I'm not surprised- I even made a post about taking bets on how long it would take- but we have another topic that suddenly doesn't exist.

Earlier today there was a topic in the General forum with the title below

Collectible store retired lighthouses 05-28-2003 The General Forum

It no longer exists. Here's what was posted there-

"Visited with the owners of a very special collectible store last week, and they are reducing their HL "retired lighthouses" to 40% off.

Contact: (I've left that particular bit of info out so that this thread might not go missing also)

for retired pieces.

They are awaiting your call!

Hope you find that special lighthouse! "

I then put a post making the comment to the effect "I'll take bets as to how long it takes for this thread to be among the missing"

Bright Eyes responded that the dealer in question had spoken to her Rep and was told it was allright to do this.

Then the thread was among the missing.

I'm not surprised, but I am still disturbed at this being done.

I'm especially disturbed now due to the fact that many of us on the Forums donated money to keep it running and for it's improvements. I think this puts a different spin on things, but I could be wrong

Anyone else have any thoughts in this matter?

I believe this is the proper place to discuss this topic, but I won't be surprised if it becomes among the missing also.

Dennis

I do not know what happened to the thread - I never saw it. However (if I recall correctly) messages promoting dealers who discount HL models may be subject to disappearance, especially if the message mentions the dealer's name.

cf. JC's note in this thread for a rationale. There is a message explicity mentioning that removal of such msgs. has and may continue to happen - but I haven't been able to locate it.

Only original thread starters, the moderator of the forum where the msg. is/was located, and saints may delete an entire thread by deleting the first msg. in the thread.

T

I'm guilty. I deleted the thread. I apologize.

It's YOUR forums, not mine anymore. If you want to post dealers going out of business, dealers having a 'clearance sale', etc. I won't delete them anymore. (I will still cringe, but I won't delete.)

However, I do DOUBT very much that a Harbour Lights Rep told a dealer that they could go ahead and discount the product. No doubt he may have expressed sympathy for the dealers' predicament.

I re-read the threads that Tim linked to and the continuations and recall now the very heated discussions we've had in the past over this issue.

Mary, if you'll repost your information, I'll keep my Administrative powers away from it and ask others to do so also.

I recently raised the question with Harbour Lights about gaining back the link to the Collector Forums, however, I think this issue is moot now.

I never saw the post in question. Is this becoming one of those separation of church and state things?

The CF promotes interest in lighthouses and also collecting Harbour Lights. If we can help a member of the forums find a special piece at a special price, then we should do it. The purchase of a few discounted HL's only leads to the future purchase of HL's at retail. It's called collecting. Once you set the hook, they're caught.

What's more important, helping a fellow CF member get a good buy at a dealer who supported Harbour Lights products for as long as they could, or send that person to eBay to satisfy their collecting needs?

Bob

To add a thought to an interesting discussion: I spoke with someone at the store yesterday before the thread was removed. This is a store where the new owners bought an existing business with the inventory. Among the inventory was a large number of guess what? 9500 and 10000 edition Harbour Lights. The dealer would like to continue to be a Harbour Lights dealer but has a large number of lights that no one wants. Should they try and sell them at a discount to move them out of the stockroom, dump them on E-Bay (as many many other dealers have) or drop the line?
This appears to be a problem that the Y & A helped to cause when they tried to expand, should they not give the dealers some slack in helping to resolve it? With the loss of many old time dealers, the policy of not allowing discounts at all may drive all the dealers away. And everyone will lose in the end.
As for the link from HL.com to the forums, I think HL is losing a great deal more than they are gaining. In not including their most vocal cheerleaders, they are helping to kill the "buzz" about this great product.

I agree with BobM and Jim on this one. The forums are here to help each other to promote HL products and also to help others find special light they are looking for. I have seen HL's on "The New Market Place" sell for less than retail and that seems to be OK because in most cases they are sold by someone other than a dealer.

