cf-banner.jpg
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77423 01/28/02 12:42 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
Read an enthusiastic Part 1 here:

Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ?

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77424 01/28/02 12:49 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
Quote:
I wonder if the collector uproar when the first GLOWs were introduced plays a role. Not everyone may know that the first GLOWs were of lights that had not previously been released as Limited Editions. Collector sentiment, as expressed to Harbour Lights, was that no lighthouse should be a GLOW before it was a Limited Edition. Could this have painted HLs into a corner, restricting their flexibity in release schedule and forcing everything to be an LE at release. Imagine for a minute that 1/2 or 2/3 of a years releases were GLOWS. HLs would get revenue, committed LE collectors would have fewer pieces to buy each year and the finite supply of lighthouses to be sculpted would last several more year. Done this way, maybe GLOWS would have helped instead of hurt. Just a thought. And not fully formed at this point either.


So we'd get NEW pieces as GLOWS that in terms of quality and price are virtually indistinquishable from an LE except they have never been made before, and there is no edition size limitation?

BIG HURT.

Might as well abandon the Limited Edition.

It was not without good reason that Collectors put up a squawk sufficient to deter HL from this approach.

__
/
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 01-27-2002).]

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77425 01/28/02 02:03 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Tim , the way I read it is the new GLOWs are from LEs already out there. More GLOWs and fewer LEs will give more demand to the LEs. Its not my idea, but its how I saw it.


terry

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77426 01/28/02 02:26 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
The relevant section from Rick being: "Could this have painted HLs into a corner, restricting their flexibity in release schedule and forcing everything to be an LE at release. Imagine for a minute..."

Perhaps fewer LE's would increase demand, but I don't think so. Although I would not be opposed to fewer editions per year - I understand HL believes in having something new for sale on dealer's shelves.

Imo, the issue is not the number of editions released but rather a) edition size and
b) items (such as GLOWS) competeing for the limited amount of lighthouse model dollars.

A new GLOW of Race Rock before the LE of Race Rock? How many dollars that could be spent on the LE would not get spent on it if people bought the GLOW first? Or worse - introducing a GLOW, the LE of which never gets made or not for a couple years. GLOWs confuse the line enough as is, this would make things more confusing, and imo, hurt LE sales.

Does any other Collectible manufacturer introduce an unlimited edition first?

__
/
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 01-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 01-27-2002).]

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77427 01/28/02 04:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
flacoastie Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
I have a thought. GLOWS were brought out to allow individuals to buy a remembrance from visiting the lighthouse or for the occasional purchase by a non-collector if a lighthouse had a sentimental memory. The GLOW was not meant to be incorporated into the LE collection of the real collector of Harbour Lights. This has not been what is happening. The GLOW has taken the place of the LE for a great portion of the collectors and has greatly hurt the value of the original LE. It has also been one of the causes of the glut on the shelves of dealers along with overproduction of LE for a short time.

Now that the overproduction of LE is being corrected by smaller edition sizes, let's do away with the GLOW altogether and let the LLOM take their place. The LLOM line is truly what the GLOW was originally intended to be: a gift or remembrance piece for the tourist or non-collector. Who knows, maybe with the deletion of the GLOW line, the number of LE production could support an issue of 10,000 pieces, however, I personally don't think so since I feel that only about 1,500-2,000 dedicated collectors are out there. No proof of this number, just a gut feeling.

My true feelings on GLOWS are they are bad for the company. Maybe there is a place for them, but, I don't see it other then to reduce the demand for the LE. If we had never had them introduced I'm sure the LLOM line would have happened sooner for the non-collector/tourist purchases. Just give me an ugly old Ponce Inlet or Nubble LE over the new and shiny GLOWS anytime. On with the LE line and LLOM line and down with the GLOWS.

Rich

[This message has been edited by flacoastie (edited 01-28-2002).]


Rich
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77428 01/28/02 01:59 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Rich it sounds good to me.

terry

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77429 01/28/02 02:21 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 452
R
RMau Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
R
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 452
Quote:
So we'd get NEW pieces as GLOWS that in terms of quality and price are virtually indistinquishable from an LE except they have never been made before, and there is no edition size limitation?


