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No respect for the flag of our nation... #77625 03/01/03 11:31 AM
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I saw it on the news and again on a re-run of "Inside Edition", earlier this morning.

A female student and basketball player, I believe her name was Toni Smith, at Manhattanville College near New York City, refuses to face the American Flag during the playing of our National Anthem. She claims she's protesting the current policies of the government of our country.

This has disturbed many veterans and other true Americans. She has drawn press from all over our country and some international media.

As one veteran put it, "Our Flag stands for the freedom and liberty that so many Americans have fought for and given their life for." "The flag doesn't stand for the government."

The tragic events of 9-11-01 have changed the lives of everyone in America. Things will never be the same as they were before.

I consider myself a true American and what Ms. Smith is doing is an insult to me and every other citizen of the United States.

I believe everyone has a right to their own beliefs, BUT if you do not respect our Flag, our Nation, and you do things to disrespect it, then you should no longer enjoy the rights and priviledges of living in a free nation like America. America, love it or leave it!

This also applies to those who choose to try to embarass our country by going to Iraq and joining the enemy as human shields. I say revoke their U.S. Citizenship and never let them back into this country. Let their pictures appear on Time magazine living in disgrace with the enemy. Their life span should be cut by about 75% over there.

Our Flag stands for our country, and not the government that is elected to run it. Elected officials change on a regular basis. What our Flag stands for never changes! If Ms. Smith doesn't like the Bush Administration, I would recommend she puts a "Don't blame me, I voted for Gore" bumper sticker on her back, and vote accordingly in the next election.

mad Bob mad

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77626 03/01/03 11:36 AM
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I read that in the paper yeaterday. So many people have given their lives for both flag and country! What a disgrace, after all that our country has been through. Especially in the recent years, which I am sure she's aware of.... :rolleyes:

I have no ue for these type of people. Turn away from our flag? Then you are turning away from FREEDOM. mad


Marblehead, Mass. Lighthouse, you will always have a very special place in our hearts. ....We've made the journey as far south as New Jersey, as far north as Canada. Over 100 lighthouses visited.... and so many more to go.
Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77627 03/01/03 11:49 AM
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She does have the right to turn her back on the flag....just like those "screen-saver's", who are going to Iraq. However, let them be reminded that they ARE responsible for their deeds and actions, no matter what!


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Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77628 03/01/03 05:19 PM
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WELL SAID BOB...
Ruthie smile


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Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77629 03/01/03 08:33 PM
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As Ruthie said, "WELL SAID BOB". I saw that on the news and read about it in the local paper. People like that disgust me in so many ways. In fact, I still get angry just thinking about it. I fought for that flag and the freedoms that it affords. People like that can do what they want because people have fought and died for that flag. As far as I'm concerned, revoke their citizensip and let them stay over there. And while we are at it, some of those barking actors can join them. imho

Tim mad

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77630 03/01/03 08:49 PM
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So, if I understand everyone correctly- a person is not free to excersise the freedom that they have due to the flag if they don't do it in a manner that you approve of.

Should we revoke only the citizenship of those you don't agree with or those who have voiced an opinion.

Should all the barking actors be silenced- even the ones you agree with? Or again, just the ones that you don't agree with.

Just curious. I know my questions will not be popular, but that's OK. I spent 27 years as a Liberal Prison Guard. I'm used to having unpopular opinions.

I tend to believe that the Flag does symbolize the greatest freedoms that we have- and that includes the Freedom to disagree, the Freedom to speak your opinion without being ridiculed, the Freedom to express yourself as you wish and the Freedom to allow others to do the same.

But I could be wrong. Like it or not the Flag not only symbolizes our Nation it symbolizes the leaders and the people. It does stand for our Government as well as for our People. This is the reason that it is so respected.

It's also the reason why we as Americans have the right to show our displeasure with the manner in which our Leaders are using that symbol. Our Leaders are using the Flag to bolster their opinions, and so should any other American be able to use it similarlly.

Just an opinion, though. I don't expect many others to share it, and again that's OK. I respect your opinions, even if I don't totally agree with them.

