When was the last time you paid full retail price for a LE or a GLOW ? It has been quite a while for me. The store I deal with is always having a 10% off sale and other coupon or cash back offers. Many other dealers have 30% or 50% off. On Ebay they are giving many of them away at well below retail. Right here in our own marketplace one can buy many LE's below retail.
Sad to say but the trend here seems to indicate that Harbour Lights are quickly becoming a discounted collectible.

Hi Mike, ...I pay retail for each new HL that is introduced. I'm on autoship and there is no discounting. I do enjoy free shipping though.

There certainly are numerous great buys on eBay lately. I go hunting there every day. I just can't resist getting a great deal on HLs. Most of them will be resold at a later date. Some are being used as gifts.

Bob

The last piece I bought at full retail was the Mark Twain piece last summer. Prior to that the last one was the Reunion piece over a year ago. My dealer also offers 10% off coupons on all merchandise twice a year on purchases over a certain amount, on a lesser amount if you shop on Tuesdays for some reason. I do have a few that were bought at full value but received as gifts (thanks I.O. ) and some that were won as prizes.

Now I can't possibly afford to buy them all as some do but it is becoming increasingly difficult to justify paying full price for HL's when you know that, like a new car, by the time you get one home it's already decreased in value.

We've blamed the high edition sizes of the past, the Glows, the economy, but somehow it seems that there must be some other factor here that's causing the decline???

Certainly it can't be just HL that is experiencing this downward market trend. Is anyone familiar with other "collectibles" who can tell us if this is happening with other items?

A prime example is Crossover Island which is a fairly new piece. The last five have sold on Ebay for less than retail and there are three you can buy right now for 39.99. What is up with this? It has to a dealer selling these. Perhaps the problem isn't so much a market problem as it is a "DEALER" problem.

Unfortunately I believe it may be a sign of the times. I have been buying from the same dealer since 1997, but when I go into their store now, the dispay area for HL's has been cut to less than half of what it used to be. As soon as I hear about a light I am interested in I let them know and they order it for me. But beyond that I see only a few left on the shelves. More LLOM's than LE's.

I also visit eBay on a daily basis and it's getting harder and harder to continue to pay retail. I do get a ten percent discout in the form of a $50. gift certificate when I turn in $500. worth of sales slips. Then I go to eBay and see what I could have bought it for.

I personally will continue to pay retail and support my local dealer as much as possible, but believe me when I say, It's getting harder.

Bert

I'm with you, Bert. I do my best to support local dealers and buy pieces as frequently as possible... BUT...it is getting alot harder to ignore eBay.

With eBay, I will only buy either retired pieces or pieces that I have trouble finding around here (i.e. some LLOM's, Christmas ornaments, etc.) but it's easy to see what kind of effect eBay has on the market and some potential buyers.

By the way, Bert, I think you and I may buy from the same store (although different locations)...I use one here that has the same deal with the $50 gift certificate after $500 of purchases.

I buy from Noah's. They have always treated me very well and I just can't ignore good service. If they get only one of any light, they keep it aside until they get hold of me. They are great!

Bert

Can you name a 'collectible' these days that IS NOT being discounted in one way or another? This is not a reflection of the 'strength' of Harbour Lights but of the general economy.

John, I couldn't agree with you more. I think we are seeing a sign of the times in all collectibles. People are spending their money on more mundane and earthly things like homes, cars and family vacations rather then worldly things like collectibles, jewelry and personal items. I believe this was brought about by 9/11 and reflects back to the way things are after wartime and peace is declared. I firmly believe that things will return to normal eventually but I also firmly believe that the lighthouse craze is over and prices will eventually start inching upward but will never attain the peack values that they were in 1996-1999. My personal opinion as always.

Rich

I hope your right John but if this economy and the constant threat of war doesn't come to an end Harbour Lights is going to eventually take a hit. Retailers discounting mean collectors aren't buying and retailers might not be reordering. Bob\'s Poll is clearly showing that most collectors want fewer releases each year as well as lower sized edition numbers.

I certainly hope that Harbour Lights is strong an will weather the times!!!!