Actually Tim, I don't think so. I think (or maybe it's I hope) that HLs original intent was to have a substantial difference between an LE and GLOW of the same lighthouse. What we don't know is what the LE might have become over time. HLs had a plan in mind when the first GLOWs appeared. The collector discussions at the time caused them to change it.

I said in an earlier post that I agreed with Sean (and by extension you and other's that don't like the GLOWS) up to a point. Looking at and evaluating the GLOWs from the point of view of a collector of LEs, I understand your position, if the only criteria is to preserve the value of the collection of LEs. However, if the value of collecting is as intrinsic as you've said before, then for many collectors, having GLOWs and LEs co-exist, and for some GLOWs to come before the LE, is a bad thing only in that it may take many more years for all of the LEs to appear. The LE collector still gets the LE.

You and the others are right in that there needs to be a substantial difference between the GLOW and the LE. That is the wild card. We don't know what might have been.

From HLs perspective, they need to grow revenues in order to grow their company. They can do that in a couple of ways. More money from the same sources, or more money from more sources. I think most of our wallets would prefer a break and that HLs develop other lines of revenue instead of releasing more and more expensive LEs every year. I think this is another factor that plays into the recent spate of 50% off sales. HLs may be going to the 'dedicated collector' well too often and the well is drying up.

Interesting conversation. Let's keep it going.

Rick

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77430 01/28/02 02:30 PM
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
S
SThompson Offline
Administrator
Offline
Administrator
S
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
What other Collectible Companies make Open Editions that sit side by side with their retired Limited Editions? Somebody please start naming them here so that I can go check it out and see how they are doing it. How much different are the Open Editions from the Limited Editions?

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77431 01/28/02 02:53 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
I think at this point in the "GLOW WARS", that we should take a pole of the forum members. "Yes" you want GLOWS or "No" you don't want them. No other comments to clutter up the thread. Just a simple "YES" or "No".

The Lightkeeper
Mike

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77432 01/28/02 03:17 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,468
Digger Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 1,468
Mike, I can't give a simple yes or no answer. I "collect" LE's, but yet I have "bought" GLOWS. My favorite light "Old Mackinac Point" for example, the LE in no way resembles the real thing but the GLOW is an exact replica so I bought it. Sure the LE is still rather easy to get, I just don't like the way it looks. I buy the LE's almost exclusively but there is still a place for an occasional GLOW (only 3) now and then. I'm sure others here have done the same thing.

I guess my answer would have to be "Undecided". I could live without 'em, wouldn't miss them if they were gone but yet I still like them.

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77433 01/28/02 04:48 PM
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
S
SThompson Offline
Administrator
Offline
Administrator
S
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
No simple answer from me either. I just want there to be a "clear difference" between GLOWs and LEs. The LE should at this point and time be the most sought after version no if's or but's! When the GLOW is placed next to it's LE there shouldn't be the least hesitation as which the collector would prefer. Harbour Light's should not be trying to provide a replacement to the new collector for that retired lighthouse. If they don't wish to fill in their collection with that prized Limited Edition then they may choose to fill it in with the lesser GLOW. That lesser GLOW should not however fulfill their desire completely of some day owning the Limited Edition. If that Flame is blown out then what's the desire to keep collecting?

The uniqueness and desirability of the Limited Edition must be protected! That's the key to me! Harbour Lights do what you can to do this and I really don't mind the GLOWs.

imho

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77434 01/28/02 04:53 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Personally I like the idea of having LE's and LLOM. The GLOWS can go.I like the little lights and they make a nice display on a small shelf.

The Lightkeeper
Mike

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77435 01/28/02 10:43 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
Digger: >>My favorite light "Old Mackinac Point" for example, the LE in no way resembles the real thing but the GLOW is an exact replica so I bought it. <<

Digger, I think we have different lenses. Old Mackinac Point was my first HL and my view is just the opposite - the colors on the GLOW look cartoonish to me.

Rick: >>You and the others are right in that there needs to be a substantial difference between the GLOW and the LE. That is the wild card. We don't know what might have been.<<

If Split Rock and Marblehead were any indication of how HL saw that issue back then, it looks to me like both are very similar to their LE counterparts, as are the other lights in the GL Stamp series. So similar that they became LEs and no one blinked.