Dennis

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77631 03/01/03 10:26 PM
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I do understand your point. I am not saying to revoke anyone's citizenship over the issue. I just know that the flag stands for America and the Freedom that our beautiful country brings. Does turning away from the flag mean that you are not honoring the people who fought to make this country free? The flag will be an enduring symbol, like many of our lighthouses.... But I would hate to think that people turn their backs on it, like so many lighthouses that are left to be lost forever. Other people may see someone turn their back and think that it's okay to do the same. I don't think it's okay to turn away from it. Nothing against anyone's opinion, please understand.


Marblehead, Mass. Lighthouse, you will always have a very special place in our hearts. ....We've made the journey as far south as New Jersey, as far north as Canada. Over 100 lighthouses visited.... and so many more to go.
Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77632 03/01/03 10:33 PM
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That's okay Dennis... you are free to express what your likes and dislikes are in this country and so am I. So, what do you think when you go to places like the Arlington National Cemetary, The Vietnam Memorial, etc?

Tim

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77633 03/01/03 10:40 PM
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Well, you've got an ally here, Dennis. Whether they like it or not, those who serve in the armed forces are upholding---at the risk of their very life---our right to speak out against our leaders and how they're running the country. And yes, even to turn our back on the flag if we choose. I'm sure Toni (or whoever she is) wasn't directing her protest at soldiers---it was directed at the people who, in her mind, have tarnished what the flag means to her (politicians). What's the old adage: "I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death your right to say it."

Sadly, there are those who feel that such displays of expression are the only way they can draw attention to their view. Personally, I feel writing a letter to my elected officials---or the editor of my local paper---is effective enough. She chose back-turning as her modus operandi. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin would vigorously defend her right to do that.

I find a great deal of arrogance in statements like, "America: Love it or leave it." I say, "America: Respect its ideals...and please speak out!" There is such complacency in this country (check out the percentage of people who actually vote) that we risk turning into an empire. Thank goodness we have the dissenters who speak out---who write the books and articles, who fill web sites, who march, who let our leaders know that they work for ALL of us. And I'm talking about liberal dissent, conservative dissent, religious dissent, atheistic dissent...the whole ball 'o wax. Bring it on.

And with all due respect, our flag is not owned by veterans only. It belongs to all of us equally because it represents all of us equally. When the warm weather arrives, mine will be back on its pole in the front yard, honoring everyone who ever bore the privilege of U.S. citizenship---the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77634 03/01/03 11:15 PM
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And not trying to be a smart---, just how many of the people that feel they can turn their back to the flag, or the ones that feel these people have a God given right to turn their back on our flag, have ever served in the Armed Forces and been shot at, or worst yet, injured or killed. In my opinion these are the people that protested Viet Nam or are the sons and daughters of the people that protested. The only reason that these people have the right, or think they have the right to protest, is because of the servicemen and women that fought for your behinds while you were protesting something else. I'm done and will not read anymore of this posting because it really p----- me off.

A retired Viet Nam veteran of 23 years.


Rich
Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77635 03/02/03 01:31 AM
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Tim,

I think you have to reread what I wrote.

I don't believe I said anything that was disrespectful or should make one believe that I do not honor those that have fought for the Freedoms we have in this country. I have great respect for those who made the great sacrifices neeeded to maintain everyon'e freedoms.

I was ponting out that the act that so displeases some is one that is at the heart of those Freedoms that many have fought hard to preserve.

And no disrespect meant to anyone but I find the concept that only those who have served in teh Armed Services of this country have the right to opinions about the Freedoms that make this country what it is.

Millions upon millions of people who did not could not or chose not to serve in one of the Armed forces have made contribution after contribution to the country.

I did not serve in the Armed Forces- it was not by choice. I attempted to enlist in the Army and the Air force. I failed the physical both times due to a medical condition brought on by an ill ness in my Senior year of high school.

My oldest brother served 4 years in the Navy. My other brother served 4 years active and 26 years Reserve in the Army and retired. I believe even without any of that I have the right to be heard.

I also put myself into the Draft and was not called up- my number was not reached. I resent that some feel that because I did not serve in a specific capacity that I don't have the same right to express my opinions or to have them questioned as if I'm the Enemy.

One of the tenets of this country is that we have the right to protest- some might recall that we started as a protest against the British.

If you ask them we were traitorsd and they hung many a person for what we fought to allow them to do- believe what they believed and to express those opinions when nesacarry.


I'm not sorry I spoke my mind, even if I knew that the reaction would be as it was.