"Bob's Poll is clearly showing that most collectors want fewer releases each year as well as lower sized edition numbers."

"Most collectors" ???

As I have posted else where and will post it here.

We have to realize that here on the forums we are a minority in the Harbour Lights market. There are 1132 registered members which at best if every one purchased a new LE of a 5500 edition size represents 20% of the market. We all know that out of the 1132 there are at best about 25% of that number who post on the forums. And out of that 250 - 275 how many actually buy all of the new pieces. Maybe 25 - 30. It could be more but probably not that many more. Even if all 275 bought all of the new LE's, that is still only 5% of the market. There is another 95 % out there somewhere and they are the ones who keep Harbour Lights afloat.

The forums definitely do not represent " most collectors"

Talk about a discounted collectible, keep an eye on eBay. The rarest HL's are starting to appear on a regular basis. Castle Studio Canadian pieces are appearing on a regular basis. The never before seen on eBay lightning rod pieces are a regular thing.

It looks like a lot of old time collectors are passing the baton. Will there be enough new collectors to take up the slack? Will I run out of storage space before I run out of money? Inquiring minds on the East Coast, where it is very very cold but it isn't snowing, would like to know!

:p Bob :p

Hi All, We don't get every issue as I don't make that kind of money. Also, my collection is of lighthouses I have seen, the only way for me to manage this incurable desease called collecting. Having said that, I try to support a few local dealers who provide good service and appreciate my loyalty. Now, having only been a Harbour Lights collector for 2-3 years, I many times buy the "Bay" to add past pieces to my collection. I do first check out my dealers first though. I figure if I don't support them, they will soon be carrying another product. As far as the "market" goes, I think many just get tired of the same thing all the time and start on something else. I know many will suspend or cutail their activities when money is tight, and there are a great deal of people out of work so things are just not good right now for a great deal of people. Personally, I still have a job and God willing I will make it to retirement in a couple of years and can still support my desease. I also agree with others that we here at the forums do not represent the "market", we are the deseased ones, the one that have it bad and are proud of it

Enough, onward and upward and please pass the lights!!

:p Bob :p
I emailed one of the collectors that is selling his Canadian collection.
He said that he has a big collection that he wants to thin down and these are the only ones that there is a market for.
This is a good lesson for collectors. When you buy a retired Harbour light maybe you should buy the more expensive green water version or the one with a lighting rod or better yet a Canadian. This way if for any reason you want to sell it, most likely you could sell it for what you paid for it or hopefully even more.
Right now there are a lot of Harbour lights that you would take a big loss on if you wanted to sell.
An other price protector collectors can do is buy two digit numbers when ever possible, or at least below 500.

Nope, but I don't think Harbour Lights has reduced the number of lighthouses they are producing out of the thin blue air do you Mike?

I have also rarely ever heard a collector beg for Harbour Lights to expand the number of Lighthouses they are producing per year either?

It's farely clear most Harbour Lights collectors are happy with the decision to reduce the edition sizes below 10,000 regardless of a poll on this forum.

The economy is just to poor right now and I can't buy your theory that we may only be 5% of the collectors that there is a larger number in that other 95% that want larger edition sizes and more limited editions released each year, it doesn't add up to me. I simply don't believe it. I think Bob's Poll is still a pretty good indicator.

I also have to agree with Bob's poll about wanting smaller editions and less editions each year. While the forums members may not comprise the majority of buyers, I think we have a varied enough group that we still voted as the majority group would have. The results of the poll are just like any other poll that a marketing firm would have taken with a small group divided in the same proportions as a larger group would be.

Rich

"I also have to agree with Bob's poll about wanting smaller editions and less editions each year."

Sounds good, but can Harbour Lights survive with smaller editions and less editions. Can Harbour Lights survive with only what 5 % of the market wants?
What the market wants is more editions of the more popular lights because that is what they want to buy. They, the 95% are not interested in edition sizes or whether it is a LE or a GLOW. They also are not interested in the lesser popular lights that the real collector might be interested in. But THEY are the ones who are buying most of the product that Harbour Lights produces. Bottom line is this: Harbour Lights simply can not survive on sales to 5% of the market. The Forum members are outnumbered 19 to 1 as far as sales are concerned.

Again I can't buy it. If this is true why did Harbour Lights drop back the edition sizes of limited editions? Open Editions didn't create the market for Harbour Lights. If the 95% aren't interested in whether a lighthouse is a GLOW or LE then why is Harbour Lights producing both. Why go to the trouble of producing a Limited Edition at all? According to your theory Mike, Harbour Lights would only lose 5% of it's business while pleasing the heck out of the 95% by producing more open edition lighthouses per year.

Oh one last thing, where can I go to view the poll of the 95% that you are getting your information from? Just because they are not in the forums is absolutely no indication that they feel the way as you suggest. I also don't believe your data is supported by Harbour Lights or they wouldn't have gone to the efforts they have to reduce edition sizes. They also wouldn't have announced the decision to reduce edition sizes at the last reunion or in the Lighthouse Legacy if 95% of the collectors felt they wanted larger edition sizes. Sorry Mike, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

We should not overlook the fact that there is a possibility that more than half of the availible edition size could just be sitting in dealers stock rooms or on their shelves.

There are only so many autoships, then the rest are on dealers shelves or in their back rooms waiting to be purchased. If Harbour Lights only buys a new release in groups of a thousand or so, how many do you think each dealer will initially have for sale?

Just because an edition size is 5500, that doesn't mean the 5500 pieces are sold right away. Then comes the questions of how many are autoships, how many are bought by collectors, and how many are bought by tourists.

A piece may retire forcibly or naturally but that doesn't mean it's no longer availible on dealer's shelves.

Bob

Ok, I had to run and get some dinner. Mike there are some points that I do agree with. There are going to be lighthouses that have a regional following that will demand edition sizes in excess of 5,500 lighthouses such as some of the recent Florida releases. I also agree that not every lighthouse will have a demand reaching 5,500.

In all I don't believe Harbour Lights can continue down the path they started if they become simply a better version of Scassi. The Limited Editions are the backbone of Harbour Lights and the Limited Edition Collectors will expect more new releases, even releases of lighthouses that are lesser known.

Harbour Lights did quite well when they first started. They had edition sizes of 5500 and also did not bring out the large number of pieces that they have been for the last 5 years or so. The problem with the secondary market is the GLOWS and large edition sizes. Well, we will probable never get rid of the GLOW(much to my dismay)but we can correct the other problem(smaller edition sizes) and maybe also limit the number of editions each year. HL has diversified by having the Guardians, LLOM, Anchor Bay, Hot Air Balloons and (ugh)GLOWS so they do have other income. It's time the limited editions were brought back to what they started out to be and that is LIMITED. If the 95% want to buy more limited editions, they should start with the limited editions already produced so they don't have to be forcibly retired and then concentrate on the limited editions that they are missing from their collections that have already retired and are readily available on the secondary market at reasonable(cheap) prices. By the time these 95% get done with all this the HL limited editions will be back where they used to be before the large edition sizes and many edition issues. And last but not leats, I also would like to see what poll or polls are being used to come up with this 95% number. Seems to me that the majority of respondants to the forum polls seem to favor less editions and smaller editions. Why isn't this 95% silent majority being heard from?

Rich

Absolutely, there are power dealers in Florida, Maine, California, North Carolina and others that start out with large initial inventories. I can remember directing collectors to a Dealer that had Alcatraz for almost two years after it retired. It was selling for as much as $225 and it was still available in bulk, at retail.

"If the 95% want to buy more limited editions, they should start with the limited editions already produced "
This is just the point, most the 95% (the rest of the market) are not really interested in the LE's being produced this year. If you look at the respones of Forum members, the response was not all that great.
]http://www.lighthousekeepers.com/cgi-bin/forumscgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000495]

I believe that a majority of today's market, not the market of ten years ago, would rather buy a Portland Head, Cape Neddick, Cape Hatteras, or a SE Block island piece than what is being offered this year. On the other hand the real collector would rather buy something different. But as you can see by all the collections being sold on the secondary market and even right here in our own Marketplace that the real collector is diminishing in numbers.

"But as you can see by all the collections being sold on the secondary market and even right here in our own Marketplace that the real collector is diminishing in numbers.

--------------------
The Lightkeeper
Mike"

The above is a very true statement and reflects the attitude of some collectors who are bailing out because the fun or thrill is gone. Then there is the financial issue, display issue, and storage issue.

The future of Harbour Lights limited edition collecting lies with the ability to generate interest in this line so that new people will reach into their pockets and purchase limited editions through HL dealers and the secondary market.

Bob

"The future of Harbour Lights limited edition collecting lies with the ability to generate interest in this line so that new people will reach into their pockets and purchase limited editions through HL dealers and the secondary market."

I agree Bob, but it is going to be awfully hard to find these new people without producing some of the more popular lighthouses. I don't think they are all too interested at this point in the less popular lights.

This is a case in point that I am trying to make about Harbour Lights being a discounted collectible. This was just posted yesterday on our own Markerplace Forum.

Please note this is by no means an attack on the seller, I am just using this as an example of what has happened to the Harbour Lights market.

"I have the following lights for sale. All the paperwork included, never been displayed. Shipping is $10.00 for the first light, $3.00 for each after. If you have any questions please feel free to e-mail me a jdengler@usaor.net. Thanks for looking."


174 Ida Lewis Rock, RI 2991 $41.00
195 Jeffrey's Hook, NY 5449 $39.00
195 Jeffrey's Hook, NY 5450 $39.00
204 Yaquina Bay, OR 4476 $45.00
204 Yaquina Bay, OR 4474 $45.00
209 Cape Florida FL 6886 $46.00
220 St. Marks, 4853 $44.00
221 Dunkirk, NY 1874 $41.00
235 La Coruna, Spain 1554 $38.00
236 Old Mission Point, MI 1561 $41.00
239 Sapelo, GA 1561 $36.00
246 Haig Point, SC 1467 $44.00
249 Eagle Bluff, WI 1427 $38.00
251 Fairpoint Harbor, Ohio 1414 $40.00
253 Fort Gratiot, MI 1413 $38.00
260 East Point, NJ 1272 $36.00
261 New Dungeness, Wa. 1272 $31.00
266 Cleveland, Ohio 1255 $38.00 SOLD
267 Charleston, SC 1245 $40.00
403 South East Block D327 $29.00
403 South East Block D328 $29.00
403 South East Block D485 $29.00
405 Montauk, NY A1669 $33.00
406 New London Ledge A3399 $32.00
406 New London Ledge A3417 $32.00
410 Cape Neddick, Maine A4551 $29.00 SOLD
410 Cape Neddick, Maine A2355 $29.00 SOLD
422 Bolivar Point, Texas A2098 $38.00
425 Assateague, VA A1602 $35.00
426 Grosse Point, Ill A1521 $36.00
426 Grosse Point, Ill A1522 $36.00
427 Coquille Light, OR A1508 $33.00
428 Cape May, NJ A1936 $32.00 SOLD
430 Pensacola, Florida A1373 $36.00
430 Pensacola, Florida A1374 $36.00
431 West Quoddy Head Maine A1256 $27.00
431 West Quoddy Head Maine A1257 $27.00
432 Cape Florida FL A1204 $33.00
432 Cape Florida FL A1205 $33.00
433 Jupiter Inlet, Florida A1204 $30.00
434 St. Joseph Pier, MI A1151 $38.00
435 Pemaquid, MA A1186 $33.00
435 Pemaquid, MA A1187 $33.00 SOLD
707 Old Field Point, NY 6695 $50.00
708 East Quoddy Light, Canada 2207 $50.00
708 East Quoddy Light, Canada 8596 $50.00

We are starting to see more and more of what is listed above. I have talked with many people who only collect what they have visited. I love the Cape Romain piece and have wanted it made for years. I'll use it as an example. It's location is very remote and most have never/will never see it. Using that as an example, many will not buy it because they might never get the chance to view it like a few of us did last fall! (Plus the gift shop on the island was closed the day we were there! LOL!) As new pieces come out, fewer and fewer are ones that are easy to get to. How many people have been to Portland and Hatteras compared to a light on a remote island? I really think this hurts sales in many instances.

Of course lesser known lights aren't going to be big sellers and that's why Harbour Lights has reduced the edition sizes from 10,000. You can't have 10+ limited edition versions of Hatteras, Portland Head etc. or you might as well make them all open editions, the kiss of death for Harbour Lights, imho.

The list above from the marketplace, is it from a current Harbour Lights Retailer? If it's not it is just an example of a speculator that purchased unwisely and is getting rid of what they can. As far as the GLOWs go, they are going to depreciate the minute you buy one. They are open edition giftware, what possible return could you expect?

imho

Could be the left over inventory of a former dealer.

I'm still buying doubles, triples, etc. of various HL's. I should add that I buy them at deeply discounted prices. Some are at dealer close-outs, and some are on eBay.

I know I can always recover what I paid when I buy them at low prices. I jut hope that someday I'll be able to turn at least a small profit on them and make someone happy with a deal.

Bob

"I know I can always recover what I paid when I buy them at low prices. I just hope that someday I'll be able to turn at least a small profit on them and make someone happy with a deal."


But you will probably sell them for less than issue price and still make a profit. Further evidence that Harbour Lights are becoming a discounted collectible and that the "lighthouse market" is on a downward trend.

Folks don't get me wrong. I don't have an axe to grind with Harbour Lights. They have the best lighthouse product on the market and I really like the ones that I have. Perhaps they need to offer club members some kind of incentive to purchase more new LE's which in turn might help stimulate the market. Something like purchase five new LE's in a year and receive a special edition Christmas ornament only for those who purchased the five or something like that.

Here's an incentive from Harbour Lights and it started January 1.

Purchase new full size pieces (LE, GLOW) from authorized retailers and register your purchases with Harbour Lights adn you could win some great prizes. Check the latest Legacy for details.

A couple of our regulars have won what we consider the top prize: Pick a lighthouse for Harbour Lights to make. Others have won APs.

The "register & win" contest is a great incentive but it does favor new collectors. Like myself, many collectors are on autoship and may only receive a couple of new arrivals during the contest time period.

The opportunities offered through this contest are super, especially the right to name a new HL of your choice. The A/P's are a great prize also. I would love to win any of the prizes offered!

Bob

The incentive should be to buy what you like and ENJOY the purchase that you just bought. Offering a buy 5 and get 1 free sounds like a department store gimmick. These gimmicks are exactly what is hurting the HL secondary market. If a collector is really a true collector they will buy without the gimmick and be happy they found the piece they were looking for. Buying extras of some lights for future reselling is a way of life and is commonplace with all collectibles. I have been doing this for years to keep my addition for Harbour Lights going. The problem is a lot of collectors will buy them cheap and instead of holding them or even selling them at retail price, will turn around and sell them at a few bucks over what they paid. While this is free enterprise and they have the right to do this, it hurts both the retail and secondary market. Collectors buying these discounted pieces thinks this is the norm and expect all Harbour Lights to be this cheap. Also, if you will notice the glut of GLOWS that is being offered and how their prices are almost the same as the limited editions, you can imagine how this helps the secondary market.

Rich

I keep hearing how the secondary market is hurting. IMHO from the prices that I have seen both LE's and GLOWS selling for (in retail stores, on Ebay , and in our own marketplace), I don't believe that there is much (if any) of a secondary market left at this time.

That's exactly what I am getting at. There is not much of anything left so a gimmick like buy 5 and get 1 free would be another nail in thye coffin. And who would these help, the people that are not true collectors but are the speculators looking to get something cheaper then it already is.

Rich

Rich, who are you quoting the buy 5 and get 1 free from? This is not something Harbour Lights is sponsoring.

Could someone post the dates of the "Register and Win". I'm sure you don't have to be a Society Member to qualify do you? I don't have a LL yet and I would like to qualify. Odds are the LL will arrive after the dates of the contest.

Thanks

Register & Win: purchase a full size HL from 1/1 to 3/31/03. Send in registration with proof of purchase from an authorized HL dealer, postmarked by 4/5. One entry per lighthouse purchased, enter as often as you buy.

In the past John put a link to a form to use on the HL page, but couldn't find it yet.

Dave

Here's that page. Not a form, just information and instructions:


www.HarbourLights.com/register_win.htm

Mike had mentioned an incentive in his January 17 post that maybe a buy five and get one free might be a good incentive. This is where I mentioned it as a gimmick.

Rich

The post did not not say buy five and get one free it said:
"Something like purchase five new LE's in a year and receive a
-special edition Christmas ornament-
only for those who purchased the five or something like that.
The one free would not be a LE but a small piece like an ornament that would be only for those who purchased the five LE's. It would not be available for retail sale, thus also making it very collectible.

I find this discussion to be very interesting. Clearly there are several factors that account for the discounted pricing at this time. The general economy, limited space, tight income and HL's decision to diversify and expand edition size to name only a few. IMHO HL's poor marketing decisions struck a lethel blow at the reputation and integrity of the company. I believe that folks began to look askance at them and reflected on the long-term opportunities associated with HL. I am delighted they have reduced edition size and I hope they continue to pay more attention to their core LE business.

I do agree that some kind of incentive for collectors to buy from dealers is necessary. But it would have to be done in the right way. Definitely no buy 5 and get something free.
The offer that HL has from Jan 1 until the end of March is good but apparently it just isn’t enough. We need something that would make collectors buy from a dealer at full retail price. I pay full retail for mine but I have a very good incentive, I get matching double digits.
But for the collector who’s dealer has nothing special in numbers there is no incentive except it is convenient.
As more and more people become comfortable with ebay, even that will disappear. It comes down to why pay full price from a dealer when you can buy the same lighthouse from ebay for 30 to 50 percent less.
How about adding to the register and win idea.
Each collector that sends in receipts for ten full size Harbour lights for the current year will get a special society piece. (Of course they would have to be a society member). A special society piece to recognize Harbour lights most dedicated collectors. This LE would be the first 1000 or less and would be painted differently from the other society pieces and come in a different box. How about a lighting rod and green water? This would give our dedicated collectors something special and a reward for staying loyal to the HL dealers. Yes the auto shipment collectors would get their same number and the special edition.
This would cost Harbour lights hardly anything to do, but would give their main collectors something special. Also this would be an incentive for collectors to buy from a dealer than ebay.

Interesting idea Daniel! Any time I could get a pc. with both a lightning rod and green water just gets me that much closer to HL heaven.

This should not be happening from an Authorized Harbour Lights Dealer, unless they are dropping the line or closing their doors. If an Authorized Dealer that currently sells Harbour Lights and has plans to continue to do so is selling them 30-50% off you should do us all a favor and give Harbour Lights a call.

If it is a collector that purchased them and is dumping them well that's just part of collectibles, sometimes you make a good investment and sometimes you don't. Nothing you can do about that.

I like your idea Daniel. I continue to buy from the same dealer and have been since 1994-5. I forget as I'm getting up in age and the mind is going. I do so because they treat me right and always take care of me. Loyalty begats loyalty. I NEVER win anything so the Register and Win contest is great and I do register but never expect to win. Something like Daniel's idea would be great as I'm on autoship and would never have a problem coming up with 10 pieces a year. If you really wanted to boost LE sales you could specify LE only pieces. This might boost their sales and keep people from buying off Ebay to save a few bucks. Then the collector that wants this special edition piece could get it and the collector that wants to buy off Ebay to save some money would have a choice.

Rich

I also like Daniel's idea. One thing we might keep in mind though. The collector who buys only on Ebay and THEN buys the special piece at a REDUCED price on Ebay. Look what happens to the gold pieces. It doesn't take long to find it on Ebay soon after it is won. - Joe

I think Danoel's idea is terrific too. This would be a wonderful way to benefit the COLLECTOR !!

How about a monthly drawing for a artist proof? One entry for every piece purchased @ retail.