And yes recent GLOWs are almost indistinquishable from LEs. I realize HL has said fewer outbuildings on GLOWs, but there are many LEs with no outbuildings. The price is close, the quality is the same. The vast edition sizes of 10,000 might as well be Glows.

HL can't bring themselves to produce an inferior quality product. So what's left is size and price. They can ask themselves - if we were to price GLOWs at half the cost of the LE, what size can they be?

__
/

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77436 01/28/02 11:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
flacoastie Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
As I've said before with not a doubt in my military mind, do away with the GLOWS. Let the LLOM replace the GLOW for all the reasons that I've also mentioned before. Let the LE be the passion for the true collector and there will be no 50% sales on these LE because the collector will realize that if they procrastinate waiting to buy the LE, they will lose. The collector that is just starting out with Harbour Lights will be the same as the collector that is just starting out with any other true collectable, they will have to bite the bullet and spend the bucks if they truely want to say "I've got them all". Sorry to be so tough in my feeling but I've sacrficed to get where I'm at and I have done it WITHOUT GLOWS.

Rich


Rich
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77437 01/29/02 01:02 AM
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 934
RezmanDale Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 934
Now there is an idea I have thought of several time but never posted. GLOW's stopped and LLOMs taking their place. I have filled a few holes in my collection with GLOWs because I couldn't find an LE I could afford of St. Augustine, Cape Hatteras, St. Simon Island, Ponce, etc. The Glows are nice enough for now.

I agree there needs to be a dramatic differance between GLOWs and LEs. the LLOM's just may be the answer.

Now with the LLOMs the quality is there and the drastic differance is there and they are at a price most casual visitors might buy, leaving the LE's to collectors that are more serious about their obsession.

Dale

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77438 01/29/02 01:22 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 452
R
RMau Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
R
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 452
Split Rock and Marblehead are good examples. Suppose that those GLOWs were the intended standard for GLOWs. And suppose that the intended standard for LEs was something like
last year's Yerba Buena or even 1998's Cape Florida. Is there enough difference there to be distinctive? I think so. Tim makes a good point though. HLs would have to be content with that distinction. Another wildcard.

In a previous post Tim estimated the numbers of collectors in various categories.

Quote:
Number of active Collectors - hard to tell from year to year. My guess about hard core Collectors is somewhere around 1100. Active collector - arbitrarily picking a number of 6 purchases a year - I'll say around 3500.


I think those numbers are high. Not being a statistician and applying just some basic math to Tim numbers, if there are 1100 hard core collectors, that's 1100 of each release that is essentially pre-sold. So for a release of say 7,000 (a level about where some of the pre-mature retirements are) there are only 5,900 left for the active, six per year collector. That being the case, somewhere between two and three years after release there ought to be no more pieces on the dealer shelves. (2 years x 3500 collectors = 7,000 which is more than the 5,900 that is left for purchase after the hard core collector's get theirs) From what I see at R@R, that's not the case. There are lots of 1998 releases still around in early 2002. I don't think that there is one regular 1998 release that R@R can't provide a lead for. Here in early 2002, it appears to me that the real numbers of hard core and active collectors, by Tim's definitions, might be half of those numbers.

There are almost 900 registrations here on the Forums. Sean has pointed out that not all of them are for active or hard core collectors. What is the subset of active posters, in a forum other than the Marketplace? Given the length of time that this Forum has been active and the number of opportunities to folks to participate in a thread, let's define 'active poster' as more than 150 posts outside of the Marketplace. John, can you give us a number?

Really a thought provoking discussion. Let's keep it rolling. Maybe with a few new voices?

Rick

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77439 01/29/02 01:52 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
>>HLs would have to be content with that distinction. Another wildcard.<<

Not quite what I was after... The distinction I was drawing was, for example, between the Split Rock GLOW and the Split Rock LE or the Marblehead GLOW and Marblehead LE as representative of what HL had in mind for GLOWs when they first had the idea to make 'em. I see little distinction between these in terms of size or price.

By hard core collectors I'm not assuming they purchase every model; and the 1100 overlaps w/ the active collectors. Or put differently, 3,500 who buy at least 6 per year and out of that lot, 1,100 who buy - oh gee let's say 8 or more per year. Eight or more per year ($550-$650) is pretty hard core wouldn't ya say?