Dennis

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77636 03/02/03 02:19 AM
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The right to voice one's displeasure with the government of our country is a right we all hold near and dear. We are one of the few places in this world that would allow such behavior. At the very least each one of us has the responsibility, as a citizen of the US, to voice their approval or disapproval of the government each time we have an election. However, disrespecting the flag of our country is an entirely different situation.

Our flag represents our country, all the people that have worked for more than 200 years to make it the great place that it is. Some have done this by serving in the Armed Forces and fighting in wars; some have done it by staying home to take care of the homefront; some have done so by serving in an elected capacity. Part of the problem with today's world, IMNSHO, is that too many have stopped showing proper respect for the symbol of our great country.

The young lady is entitled to oppose the leadership. Doing it as she has chosen to has shamed her school and team mates. I wonder how her disrespect went over the other evening at the USMMA? We had three German exchange students swim with our high school team this year, and they showed more respect for our grand old flag than this person did.

Dave


Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77637 03/02/03 03:51 AM
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Quote:
And no disrespect meant to anyone but I find the concept that only those who have served in teh Armed Services of this country have the right to opinions about the Freedoms that make this country what it is.
I never turned this into a "I served the military" thing only. You and others did. I said that I fought and served for this country and the flag that represents it so well. All citizens do have the right to speak their mind, whether on the streets, or in here. As I said before, that includes me! I chose to speak up against those who are speaking against this country, either by words or action. My opinion of them still stands, barking or not! Why does the flag hang in the National Museum Of History? Because it was there during a battle and it continues to stand even though it is battle torn. It is a part of our history and it represents those freedoms that are afforded this country.

"Oh thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a Nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: In God is our trust.
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"
Final Verse, Star Spangled Banner--Battle Song of America. As written by Francis Scott Key


Yes, I read and reread what you had to say. I still stand by what I said just as you stand by what you have said. No regrets.

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77638 03/02/03 11:24 AM
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Tim,

I should not have addressed that previous post to you. Only a portion of it was meant as a response specifically to you.

I got started and more words came out. I should have gone back and changed the heading. I did not mean to say you stated that aspect of this thread.

I do apologize for that.

I do not for any other aspect of my posts. Thia next part is not specifically to you Tim.

The problem with this thread is that it's one of those areas where it's next to impossible for people to see the "other" side, if there is such a thing.

We all are stating a basic reverence for the Flag of our Country. We just disagree on how the Freedoms it has kept for us can be expressed.

I fel that because the flag is such a powerful symbol of those Freedoms that it can be nesacarry that it be used when one is expressing displeasure with the direction that the Leaders of this Nation are taking.

The fact that people use the Flag underlines the fact that they themselves actually hold it to be as important as those who feel that it should not be used in such a manner.

It is not in my opinion acting disrespectfully to the Flag- is is actually being respectful of what it stands for.

This is why I stated the concept of the "other" side in the way I did. I don't think that there is that much difference in either side at it's base.

Again, this of course is just an opinion. I want to strongly state that I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who have served our Country in and out of the Armed Services.

Dennis

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77639 03/02/03 02:11 PM
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The flag is a symbol of respect for the concept of freedom and not representative of the politics of a nation or a nation's citizens. One can show respect for the flag and still find other venues to protest the politics of the nation. By disrespecting a tradition such as standing for the flag, those outside our country do not necessarily see the political protest; they see the disrespect and claim it is a symptom of the "rotting" of our country.


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Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77640 03/02/03 06:06 PM
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The eloquent Bill Moyers makes his case:

My lapel flag pin

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77641 03/02/03 07:11 PM
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Bob M Offline OP
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Where's Herb Filbrick when you need him?

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77642 03/02/03 07:48 PM
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To those of you that feel it is alright to turn your back on the American Flag: The next time your at a funeral, be it your mother's, aunt's, son's, friend's, etc., try turning your back on the service. I'm sure at one time you had a disagreement with that person. Why not protest their existence? It's your right isn't it? Lord knows there's no entity I've ever been in COMPLETE agreement with. But the American Flag is THE symbol of everything this country stands for. This little girl's conduct is utterly appalling. So completely disrespectful for everyone that's come before her...it makes me sick.

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77643 03/03/03 09:01 AM
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Well stated, Pierhead!!!