I have gone to my dealers and have picked up lights that I would normally have passed up at retail, but can't seem to leave them there when they are reduced by 50% because they've been sitting on the shelve for a year or more.

I think it great for all of us to be able to pass that information on to the forum so that if someone is interested, WHY NOT!

Bert

I for one feel that it is still John’s Forum. The collectors donated money to John to help him pay for the rising cost of the Forum. We did not buy shares into the Forum but donated to it. I feel that it is totally up to John if he feels that something isn’t in good taste and removes it.

I feel like the message about the dealer discounting Harbour wasn’t fair to other dealers and definitely shot down any hope of the Forum ever being connected to Harbour Lights again.

The fact that a Rep said that is Okay for the dealer to discount doesn’t represent Harbour Lights approval. I am not saying this about all reps but some are not known for their scruples. Many of the HL dealers have a flood of harbour Lights because the Rep is a good salesman and convinced the dealer to buy many extras. I have seen this happen several places, especially when a new owner comes into play. The other dealers that this has happened to just quietly put up a 40% discount sign and took care of the problem in house. In about three to four months the extras were cleared out. They didn’t have to advertise. The discount was the advertising.

I don’t think it is appropriate for HL dealers to discount on this Forum no mater what reason. I feel that John was right in his original decision and I hope that the market place doesn’t end up being a place for dealers to unload extras.

Daniel,

I'd like to use your reply to answer some points brought up.


"I for one feel that it is still John’s Forum. The collectors donated money to John to help him pay for the rising cost of the Forum. We did not buy shares into the Forum but donated to it. I feel that it is totally up to John if he feels that something isn’t in good taste and removes it."

I don't disagre with this in principle- I should have chosen my words better. I don't think we have the right to micomanage, but I do think we have the right to be consulted as to how we wish to deal with certain contentious subjects.


"I feel like the message about the dealer discounting Harbour wasn’t fair to other dealers and definitely shot down any hope of the Forum ever being connected to Harbour Lights again."

I'd agree with this thought except for one big problem- we were told that we lost the link from the HL site due to sales in the Marketplace by individuals that were below retail- not dealers.

Along with this I have a problem with the fact that all of the sales by individuals and the notices about 50% off sales posted on the Forums over the entire time I've been on the forums probably don't equal the number of items dumped on eBay by authorized dealers- you see the same seller week after week listing both the newest and many of the older items at less than retail.

It seems to me that HL must have some idea (or should) who these dealers are. It's apparent that they have done nothing to these people who have broken their contract with HL.

On the other hand we on the Forums who have no contract with HL are penalized because some dealers complained about the Marketplace. Do you think that's right?


"The fact that a Rep said that is Okay for the dealer to discount doesn’t represent Harbour Lights approval. I am not saying this about all reps but some are not known for their scruples."

You are probably right about this- HL probably has no knowledge or gave approval for this particular sale. It's probable that the Rep made some statement that could be interpreted that way. We actually have no idea what transpired- only third hand info, at best.


"Many of the HL dealers have a flood of harbour Lights because the Rep is a good salesman and convinced the dealer to buy many extras. I have seen this happen several places, especially when a new owner comes into play. The other dealers that this has happened to just quietly put up a 40% discount sign and took care of the problem in house. In about three to four months the extras were cleared out. They didn’t have to advertise. The discount was the advertising."

So if I understand this point- discounting is OK if you do it quietly, but is wrong if you let too many people know about it

"I don’t think it is appropriate for HL dealers to discount on this Forum no matter what reason. I feel that John was right in his original decision and I hope that the market place doesn’t end up being a place for dealers to unload extras."

I do agree with this statement- to a point. It wasn't a dealer who posted about the discount. It was a fellow collector who thought she was doing a favor for her fellow collectors.