Wackos that purchase onef everything each year? Probably less than 300.

Autoships cover approximately 2,000 pieces.

1100 is 12% of of the number of Society Pieces sold in '99.

All the 'standard' '98 pieces were in the 10,000 edition size - probably not the best year to gauge by - not surprising they're still around.

Through approximately 1995, the average time until a piece retired was 3 years. Thats basically the lifespan of the initial 5500 series. Of course 'retired' simply means they're no longer available for order from Harbour Lights. Took 'em til 2000 to overcome the blunderjump of the 9500/10000 size editions. (Even committing a year in advance to their Eastern manufacturers, thats still a long time to misjudge the market - but that's water over the dam.)

But - sure my guesses could be high - but I'll bet they're not off by half. :-) I'll bet JC has a better guess - this is really his arena.

And yeah - new voices are certainly welcome - but isn't it fun that several of the frequent voices are the same ones that were yaking about this stuff on AOL many moons ago.

Supposed to get 4-9 inches of snow up north tonight - I sure hope Winter doesn't try to make up for it all in February.

__
/
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 01-28-2002).]

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77440 01/29/02 01:54 AM
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
S
SThompson Offline
Administrator
Offline
Administrator
S
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
Fort Gratiot, Hunting Island, I am still waiting for the LE to come out. I think there was a mix up on the sculpting. The GLOW was released before the limited and the "A" was not applied. We must all have variations. Hows that for a size provoking post?

LOL

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77441 01/29/02 01:57 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
Those were just make-ups for 'Zilla and Navesink. LOL

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77442 01/29/02 07:34 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 212
Gary Toth Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 212
That was an interesting and amusing concept, Mike, to try and get a series of yes and no answers with no additional comments from members of the forum. You should have known after viewing the discussions that take place here, particularly after doing so for over two years, that forum members (although there may be a rogue out there somewhere) are virtually incapable of answering a question without also tacking on an expanation of the answer and then commenting on the explanation. Well...., me too. That's the fun of the forums.

Wait....what was the question? Oh yeah, LE vs GLOW, which somehow mutated from whether it was acceptable to buy a HL piece at less than full price under your real name. First, a quick (yeah, sure) comment on buying at less than retail (the original discussion). Assuming that HL retailers still incorporate about a 100% mark-up on their product you could set a few psychological buying guidelines and institute a labeling system for buyers. First of all, regarding any purchase that you may have paid above retail you would, of course, never be able to talk about that situation publicly. Admitting to buying above retail, regardless of how badly you wanted the piece, would certainly lower your worth in the estimation of any longtime or even moderately capable shopper. Probably even small children would snicker behind your back. You would be labeled as "brain dead" and deservedly so. The one possible exception might be if the item were to be part of a charitable raffle. Then the description could be modified to "brain damaged-philanthropist". Buying at retail or at 100% of the listed price puts you in the plain vanilla, middle of the crowd category of "buyer". These are people with no obserable ambition or drive, no sense of adventure, and who probably drive Volvos because they're safe. They tend to actually buy things because they need them and who, for the most part, don't carry or even clip coupons. Drinking chocolate milk would be a bold move in their lives. So what would be next? Well, on any purchase from retail down to 75% you could be considered as having exercised an excellent buying strategy. This could be called a "bargain" and would generate great acclaim and respect from your peers. This would be considered socially acceptable behaviour and could be mentioned and even bragged on in the forums and during selected chats when actual HL personnel might not be present. Anything from 75% down to perhaps 50% means that you are starting to cut heavily into the dealers profit and this type of transaction could be termed "a steal". This is a purchase secretly envied by all those who did not find a similar purchase opportunity. This type of purchase, however, can't be publicly acknowledged as being good, so here you get private respect and public apathy. Next is the 50% to 25% range. This, of course, is not "a steal", but rather is "stealing". Here you've obviously taken advantage of someone - either the dealer who must sell to recoup at least part of his investment (and likely will not be able to make his next mortgage payment or feed his children) but who at least knows what the original cost was or an individual who may know the cost and not care (it was a gift) or who may not know the cost and who may or may not care even if he or she did know the cost (likely purchased at a garage sale - see below). At this level your peers, although still jealous of the purchase, are not even allowed to privately complement your business acumen. At best you might hear (but only secondhand) a "wow, did you hear about Bill picking up that Hatteras mold 2 for $150? Wasn't that something?" This statement allows the buyer to tell any outsider who might have accidently overheard the conversation that he was actually referring to how badly he really felt for the poor seller while knowing that his friends will understand because many of them also had $150 and were very upset that they didn't get there first. Finally, there is the category inclusive of purchases ranging from 25% to 0. This, of course, actually is second generation or first degree "stealing". However, since "stealing" has already been used we could simply call this category "garage sale-ing", meaning a totally ignominious, disgraceful, and demeaning type of activity. At this level the buyer in 95% of all documented cases will actually tell everyone that he purchased the piece at 76% of retail, thereby clasifying himself as an exceptional "bargain" hunter. By the way, this person will not even tell his or her spouse the real cost. I trust that this clarifies whether buying at less than retail is acceptable.