Bob

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77644 03/03/03 10:15 PM
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To those of you who feel they can disrespect the flag I guess you never served in the Armed Forces. I have and still do, and I take offense to those who disrespect for what I'm willing to die for. I guess a lot of you have never had to go on 90 day deployments or maybe two year deploments and be away from your family and loved ones and make personal sacrifices. We take freedom for granted in the US and there are so many countries who are not that fortunate. Just count your blessings each and every day.


David
Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77645 03/04/03 12:27 AM
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Its part of the price of freedom that we tolerate the cluelessness of youth.

The girl's actions were appalling to me. Perhaps it is ironic, but the very freedom for which our servicemen have fought and died permits her the tasteless expression she chose. The fact that people such as this girl can express her dissent with legal impunity sheds a positive light on our nation when viewed from beyond its shores.

T

P.S. Bill Moyers is a klingon apparatchik. ;->

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77646 03/04/03 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by JTimothyA:
Its part of the price of freedom that we tolerate the cluelessness of youth.

The girl's actions were appalling to me. Perhaps it is ironic, but the very freedom for which our servicemen have fought and died permits her the tasteless expression she chose. The fact that people such as this girl can express her dissent with legal impunity sheds a positive light on our nation when viewed from beyond its shores.

T

P.S. Bill Moyers is a klingon apparatchik. ;->
Boy Tim, I was nodding my head and nodding my head in agreement right up to that P.S. part. I was thinking he was a Tribble.

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77647 03/04/03 11:11 AM
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Bill Harnsberger Offline
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And another thing...

Smith Turns Heads...

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77648 03/04/03 11:22 AM
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One tenet of playing a sport is to uphold wholesome ideals including good sportsmanship. When Smith forces her political views upon the basketball fans, she violates that principle. She has the right to protest to support her beliefs, but she has to pick the venue that will serve that protest. The basketball game is not that venue.


good friends mean good times
Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77649 03/04/03 11:33 AM
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I don't listen to Marvin Gay.
I don't shout at ball games, other than for fouls, or etc.
I don't use the American flag as window treatment nor have it slapped on tacky T-shirts.
and I vote.

So, what's your point?

Tim

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77650 03/04/03 12:41 PM
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Bill Harnsberger Offline
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Facetiousness aside...

It means that a good American will lay down his or her life for your right to not listen to Marvin Gaye, to not shout at ball games other than fouls etc., to not turn the flag into window treatment or have it slapped onto tacky T-shirts and, most important, to vote.

That same good American will also lay down his or her life for Toni's right to turn her back on the flag and whatever else her impossibly young little heart and mind desires.

Your freedom to think and act as your conscience see fit...and HER freedom to think and act as her conscience sees fit...are equal. In the eyes of the U.S. Constitution, you are no better than she is, and vice versa, no matter how difficult that may be to accept.

That's the point.

I am saddened that the anti-Toni crowd has made no attempt to understand why she feels the way she does. Civil debate is out the window in favor of pure disgust.

(By the same token, I acknowledge that the pro-Toni crowd, too, isn't taking fully into account the point of view of those on the other side of the issue).

Is it any wonder young people feel like we don't care? WE DON'T LISTEN TO THEM.

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77651 03/04/03 02:27 PM
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the "young people" used to protest against their parents. Then they protested against their school. Now they seem to protest against the country. If they understand what they are protesting against and the ramifications of their protest, at least they do so from an informed viewpoint. As a teacher, I find that many just "jump on the bandwagon." They do what they do because someone they admire in their social circle, or someone they want to notice them and think this will do it, has convinced them that this will make them "cool." This is from an uninformed viewpoint.


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Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77652 03/04/03 04:45 PM
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Why should I understand why Ms. Smith turns her back on the American flag? As far as I'm conerned, if she turns her back on the flag, she is turning her back on this country. You can preach to me until you are blue in the face, but I'm still not going to accept it. Like it or not, I'm not going to accept her methods of disapproval. And by the way, you can throw names at me like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin and claim they would vigorously defend her right to do what she does, but in all honesty, she would have been tried for treason during the infancy of this country.

Tim

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77653 03/04/03 05:06 PM
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Well, yeah, because she's a woman. They had virtually no rights back then. Thank goodness they turned their back on the establishment, stirred up dissent, and paved the way for equal rights (which, tragically, they still haven't totally achieved, especially in the workplace).

On another note, I don't think public transportation is a proper venue for protest, either. But thank goodness Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of that bus.