I do hope that the Marketplace does not become a dumping ground for dealers. I don't think that would happen though- they have eBay for that with much more defined and enforceable rules

I think that the decision to unilaterally remove any mention of sales is wrong. I do think that guidelines need to be used and enforced. I also think that people are due an explanation when things are removed from the Forums.

I should have been more specific with my post about this topic when it first appeared. I should have sent an e-mail to Bright Eyes as to why I said what I did. she obviously was unaware of the previous situations deling with this subject.

It's not easy being fair to all involved. I do not want to be ufair to the collectors, the dealers, the company or to John and the others who work hard on these Forums and other things connected with HL and Lighthouses in general.

I do greatly appreciate all that John has done over the years here with the Forums.

Dennis

I seem to recall a posting fairly recently that mentioned a dealer going out of business who was discounting his inventory of HL's. That post was not removed and received replies by forum members that they had made purchases from said dealer based on the original posting.

Whether you agree or disagree with dealer discounting, I think we have to agree with the fact that the 9500 and 10,000 edition sizes have caused the majority of the problem.

The dealers didn't create this problem and now many of them are stuck with a lot of lighthouses. Many of those who don't discount to reduce their inventory are dropping the line completely. This is bad for HL and the consumer.

RE: 9,500 and 10,000 edition sizes.

With the June introductions, the largest limited edition lighthouse size is now 5,500. A few under that -- Including one at 3,000.

And the Christmas edition will be just 5,000 -- same as it was in 1995 when the first one was introduced.

WOW!

What responses this posting has brought. This is good!

When visiting this collectible store, it was mentioned by the NEW owners, that they had several retired lighthouses, and they were wanting to reduce their stock. The end result was to have a "retired lighthouse sale", and all of these lighthouses were 40% off. The question was asked, "is it ok to do this", and the answer was "yes", the rep said it was ok.

So the kindness was extended to post on the boards that this store was having a sale. There have been other postings in the past, in regards to the same topic, and didn't see a problem, and thought it was a favorable jesture to do.

I have done collectible business with this store for many years, not just lighthouses, but Snow Village, Christmas ornaments, other knick-knacks, etc., and wanted to extend my support. Especially with the way the economy is, and with so many dealers deleting this collectible and others from their shelves, I wanted to help.

Now I feel that I should get my "demerit card" out, and get points deducted for bad behavior. Or be sent to the principal's office!!! (Yes, spent my school years in a Catholic school, and those NUNS kept us gals in line)! Oh my!

This posting has kept the keyboards alive for awhile!


"Peace goes to all that enters!"

This has always been a contentious issue within the forums. I believe in the disclaimer statement at the top of each page within the forum. This is a service to collectors. It has no ties to HL. Every post reflects the opinions and ideas of the individual.

Based on said disclaimer, if a person sees a store having a sale and wants to let his fellow collectors know, there should not be a problem with it. This is a collector to collector action.
The store itself has nothing to do with the post.

Finally, lets all be realistic. HL knows, as does any collectible line marketer, that retail outlets have in-store clearance sales to clear old merchandise periodically. It is better for all concerned that old merchandise be sold. It might help the store stay in business. It may create a new lover of the collectible line. These are both win-win situations for a collectible line.

Well, as the disclaimer states, these are my opinions. Fire away.

I think is a great point. I agree with this viewpoint. We on the forums do not represent HL. We do however have great respect for them, but we don't always agree and that's the point of the disclaimer

Of course the last line can sometimes not be correct- dealers are people too, they can read the forums and know we read them and they can ask one of their customers to post about their sale- this is the part that makes it harder to be fair.

Dennis

I want someone to explain to me how we are to tell apart a collector posting from a dealer posting... "a dealer they know is marking down their Harbour Lights."

We have not allowed dealers to post in the Marketplace and I feel that this should continue... this is a Collectors Forum not a Dealers Forum.

Like someone once said... "If it ain't broke why fix it!"