Now, to the mutated question of LE's vs GLOW's.

LE's - Yes
GLOW's - Yes
LL'sOM (bonus category) - Yes
Any more versions or variations, remoulds, resculptures, on the move or remaining perfectly still variants, paint patterns, sizes, views, or felt differences of Cape Hatteras - No

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77443 01/29/02 08:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 401
pierhead Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 401
Buy what you like. If you don't like them, don't buy them! Heck, you don't even have to acknowledge that they exist if you don't want to. Personally, I feel that some of GLOW are of better quality. I don't think I have more than two or three of them in my house, but that's because I don't feel like spending the money for a second version of Alcatraz, or Pensacola, or whatever the light may be. If I was a new collector, and I had a choice of buying the LE edition of St.Joeseph North Pier, or buying the GLOW version, I'd probably buy the GLOW. Face it, the quality of detail in the last few years has improved drastically. For someone who has just started collecting, it'd be tough to buy the "old ugly" one, when there's a nice new one. If you enjoy collecting, then just be proud of what you have.

Jared

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77444 01/29/02 10:56 PM
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
S
SThompson Offline
Administrator
Offline
Administrator
S
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
Quote:
If I was a new collector, and I had a choice of buying the LE edition of St.Joeseph North Pier, or buying the GLOW version, I'd probably buy the GLOW. Face it, the quality of detail in the last few years has improved drastically. For someone who has just started collecting, it'd be tough to buy the "old ugly" one, when there's a nice new one.


Thanks Jared, a perfect example of what the GLOWs are doing. Another great example would be Bolivar.



[This message has been edited by SThompson (edited 01-29-2002).]

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77445 01/30/02 12:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
flacoastie Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but, as for me give me the "ugly old one" anytime.

Rich


Rich
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77446 01/30/02 12:37 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
I am starting to think Tim may beat John to 5000 posts........ within this thread

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77447 01/30/02 02:27 AM
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 934
RezmanDale Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 934
But if the new collecor could buy the "ugly old one" at 50% you can bet he will buy it! I was able to get 11 HL's at 50% from a dealer that was dropping HL's from her shop last year. Most were GLOW's but 4 were LE's.

I agree totally with Jared "buy what you like, if you don't like them don't buy them"

Dale

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77448 01/30/02 11:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 907
CAVR Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 907
Gee....lets see, if older LEs (ugly old ones) were available at 50% off, I would pick up a few in a heartbeat...however, I don't consider: Ocracoke, Currituck, Assateague, Cape Neddick and numerous other oldies ugly. But I wouldn't mind finding an Ocracoke at 50% off. Wouldn't you?

Is this the most active thread on the forums in months or what? Imagine what a 70% sale thread could produce, but I am not promoting that.

And for the record, NO I would not buy a Mercedes (see several post back) at 50% as I would be just like all my other neighbors. But, I'll take a Jeep Cherokee or Liberty at 50%! ..hee hee

Ok...I go back to my hole now....

Christopher


-Christopher
"CAVR"
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77449 01/31/02 10:52 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
A good point has been brought up. Some GLOWS are better than the LE. I don't quite understand the why HL would make a "common" piece better than a "limited edition" piece. If you are going to release a new edition of an already retired lighthouse, then do it from a different angle or season or something which will make it different from the original LE and then release it as a "limited edition". I would rather have two or even three LE's of the same lighthouse done differently then have them produce a LE and then a GLOW. Sort of what is being done with the Fort Tompkins Lighthouse.