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77654 03/04/03 05:49 PM
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The young lady"s actions sickened me and still does no matter what anyone says, but I must realize that she has that right and there are may Americans who have fought and died to GIVE her that right. Freedom is the ULTIMATE right and the ULTIMATE gift that is given to all Americans. As soon as we begin to take that freedom away is when we will see our forefather's sacrifices wasted in vain. I wish she did not do it, and it still sickens me, but I WILL fight for her freedom to do it. - Joe

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77655 03/04/03 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Well, yeah, because she's a woman. They had virtually no rights back then.
Oh come on now, that is a copout and you know it. I think you are arguing just to argue. It would have made no difference whether she was a woman or not back then. That is a different story altogether.

And Joe, I totally agree that she has the right to do what she is doing. I disagree completely with how she is doing it. As you said, it sickens me.

Tim

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77656 03/04/03 06:27 PM
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I think this thread may win the contest for most responses in a 3 day time period.!! Whew!!!!


Geo H.
Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77657 03/04/03 07:09 PM
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Okay, so let's say it was a man who quietly turned his back on the flag. Would he have really been tried for treason back then? Hardly. Like Ms. Smith, he might not have been the most popular person on the block, but he wouldn't have been up on treason charges. Lynched by a rabid mob, perhaps, but that's hardly the same thing.

I think we can probably call the debate a draw at this point, and go have a few drinks. We all seem to agree that she had the right to do what she did...the rest is gut reaction, which we're all entitled to, and which no amount of words will ever change.

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77658 03/04/03 10:02 PM
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LOL George, it has been interesting reading though!

And Bill... let's just say we agree to disagree!

Tim

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77659 03/04/03 10:05 PM
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Wow, this is a topic that could fry some eggs! Not sure if I should chime in since I have never served my country in the military, although, my father, grandfather, uncle's, brother, brother-in-law, and husband have all served. I believe everyone has the right to voice their opinions both pro and con about any action our government takes. Having said that I do not believe that we have the right to disrespect the flag which is a symbol of democracy and freedom. There are other ways this young lady should have used to show her opinion of the governments policies. When we pledge allegience to our flag we are saying we believe in democracy and the right to freedom no matter who you are. The flag symbolizes those freedoms, it does not represent the U.S's current policies of a democratic or republican administration. I believe there should be laws restricting what can and can't be done to and against our flag. To me if you turn your back on the flag, you turn your back on freedom!!!! God Bless America and Our Flag!
Sincerely,
Kat


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Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77660 03/05/03 03:18 AM
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...and God bless the FSB. :-)

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77661 03/05/03 09:38 AM
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I have been following this thread without comment, but I must post this story from this mornings Times Union in Albany and ask the question :
Is this what our flag is supposed to represent?

He kept his shirt on -- and got arrested

Guilderland-- Crossgates Mall shopper charged after refusing to take off shirt with peace slogan

By CAROL DeMARE, Staff writer
First published: Wednesday, March 5, 2003

An attorney for the state was arrested and hauled into court after refusing to take off a T-shirt that said "Give Peace a Chance" while shopping at Crossgates Mall.

This is at least the second time in recent months that mall security asked people wearing T-shirts with peace slogans to leave.

Steve Downs, 60, of Selkirk, said he was minding his own business Monday when he refused to remove the shirt and was charged with trespass.

"My point was I'm not trying to convert anybody," Downs said Tuesday. "This was a statement of where I was in my life."

He had purchased the shirt in a shop in the mall shortly before the arrest. The store put on the lettering while he waited: "Peace on Earth" on the front and "Give Peace a Chance" on the back.

His son, Roger Downs, 31, of New Baltimore, an ecologist, also bought a shirt. It read "No War With Iraq" and "Let Inspections Work."

"When they asked me to take it off, I took it off," Roger said. "I think it was ridiculous. I guess the way we see this is we feel the mall has a right to control assembly, not want large protests or large special interest groups or rallies. We were just individuals with T-shirts on, and we were shopping. We weren't talking to people or handing out leaflets."

Numerous calls to Crossgates Marketing Director Sarah Nieves regarding mall policy were not returned.

Heidi Siegfried, interim executive director of the Capital Region chapter of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said, "We have the position that the public space in the mall should be a First Amendment protected activity. Even when they have the right to control and prohibit ... someone shouldn't be removed when doing activity consistent with the normal uses of the mall."

