up) but you didn't respond to the original question John, whether GLOW's can be retired. HL calls it retired when they stop producing a particular model. This is true with the first set of ornaments (retired), AB Open Edition ships (retired except Chesapeake which they are still going to make), the original Barnegat Open Edition (retired). Everybody can come up with their own definition of what is retired, but the fact is they aren't going to produce the original Portland Head GLOW ever again and that means it is retired. I checked two more dictionarys and the meaning was the same in all of them - to withdraw from circulation. I promise this is my last post on this subject as I am retiring from this thread - withdrawing from circulation.

Retired as in Fred's retired

WackoPaul '
Keep the Flame


Onward to The Land of the Midnight Sun!
Re: More GLOW claptrap #77813 05/10/99 11:28 AM
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orv Offline
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Just thought that I'd throw my 2 pennies in here.

Collectible, from Websters as a noun:

: an object that is collected by fanciers; especially : one other than such traditionally collectible items as art, stamps, coins, and antiques

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
or as an adjective:

1 : suitable for being collected

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ORV



[This message has been edited by orv (edited 05-10-99).]


ORV
Re: More GLOW claptrap #77814 05/10/99 11:06 PM
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Joanne Offline
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Being a Newbie, I can only say that I buy what I like and wish to display regardless if it is a LE or OE. I just received my OE's Bolivar and Ponce de Leon. If they were difficult to find I would have paid more than the retail for them. I wouldn't even consider buying the LE's because I think the OE are so much nicer. It's all a matter which, I as a consumer, I place more value on, not what the market places more value on.

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77815 05/10/99 11:54 PM
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Bob M Offline
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Well said...Joanne! All my Glows are displayed in a place of honor. I think they are great!

Bob

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77816 05/12/99 03:33 PM
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If you make it.....................
We will buy.......................

My intersest in lighhouses is to have a least one Harbour Light lighthouse for each state on the Atlantic coast and every one I can get my little hands on in New York State.

My finances prohibt me from buying cetain "retired" pieces.

G.L.O.W.S. allow me to build on my planned collection in an affordable manner. I honestly think that they are as nice as the Limited Editions. There are a few Harbour Lights which have been retired for a while that I would like to see be re-issued as G.L.O.W.S because they were made before I began collecting and the cost on the secondary market may prohibt me from owning them.

To G.L.O.W or not to G.L.O.W?

Not really a question to me, I love lighthouses and enjoy collecting Harbour Lights.

Keep the Flame!

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77817 05/12/99 06:51 PM
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orv Offline
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ALERT, ALERT

Someone is trying to start a secondary market for GLOW's on ebay. Just today a #424 Key West sold for 71.00 with 6.00 shipping. In most states you can buy one at your local dealer with tax paid for around $68.00 to $70.00.

Also a Holland #407 sold for $52.00 plus $6.00 shipping. Seems like old P. T. was right. This way to the egress------>

UPDATE, Montauck GLOW currently at $76.00. What the ?
------------------



ORV

[This message has been edited by orv (edited 05-12-99).]

[This message has been edited by orv (edited 05-12-99).]


ORV
Re: More GLOW claptrap #77818 05/12/99 10:57 PM
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GLOW, LE, 5500, 9500, 10000, as many as they can make, Who cares! I have ONE sitting in my curio cabinet. The value of a creation from HL is the enjoyment I have when I look at it and show it to my friends. All the edition size does is dictate when I buy a piece (Hopefully before retirement) and how much I have to pay (Hopefully not above retail). After I have one on my shelf, the other factors cease to be important.

The above is the opinion of the author and does not necesarily represent the views of Bill Younger & Associates, Harbour Lights, this forum, various saints, or any other wackos.

I have to say though that this is an interesting and lively discussion. Keep stirring the pot.

AB in Ala-Bam

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77819 05/13/99 08:23 AM
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Hi Alan, ... Just think, someday you might have a Harbour Lights collection that will surpass those who have collected every LE but ignored the Glows. Maybe someday, HL might just stop making Glows and every open edition you have will have been manufactured in a limited amount making them numbered limited editions.

Four of the original fourteen have been revised/retired. Could this trend extend even further? How many of you would like to see St. Augustine be revised and come back as the size of the current Cape Hatteras Glow? Wouldn't that be special displayed right next to the new Coquille Glow in your curio...lol!

Bob

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77820 05/13/99 08:44 AM
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I agree Bob. I bought the AB series in the more collectible limited editions. Now only 13 lucky or farsighted collectors have a shot at a complete collection of the open edition Anchor Bay ships. You never know what will be rare in the future, so just collect what you like. For investing purposes, T-Bills are supposed to be safe and predictable.

AB in Ala-Bam

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77821 05/13/99 10:06 PM
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Joanne Offline
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I also noticed the prices on some GLOWs on Ebay, especially Montauk. All I can say is maybe someone who is not familiar with the HL line, thought they were bidding on the limited edition and not a GLOW.

P.S. My new mouse is finally working correctly. Thanks to all who helped.

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77822 05/14/99 11:46 PM
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Hi Joanne, ... You are absolutely right about being careful to check whether the HL you are bidding on is actually a limited edition and not a Glow. I follow eBay closely and have noticed people bidding higher than retail on Glows. I don't think it's because they are hard pressed to find the Glow at retail. I feel they may be new and don't quite understand the difference in value between a LE and a OE. Hopefully, they won't get taken too badly so they won't get discouraged about collecting HLs.

Bob

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77823 05/18/99 11:09 AM
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orv Offline
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On ebay there is currently some auctions for "Retired Glows" perhaps someone should direct them to this discussion.


ORV
Re: More GLOW claptrap #77824 05/18/99 06:50 PM
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Al and Kathy Offline
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I love the GLOWs I have and will continue getting them, but it sounds like people can be confused if ebay is offering them as "retired" - by believing they are buying an LE. I believe this is confusing many new collectors. I don't belong to ebay, but can someone who does set them straight or direct them here as Orv suggests? Or is this a situation where people learn they should study items carefully before buying?

Kathy

[This message has been edited by Al and Kathy (edited 05-18-99).]

[This message has been edited by Al and Kathy (edited 05-18-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77825 05/18/99 10:48 PM
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Joanne Offline
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Since I've only started collecting this February, I am not familiar with a lot of the pieces. I have gotten many of them through Ebay and found giftware and collectible store sites to be excellent sources of reference. It's important to know what you're bidding on. The Lighthouse Depot is also an excellent source to see a picture of the item.

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77826 05/18/99 11:36 PM
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I've found the catalog pages on this web site to be the very best source anywhere for pictures of HL sculptures, especially retired models. If you haven't already, try it at: http://www.harbourlights.com/catalog/index.htm .



------------------
Keepin' the flame

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77827 05/19/99 01:55 AM
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Kathy,

It's not eBay that is responsible for the information in each auction, it is the individual seller. I think this is a case where the buyer must educate himself or herself before jumping in.

A potential bidder should take Lamar's advice: check out the catalog on this site first. Always check the model number before you buy: the GLOWS all have 400-series numbers, the LEs will have something other than a 400-series number. If the ad doesn't specify, confirm it with the seller before bidding. Also confirm as best you can the piece's condition, whether or not it has its original box and paperwork, and confirm the edition number (serial number). Know what you are bidding on.

Also, check out many secondary market dealers to get some idea of going prices (do a search through your browser, looking for "Harbour Lights"). Keep watch on eBay, and check into the Marketplace Forum on this site as well. Don't forget to read the rest of the Forums here either. Get yourself educated before bidding on anything.

eBay is wonderful for bringing buyers and sellers together, but as always, "Caveat Emptor" -- Let the buyer beware!

------------------
-Art


-Art
Re: More GLOW claptrap #77828 05/19/99 03:03 AM
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JTimothyA Offline OP
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Quote:
On ebay there is currently some auctions for "Retired Glows" perhaps someone should direct them to this discussion.


Many of the posts in this thread promote the notion that there are retired GLOWs which are rare and collectible because they have edition sizes to rival Limited Editions - or some combination of these attributes. But surely no one could possibly be misled by this discussion. Could they?

And what difference does it make anyway - after all - isn't 'it a matter of what the consumer places value on, not what the market places value on'. The folks bidding at ebay on retired GLOWs are no doubt just buying what they like.

Sorry, no smilies or dancing icons for sarcasm,
__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 05-19-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77829 05/19/99 08:01 AM
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Maybe you're right, Tim.....maybe open edition pieces that will no longer be manufactured utilizing the mold that created them should be renamed. Here are a few suggested names for those pieces:

1. Retired Open Edition

2. LEHL formerly known as a GLOW

3. The New Limited Unlimited Edition

4. Retired Limited Unlimited Edition Giftware Collectible

5. (enter your own choice here!)

That's the word from the East Coast where the temperature is 62 degrees and it's currently raining.

Bob

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77830 05/19/99 11:42 AM
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orv Offline
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I heartily agree with the advice that Lamar and Art give concerning the HL web page with the catalog. By using them along with the tables for each year and the spread sheet of Tim's, one can get an excellent basic education in the Harbour Lights line. This forum fills in the rest of the intricacies. I know this from experience, as that is the way I am learning about them. I printed off the catalog for each year and have made a notation by each piece which one also has a GLOW model. This really helped me learn which ones have a GLOW edition. My compliments to the webmaster and others that are so helpful in learning about this collectible.


ORV
Re: More GLOW claptrap #77831 05/19/99 01:24 PM
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Al and Kathy Offline
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The folks bidding at ebay on retired GLOWs are no doubt just buying what they like.


Sorry, but if you don't like HLs, then you probably wouldn't be buying them to begin with. I know you don't care for the like bit, but it sure plays a very important part. Maybe we all need to add that you can buy what you like, but educate yourself first. I'm under no illusions about my GLOWs and will continue to buy them along with my LEs.

Kathy

[This message has been edited by Al and Kathy (edited 05-19-99).]

[This message has been edited by Al and Kathy (edited 05-19-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77832 05/19/99 10:08 PM
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Withdrawn...
,


That's the word on GLOWs that are no longer being made. "Withdrawn from production pending revision".

Now as to wondering if the 'withdrawn' GLOWs have any secondary market value, yes so long as someone is willing to pay something for it -- whether at original retail, a discount, or an appreciated value.

[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 05-19-99).]

Re: More GLOW claptrap #77833 05/22/99 10:36 PM
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Robert M Dick Offline
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Saint,

This post is too wide for my screen. Others are not. Why?

Moby of Tidewater


Moby
Re: More GLOW claptrap #77834 05/23/99 12:41 AM
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Moby - way back up there are 3 URLs. The software doesn't want to break that line so it sets the max width to that. Same thing can happen when there is an image that's too wide for some screen settings.

If you've got a 15" monitor or better, try setting the resolution to 800x600.


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