TheLightkeeper
Mike

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77450 01/31/02 11:14 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,801
rscroope Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,801
I know this may be blasphemy(to some) but if I started collecting Hls two years ago I might have started with GLOWs(quality and quantity available). If I started today, I might stick with Little Lights(quality, quantity and price/ and I could have them all!)But I did start in 1998; searching for the Holy Grail; enjoyed the "Hunt"; consider myself a WACKO!; and have no regrets.


LONG ISLAND BOB
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77451 01/31/02 03:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 479
shiulong Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 479
As a new collector I thought I would chime in on this subject again. I have gone for LE's old and new for the most part since I started collecting last Nov. That includes Yaquina Head (HL110), you see I have a goal of getting the original 17 at some point. We all have goals that we have set for our collections. This includes not only what we want to see in our collections, but also what we want to spend in order to get there. I will look at price but that will only be a small part of the whole picture. The LE's between Yaquina Head and the more recent editions will be evaluated on a case by case basis as to how they will fit in my total HL display. Now GLOWs vs LE's I tend to go for the LE's because of possible future value. But that is not the only requirement. Case in point, there are two examples of GLOWs that I find better than the LE's. They are the Tybee and Sanibel GLOWS. I like them much better than the LE so I will eventually get the GLOWs at some point in the future. But, before I buy the GLOWS, I will get the LE's that appeal to me first. In the end GLOW, LE, or LLOM each person must like what they have because, as in my case it is not all about money. These harbour Lights are nice to look at and they all have an interesting history to read about, old and new alike.

Chuck

------------------
bigdragon


bigdragon
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77452 02/01/02 02:16 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
Quote:
We all have goals that we have set for our collections.


Bigdragon, you make an excellent point. While it may sound impertinent to some, I'll contrast the goal oriented approach to a more randomized 'buy what you like' approach.

Before folks jump all over me for this, I'll note there is often an evolution along the path of collecting Harbour Lights. It can start with a 'buy what you like' approach, but some get into the hobby enough to think about what motivates them to collect, ask themselves if there are some models they should purchase before other models; this question can lead to an acquisition plan.

The idea of acquiring a collection according to a plan is a topic we've discussed in the past. Imo some plans are more successful than others, and I've ventured to lay out what I believe to be a rational approach that is every bit as much fun as a more random one.

If you're interested, check out these factoids wherein the topic is tackled with a somewhat analytical bent.

HL Factoid #11 part 1 - What to Buy?

HL Factoid #11 part 2 - What to Buy?

HL Factoid #11 part 3 - What to Buy?

Rgds,
__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 02-01-2002).]

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77453 02/01/02 10:37 AM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
Well this thread sure has traveled around. But to get back to the original thought; the reality of collecting and a good part of "the hunt" is finding a bargain and I don't believe for one moment that anyone will pass up a bargain, especially at "half price", if it is put in front of them.

The Lightkeeper
Mike

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77454 02/01/02 11:09 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 8,949
WackoPaul Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 8,949
Well, believe it! Because it really isn't a bargain....


[This message has been edited by engbrady (edited 02-01-2002).]


Onward to The Land of the Midnight Sun!
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77455 02/01/02 11:31 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,801
rscroope Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 6,801
Tim,
I've been waiting patiently for those "Factoids" to emerge!lol
Bob


LONG ISLAND BOB
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77456 02/01/02 01:07 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
As I stated before, I don't collect Harbour Lights for the resale or investment value.
But for those of you who do,it's real simple mathematics. You pay $100 for a lighthouse and now it is worth $200 in the market. Your investment has now increased by $100. I pay $50 for the same lighthouse and my investment has increased by $150. I am $50 ahead. If that same lighthouse falls in the market say to $75, you are now in the loss column ($25), but I am still $25 to the good.

Remember is it is not the original price of an item that determines its future value. It is supply and demand.
For example if HL made a LLOM and stopped production for whatever reason after only a thousand were produced, these would be very valuable down the road.

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77457 02/01/02 03:25 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,331
Randy Kremer Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,331
It seems to me that beauty and bargain is still in the eyes of the beholder. I like the beauty of Harbour Lights and if I can get them at a discount - I will in a heartbeat! I agree with the idea of "If you like it, buy it!" At a discount, more can be bought! If a store offers a discount to a regular customer, their way of thinking is to keep him or her coming back, and the customer probably will! Is that right or wrong? I guess that is for you to decide for yourself!

Of course this is just my opinion!

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77458 02/01/02 08:21 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A


" Well Nancy, there they go again !"


terry



[This message has been edited by tarbaby (edited 02-01-2002).]

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77459 02/01/02 08:38 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
flacoastie Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
OK, so here's a real test for those of you that don't think Harbour Lights should be sold at 50% off. I'm selling my Original Coquille River for $30.00! Any takers? Of course I'm only kidding, but, who has the guts to tell me they wouldn't buy it at that price and swallow their previous words about buying 50% off pieces. Now, in reality, what is the difference between buying my imaginary Coquille for $30.00 and buying any other real piece at 50% off. Not a thing except the ideals and thoughts of the individual purchaser. Think on it.

Rich


Rich
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77460 02/01/02 08:44 PM
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
S
SThompson Offline
Administrator
Offline
Administrator
S
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
Rich, would you take $29.00? Come on, one coastie to another.

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77461 02/01/02 10:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
flacoastie Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
Because you are a Coastie, and that's the only reason, I would take $29.99 and not a penny less.

Rich


Rich
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77462 02/02/02 12:42 AM
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
S
SThompson Offline
Administrator
Offline
Administrator
S
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
I don't know, that .99 cents might just be a deal breaker. Is it a Canadian piece?

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77463 02/02/02 01:26 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
>>Now, in reality, what is the difference between buying my imaginary Coquille for $30.00 and buying any other real piece at 50% off.<<

I don't think we're talking about the secondary market. There's not a contract between Y&A and secondary market sellers. The question was about HL dealers selling at discount.

There's no doubt about the math. Less than retail is exactly that - no question on saving money, etc. etc. The more interesting issue is what is the overall effect on HL models as collectibles. I realize its very difficult for folks to get past their own self-interested wallets.

Say it with me ... "everybody likes a deal".

Perhaps the best that can be hoped for is 'enlightened self-interest'. Consider the cummulative effect of regular discounting on HL as Collectibles. Yes - this requires one to actually think of the greater good - an obviously difficult abstraction for many. Methinks we've been here before - to take the refresher course, read part 1 of this thread.

A possible result of regular discounting is the loss of any sort of baseline price grounded on the retail market. This effectively turns the retail market into the secondary market. I'll assume its OK with those in the self-interested camp for dealers to adopt the same attitude and sell very popular low edition models for more than retail. The first round of Clamshells at $175? Do we want to go there?

__
/

[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 02-01-2002).]

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77464 02/02/02 12:39 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 7,088
mombo Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 7,088
It seems that the key words in Tim's last post are "regular discounting". Although I've never come across any of these "clearance sales" I would hazard a guess that by and large these have been generated by the issuance by HL of the 9,500 and 10,000 edition sizes. Round 'em up, move 'em out. Letting them languish on dealer shelves can't be good for the dealers or HL. Hopefully lower edition sizes will rectify the problem.

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77465 02/02/02 03:02 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,331
Randy Kremer Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,331
Amen Mombo! It goes back to supply and demand. Lower supply = more demand!

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77466 02/02/02 04:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 936
O
oseabee Offline
Administrator
Offline
Administrator
O
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 936
I buy many of the newer les but in the past have refused to buy because of blatant mistakes in the architecture 2 I can remember off the top of my head are chatham and cape florida The first piece I purchased was Chatham Whenit was taken home and placed on the shelf I kept looking at it and said to myself something is wrong then got out my pictures of it and noticed lo and behold thats not Chatham light it has 3 dormers so I reboxed it and took it back to the dealer who said to me it must be Chatham it says so here on the box then I showed him the photo of the real Chatham and he was dumbfounded.but he returned my money.It was a while before I got into HLs again but only after careful inspection and when I was about to buy Cape Florida I looked it over in the store and found the windows facing the water were wrong.I now have 115 HLs but they are all correct I consider my self a collector of HLs but also own others because as I have said before I consider myself acollector of historynot just of replicas and would like as many correct lights as possible.Bill O'Brien


oseabee
Bill O'Brien
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77467 02/02/02 10:37 PM
A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A
T.A. says...
Quote:
And if you think the lower edition sizes are gonna help overcome the fall-out of half-price sales, guess again. The lower edition sizes are the real market against which the half-price sale impacts.

Quote:
Perhaps fewer LE's would increase demand, but I don't think so. Although I would not be opposed to fewer editions per year - I understand HL believes in having something new for sale on dealer's shelves.


Randy, what about Tim`s statements?

terry

[This message has been edited by tarbaby (edited 02-02-2002).]

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77468 02/03/02 12:43 AM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 8,949
WackoPaul Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 8,949
Quote:
OK, so here's a real test for those of you that don't think Harbour Lights should be sold at 50% off. I'm selling my Original Coquille River for $30.00! Any takers? Of course I'm only kidding, but, who has the guts to tell me they wouldn't buy it at that price and swallow their previous words about buying 50% off pieces. Now, in reality, what is the difference between buying my imaginary Coquille for $30.00 and buying any other real piece at 50% off. Not a thing except the ideals and thoughts of the individual purchaser. Think on it.


I have stated it many times... I won't buy from a dealer at discount, but at no time have I said that I won't buy an original Coquille from a collector fo $30... that isn't dealer discounting, now is it?



[This message has been edited by engbrady (edited 02-02-2002).]


Onward to The Land of the Midnight Sun!
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77469 02/03/02 12:50 AM
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
S
SThompson Offline
Administrator
Offline
Administrator
S
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,156
To late Paul, it's mine if it's a Canadian, if it's not you might get it for $29.99. That's up to Rich. Regardless of Retail or Secondary any discount (or lower than perceived market) has an affect on the entire collectible.

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77470 02/03/02 12:03 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,331
Randy Kremer Offline
Super Wacko
Offline
Super Wacko
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,331
Terry,

I look at "The Lens" for example. Did it sell out because of it being unique or that there were only 4000 made? Maybe a little of both? I might be wrong, but if 10,000 of these were made, I would think all dealers would still have them on the shelves! We will never know!

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77471 02/03/02 12:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
flacoastie Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 6,227
OK, way to go. We have a real demand for this imaginary Coquille and because of this the market will handle an increase in the selling price. Supply and demand says that I can raise my price to $39.99. Quite personally I don't see the difference between clearing out the overproduction by a dealer at 50% off or clearing out a collection by an individual at below retail. Either way the market will temporarily suffer until the overproduction/collection is gone. It will then rebound as new collectors get started. Why should'nt an individual collector reap the 50% benefits? This is the same collector that will suffer the consequences if HL goes down. It all pans out in the end. Again, another opinion on this interesting subject.

Rich


Rich
Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77472 02/03/02 02:53 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 452
R
RMau Offline
Wacko
Offline
Wacko
R
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 452
This discussion is about to pass to Part 3. I wonder if any other threads have done that before? I wonder what it means, if anything.

There seems to be a majority of collectors who would take a bargain if the opportunity presented itself. I would myself. A dollar that I've earned always looks better to me when it's in my pocket than when it's in someone else's pocket. And the longer I have my dollars, the more opportunites I have to use them for things that I enjoy. Even another Harbour Light.

As for Coquille, years ago I would have taken it for $30.00 and it wouldn't have been available for Sean at $29.99. But if I had done that, maybe I wouldn't have been able to get Portland Head. So it's all choices. Make the ones that you can live with and enjoy your collection.

Rick

PS - One more post and we get to move on to Part 3!

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77473 02/03/02 04:08 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 12,331
Bob M Offline
Saint
Offline
Saint
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 12,331
What's that you say about one more post to take this to Part III?

Bob

Re: Half-Price: To Buy Or Not To Buy ? Part 2 #77474 02/03/02 06:32 PM
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300
J
JTimothyA Offline OP
Saint
OP Offline
Saint
J
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 2,300


Moderated by  Dave H, JTimothyA 

Forum Statistics
Forums39
Topics16,978
Posts184,640
Members2,579
Most Online10,155
Jan 14th, 2020
Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 1,037 guests, and 3 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SafeHarbor, Toots, Bluffhill, phtate, TexLight2022
2579 Registered Users
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.2