On Dec. 21, about two dozen anti-war protesters wearing pro-peace T-shirts and carrying signs were asked to leave Crossgates. The group complied.

The incident with the father and son occurred shortly after 7 p.m. in the food court. They said they were asked by two security guards to take off their T-shirts, leave or be arrested.

"I don't think we have to take off the T-shirts," said Steve Downs, chief attorney in the Albany office of the Commission on Judicial Conduct.

The guards returned with a Guilderland police officer and, "It was the same routine all over again," the father said. "I said 'OK, arrest me.' "

The cop talked to him for an hour after he was handcuffed, Downs said, trying to get him to drop the whole thing and take the shirt off.

"I didn't want to do that," Downs said. "They were just doing their duty. They were trying to be very peaceful. They didn't want any confrontation."

He was repeatedly told the mall was private property and what he was wearing was unacceptable, the same as if he went to someone's home wearing something unacceptable.

"I said it's not the same thing, it's not a good analogy," said Steve Downs, who insisted he wasn't protesting or demonstrating by wearing the shirt.

Guilderland Town Justice Kenneth Riddett released Downs on his own recognizance and set a return date of March 17. Trespass, a violation, carries a maximum of 15 days in jail. A fine or conditional discharge with community service is more commonly given.

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77662 03/05/03 11:03 AM
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People amaze me. If security had just let it be, it would have been just another quiet night at the mall. But now, thanks to them, this story will be all over the country. The net result: more sympathy for the no-war crowd. They really messed with the wrong guy here.

Over a T-shirt. With no swear words. Or graphic images. Advocating peace.

What a circus.

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77663 03/05/03 01:27 PM
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I had stopped responding on this thread mostly because as both Bill & Tim pointed out we have stated our positions and basically agree that we're not going to be swayed by the other's points. I can accept that.

I feel the need to respond to the Mall story.

I wonder how consistent they are with this policy- do they ask people wearing shirts for or against any issue to take them off, leave or be arressted?

If they feel a shirt advocating Peace is objectionable do they also feel that one advocating War is objectionable?

Do they make people wearing Flag t-shirts leave as some (even some responding to this thread) feel that is objectionable?

I think this policy is ludicrous. I can see requiring a group making an active demonstration and interfering with the normal operation of the Mall's business being asked to leave or be arrested, but the idea of a lone citizen (or even just a lone human being) making a statement of their beliefs is going too far.

I suppose that there would be some shirts that could legitamitely be described as too much for a public place like a Mall, but the one described does not fit that description. At least in my opinion.

I wonder if the Mall Management went to the stroe in the Mall that sold the t-shirts and made thme stop selling those shirts- or did they tell them to give their customers a warning that it was not allowed to wear the t-shirt in the Mall- only buy it. Wouldn't want to lose a sale.

I applaud the gentleman who stood his ground and refused to remove the t-shirt.

What's next someone deciding that no Lighthouse t-shirts are allowed to be worn. laugh

Dennis

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77664 03/05/03 01:36 PM
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Can you say 'boycott'? Wonder how long it would take the mall owners to change their 'policy'?

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77665 03/05/03 04:09 PM
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Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77666 03/05/03 04:15 PM
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As a veteran who wears the National Defense medal, among others, I fully agree with Bill. I did not serve in a time of war to defend a flag! I served to defend the principles this country is founded on and the constitution of the United States. When you enlist you swear to uphold and defend the constitution, not the flag. You swear to protect this country from all aggressors foreign and domestic, not the flag. You also swear to follow the orders of the Commander in Chief and it doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with him. You see, he also swears before god and everyone to uphold and defend the constitution, to defend this country against all aggressors foreign and domestic. Unfortunately, this president seems to have forgotten his oath and has taken it on himself to be the aggressor, which may or may not be in the best interest of this nation. He is going to first strike a nation on what might happen, could happen, may happen and the ruler is an evil man, a weak argument I must say. Really, using this kind of thinking we should have launched our nuclear missiles against Russia, China and North Korea long ago and kicked out any number of dictators instead of using them as friends and allies. We all severed for our own reasons. Some of us had to because of the draft, some volunteered because of the draft, some of us volunteered to serve because we were in a war and our country needed help. It was a combination of these factors that led me to enlist over 30 years ago instead of going to Canada as some people did. Everyone please remember it’s what’s in your heart that counts not what flag you carry. I still get a tear in my eye when I say the pledge that is how strongly I am move. It’s doesn’t come from the flag, it’s not whether or not I say under god, but it’s what’s in my heart. It’s the love of my country that swells up within me, this is what causes me to tear-up during the pledge not the flag. Let Toni turn away from the flag if she wants at least she has a position. I say if she didn’t love this country she would do nothing like so many her age. Let there be dissent and embrace it because that is what set us apart from all the others.


Chuck

PS Personally, I think President Bush is pissed because Saddam put out a contract on his dad and now it’s payback time.


bigdragon
Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77667 03/05/03 06:36 PM
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Chuck,

Here, Here!

Well said. I wish I could have made my points as concisely and clearly. I agree with everything you said.

Dennis

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77668 03/06/03 11:42 AM
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Mall update:

Crossgates Mall officials have dropped trespassing charges filed Monday against war protester Steve Downs, who wore a pro-peace T-shirt as he walked through the building that afternoon.

The decision to negate the arrest came Wednesday evening, after more than 100 anti-war protesters descended upon the mall wearing shirts similar to Downs'.

This was probably a very wise decision!!

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77669 03/07/03 12:52 AM
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He wasn't really a war protester. He was wearing a "Give Peace a Chance" T-shirt as he ate in the food court.


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Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77670 03/09/03 02:59 PM
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Bill Harnsberger Offline
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Not meaning to re-ignite this powder keg (not that there's anything wrong with that), but yesterday's "Thought for Today" in my local newspaper was apt for this thread on both sides of the issue:

"If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought---not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate."

---Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. (1841-1935)

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77671 03/09/03 08:08 PM
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Mall Update

First the security guard who was involved in the original confrontation was fired on Friday. Now the peace protesters were back in the Mall again today not only protesting for peace, but also that the security guard be reinstated.
Here is the story:

Protests continue at Crossgates Mall
Updated: 3/9/2003 3:19:54 PM
By: Capital News 9 web staff

There was another protest at Crossgates Mall, but there's still no resolution after two and a half hours of what protest leaders called negotiations with mall management.

Over 100 protesters showed up for Sunday's sit-in which was approved by the mall.

Crossgates' owner, the Pyramid Corporation, did not allow news cameras to videotape the rally.

Peace activists said they are determined to get Crossgates' attention.

Peace activist Erin O'Brien said, "We are calling for sustained action against Crossgates Mall and the Pyramid Corporation. We urge that people begin immediately directing phone calls, faxes, emails and letters to management offices stating that we will not tolerate this assault on free speech."

The group is not calling for a boycott of the mall, but they are asking that former security guard Robert Williams, who was fired on Friday, be reinstated.

Crossgates Mall issued a statement calling the meeting with protesters productive and "a positive discussion ensued", and "our top priority remains the safety and comfort of the people who shop at Crossgates."

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77672 03/10/03 02:48 AM
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wheland Offline
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Good for them. I hope he does get his job back.

I'm sure he didn't act on his own.

Dennis

Re: No respect for the flag of our nation... #77673 03/12/03 12:10 AM
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From the Whittier Daily News...

Antiwar protesters trash 9/11 memorial
American flags burned and slashed

By Debbie Pfeiffer Trunnell, Staff Writer


LA HABRA -- Antiwar protesters burned and ripped up flags, flowers and patriotic signs at a Sept. 11 memorial that residents erected on a fence along Whittier Boulevard days after the terrorist attacks in 2001 and have maintained ever since.

However, although officers witnessed the vandalism Saturday afternoon, police did not arrest three people seen damaging the display because they were "exercising the same freedom of speech that the people who put up the flags were,' La Habra Police Capt. John Rees said Monday.

"For this to be vandalism, there had to be an ill-will intent,' he said.

Rees said in order for police to take any action, the owner of the fence would have to file a complaint.

Jeff Collison, owner of The RV Center in La Habra, who has allowed residents to add patriotic symbols to the fence on his property, said he just might do that.

"Their free speech stops at destruction of private property. If they are allowed to come on my property and burn flags, does that mean I can go to City Hall or the police station and light their flags on fire because that is freedom of speech? To me, this is vandalism,' Collison said.

...

Full story here


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