And what if the dealer is also a collector? The dealer should be allowed to post in the forums like everyone else. Maybe to make it fair, he should not be allowed to post in the marketplace only. A good example is Terry of the Bronze Lady. He is fair and above board in all his dealings that I have observed and also been a part of. I enjoy hearing from him as a knowledgeable dealer. Had it not been for Terry posting that he had extra gold bridges, I would not have been able to get one as I was working that day and couldn't spend the time to call in. Also, what about the auction taking place at Collector's World. They are also fair and above board people from what I know and have heard about them. I could go on and list many dealers that I have talked to that are also collectors and have great knowledge when it come to Harbour Lights. I would like to see some of this knowledge placed on these Forums. We need new blood on the Forums to keep it alive because it seems like the majority of the new members either are too timid to post or do not want to post. I think to say dealers are not allowed to post, and that this practice should continue, is unfair to the dealers and collectors. This is my opinion and may not be shared by others, but, this is how I feel.

I have a question! When a dealer buys from HL, it is my assumption that they do not pay what we call the retail price. I am sure that they have quite a bit of room from what they pay to what is retail in order to make a profit. Therefore, if they wish to sell for less than retail and make less of a profit while clearing their shelves of items that have sat there for a while. WHY NOT? I am not advocating Dealers selling in the MARKET PLACE. I am saying that if I know of such a sale that may be able to assist another collector to acquire a piece they want, either at retail, above retail, or below retail. Then I think we should at least have the opportunity of passing that information on and let whoever wants to contact them decide if the price is fair or not. I have purchased HL's for more than retail and less than retail. It was my decision. Some I passed up as to expensive, and some I bought because I got a deal. I wasn't offended, was anyone else?

Bert

A few years ago, I used to buy all my HL's from a dealer in Salt Lake. We used to talk quite often about the state of HL's when the edition size rose to 10,000. He couldn't find enough buyers for his inventory. The other problem seemed to be that the most popular lights had already been released as a limited edition and the new releases people weren't as familiar with so they were slow to sale.

Bottom line: the dealer is no longer in business.

The dealer let me see his order sheet from HL's, and the price they paid was 1/2 the price they sold for at retail. So...if a dealer has a 40% off sale, they are still make a 10% profit. I'm sure that is not enough to keep a business profitable, but at least the store is not losing money when they offer 40% off.

There is only one dealer left in Salt Lake that sells more than the Little Lights. A few years back there were five in the Salt Lake area.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I have to agree that if a forum member is helped out finding a good deal, I say great for them!

Just checking your math, Lorie...

If a $100 piece sells at 40% off, it would sell for $60. The dealer paid $50 so his profit is $10 or 20% of what he paid, not 10%. Of course if he sold it for $100, his profit would be 100%.

Dealers sign an agreement to sell at or near the suggested retail price. This is common with many, many products.

It's what allows small mom and pop stores to compete with big operations. And, in the long run, and given good economic times, it assures that the value of your collection is strong.

Bert,

The answer to this part of your post is fairly simple- the contract that they sign with Harbour lights not to do just that.

Of course, it doesn't seem to be heartily enforced by either side- note the same people selling multiples of just about any HL product on eBay- some before they actually even are officially out.

I think the partial reson for this is that HL is a busines and as such understands that they inadvertantly caused a portion of their dealers problem by raising the number in an edition to 10,000.

My problem is that we here are being held to a higher standard than the official retailers are. We are small potatoes compared to what goes on every week on ebay.

I don't have aproblem with letting my fellow collectors know of a bargain to be had.

Dennis

Yeah, this topic has been chatted up before. I don't have real strong feelings on it one way or the other (not sure what I've said in the past).

One the one hand there are issues of the impact on dealers who don't discount. Yet, the surfeit of 9500 & 10000 edition pieces has to be dealt with some how - HL sure ain't buyin' 'em back. I suppose there is a difference between ridding oneself of excess inventory that doesn't sell and general dumping of new product on e-Bay.

The HL marketplace has changed considerably over the last several years. One might even make a case that Y&A has discounted (commoditized?) their own line with the introduction of all the different non-Limited Editions. The same rationale used for GLOWs - that "they bring more people to become collectors" - can be applied to discounted LEs.

From a forum admin perspective it might be nice if msgs about sales or discounted pieces stay localized rather than spread all over. One person's 'helpful information' is another person's 'advertisement'. I'm disinclined to see "Big Sale" posting all over the place simply because its pleasing to have some spots where you can get away from that.

But not in the Marketplace - let's keep that for people rather than stores or vendors. Don't think we need 'The Bargain Bin' forum either. Hmmmm... perhaps the 'Secondary Market' forum - after all that covers items priced at other than retail. Doesn't really matter as long as we kinda don't spread these "ads" or "informative messages" everywhere.

Good - let it remain moot. Y&A has been too prissy about this link, imo. If we wanted to spank 'em we could make up "Dis-connected Collector" badges for the next regional, but I say just let it drop. When they feel they need this venue, they'll come asking.

The wind lifts, the fog shifts,
T

Since Harbour Lights dumped us why does this site have to be for just Harbour Lights? It could be for all lighthouses. The link below could connect all lighthouse manufacturers not just HL. There are still two or three Lighthouse manufacturers out there. I hear that Lefton is getting back in the picture.

Of course Give Harbour Lights a two week Notice.
Call it an "Or Else Notice"

I think Harbour Lights need to wake up and see all the possible side effects of their actions.

The only problem about opening it up to all lighthouse manufacturers is before long we will see postings on lighthouse coffee cups, lighthouse thermometers, etc. I collect Harbour Ligthts only and if I wanted to talk about other lighthouse items I could find them on other web sites.

Rich
I felt it should be done for an eye opener to Harbour Lights. Also many collectors are expanding to other lighthouse related items like post cards. And a place is allocated for post cards. It would be nice to have a place to post all other lighthouse collectables. It would have its on folder called "other lighthouses". Like how the Anchor Bay folder covers all areas of Anchor Bay except more. Everything would be in the one folder from buying / selling other lighthouses and accessories to comments on them.

Rich you are right it shouldn’t be aloud to intermingle with are beloved Harbour Lights.
Harbour Lights could stop this by just making the Collectors Forum its official Harbour Lights Collectors Forum.

By the Way has anyone notice the dealer’s sales with Harbour Lights picking up since the Forum was dropped. In my opinion the sales are worst. Two dealers in our area dropped the line this year. My dealer told me if it wasn’t for me and one other collector buying their auto shipment that they would drop Harbour Lights. That dealer use to order from 12 to 20 of every lighthouse. Now they only purchase two-auto shipment allotment.

Harbour Lights didn't remove the link because they wanted to punish us for anything. They did it because some of their dealers requested it be done. Apparently, some dealers felt threatened by discounted pieces being offered and some CF members were passing the word where discounted HL's could be purchased.

Don't ever think that HL doesn't appreciate the opinions and views expressed at the CF. Remember they must maintain the delicate balance of good relations between dealers and collectors. Without dealers, there is no Harbour Lights. Without collectors, there is no Harbour Lights.

I would also prefer that this site remain focused on HL's and actual lighthouses. I can't see the need of soliciting traffic from other manufacturers.

I'm strictly an HL collector.

Bob

All things as they may, I lost the only dealer within 100 miles due to his dissatsifaction with sales.

One can pick and harp about Harbor Lights/Y&A, but they are first and foremost a business aimed at making money for the corporation. They are not in the business of making friends, they are in the business of making money, and even when they do it with a smile to us, It's still just a Business Grin!

If Harbour Lights is so concerned about pieces being discounted why don't they go after the dealers who are selling on Ebay and I believe that there are quite a few who are.

Business is Business ....... Simple :rolleyes: