My dealer will only get one of these and it is creating quite a delimma. Are any of you having this problem? Resentment is building.

Moby

Hi Moby,

So far I haven't heard anything specific, but I'm not surprised. Will you be able to get the one from your dealer? I think we should all try to work together with this one and inform each other quickly if we hear of any that have not been claimed yet. I'm afraid the same thing is going to happen with Eldred Rock. I put my request in for one quickly, but I am not confident that I will be able to get one.

Joanne

If we all send our "extra" sightings to R@R, there should not be a problem in finding one for everybody who needs one. I am still seeing Panama sets around this area, and I think, at least in the shortrun, there will be extras to share.
Jim
Johnson

I totally agree Jim, I think the problem is more of one for the dealer who knows what they are and has several customers wanting one. I think that there will be extras floating around at stores that haven't a clue as to what that frezzy thing is supposed to be.

I think that the 6500 number would have probably been a better number, but I hope that HL doesn't do what it did a couple of years ago and jump to 10,000. I think the 6500 number seems to statisfy both the dealers and the collectors. They are supposed to be limited editions, after all!

SaintWackoPaul'
Keep the Flame

Yep. Decrease supply, increase demand. It's great to see that Harbour Lights are "hot" again.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a purpose to creating a frenzy or lighting a fire in those who would intended all along to purchase the piece. By limiting the edition to 4,000, there will be dedicated HL's enthusiasts who are not going to get one for their collection. I think the idea should be to create a frenzy of new collectors. An edition size of 5,000 would have been more fair to those of us who have already spent thousands of dollars in their collections. In less than 17 months, I have purchased over 80 limited editions and now I may not have the opportunity to purchase a fresnel lens. I must tell you, it doesn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling. I think that the purpose of the fresnel lens should be to enable a collector to have a very special addition to his collection rather than have a person buy one and try to sell it for double or triple his money. These should be treasures not investments. I know that's going to rock some boats.

Joanne


[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 07-11-2000).]

I think there will be plenty around for awhile, even if they are initially in short supply. Some hoarders might create an initial quick runup in price, but when that happens, you'll see them coming out of the closets on eBay and the price should come back down. Then even more extras might appear on R@R. If Panama, Hillsboro and other recent hot intros are any indication, you might be able to get one of these at or even below retail a year from now. I hope I'm wrong, but that's been the pattern.

If you want to lock in one now at retail (recommended), start calling around to some of the other retailers, especially the larger ones. I'm sure that somebody out there still has one unspoken for. You might want to focus on retailers in, say, Nebraska or Oklahoma, where not everyone knows and cares what a Fresnel lens is.

------------------
-Art

You can skip Lighthouse Depot. I called today to ask if they had any unspoken for (for Moby, not for me). None left of whatever quantity they will receive.

Once these start shipping to dealers (expected to happen in August), then call around. Some people have their name in at several places, planning to take the first one that arrives and passing on the others. So those will free up.

Try using the dealer search feature and pick some dealers in more remote places and call them.

I agree with Joanne if HLs get hard to get.
I'm a new collector of 4 months and have 14 already with more on the way. If they make small quanties and harder to get I think they will chase the collectors away instead of geting more to collect these great pieces.
Larry

We haven't heard the would be difficult to get. As soon as we heard they would be sold, we called our dealer who promised to reserve us one.

Of course we don't have one yet so time will tell . . .

Take a deep breath and relax... trust me you will be able to buy several if you want to do that, once they are delivered to dealers. You may have to ask around but don't think for a moment there won't be at least one just for you.

I will find you one personally if you want me to when I stop at stores and do retired@retail. I bet I can make couple of phone calls tomorrow and reserve some for you.

Don't jump on eBay and buy one as there will be plenty on store shelves for a while and we Wacko's help each other out.


SaintWackoPaul'
Keep the Flame

>>If they make small quanties and
harder to get I think they will chase the collectors away instead of geting more to collect these great pieces.<<

The way things have worked out, its the other way around. Large edition sizes (and GLOWs) put the viability of HL as a Collectible in considerable jeopardy. If you read the threads on these forums you hear a repeated cry from experienced collectors (all started as newbies at one point) for smaller edition sizes. The fact of Collectibility is a function of supply and demand - high supply turns off demand from Collectors.

By the way, this is not an inexpensive hobby. Just because a person loves lighthouses doesn't entitle them to an endless supply of the models they want, when they want them. The price of a limited edition will feed two people and two cats in suburbia for a week. So? So there are ways to go about collecting that can maximize your dollars. Buying high edition size new releases is not one of these. Check older threads in the By The Numbers forum for more info.

>>By limiting the edition to 4,000, there will be dedicated HL's enthusiasts who are not going to get one for their collection.<<

Not if they act now. We've known this piece is coming for quite a while - was supposed to be a June release. Dedicated enthusiasts have had plenty of time to budget for the purchase and to reserve one. As for folks who wait til Christmas to look for a Fresnel Lens - well, thats why the pieces are Collectibles, and not giftware - you may not find one. And imo, thats a good thing. :-)

chow chow chow,
__
/im (sorry Paulie, but that flashpan has gone off one too many... :-) )


[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 07-12-2000).]

What is the standing order count at this moment in time? Does 4,000 meet that count? Is it fair to leave out a standing order client who has collected since '91?

Moby

ps. Only 1 of 2 standing orders where filled at my dealers, and I am not one.

I would venture a guess that there is less than 500 collectors that have a standing order as you call it, Moby. What the problem here is with the dealers who can't receive enough items under an allotment system not collectors who can't receive the item someplace.

I totally understand your frustration since you want to be loyal to your dealer. Certain dealers are going to end up with fresnel lens that won't know what to do with them but much like Sanibel a very few dealers were going to get most of the stock if HL didn't use the allotment system at least on the first of the series.

I think it will sort itself out by the time the second in the series comes out. I suspect they will probably raise the amount to the 6500 number in a way I hope they don't because I bet you 4000 is more than enough to handle the needs of the collector world. Some stores won't want to carry them and some dealers who don't even realize it is a new series won't order them and your dealer will get more the next time around.

Your dealer should have at the very least received their auto-ship of the Fresnel, which means if they only got one, aren’t getting the minimum of two of every item. I don’t understand the numbers here if there are two of you collectors with a standing order with them why aren't they getting two autoships.

SaintWackoPaul '
Keep the Flame

I think part of the problem is the difference between standing orders between a customer (collector) and a dealer, and a standing order between a dealer and Harbour Lights (autoship). If a dealer has an autoship, it won't be a problem filling his long term customers needs. If he orders off the open market to fill his needs so that he doesn't get lights that he thinks won't sell, then he will have a problem filling his orders when a light goes to allotment. Maybe it's a dealer problem, not a Harbour Lights problem.
Jim
Johnson

Nice summation Jim, that was what I was trying to say and you summed it up very well. It's nice to see all that time in courtrooms hasn’t been wasted.

SaintWackoPaul '
Keep the Flame

Maybe I'm over-reacting since I live in Florida and there is a stronger nautical influence here. There are eight dealers that are within 30 miles of me and all have sold out their complete allotment basically on autoships and have huge waiting lists.

Joanne

[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 07-12-2000).]

I guess if "push comes to shove" I can go outside....take the lense off my back-door-light and call it my personal Fresnel......a limited edition of ONE!

My dealer is small but dedicated to her collectors. She has a 2 unit autoship. She only is getting one. WHY?

Moby

I'm sure someone who has the correct answer will answer your question, Moby. In the meantime, this is my understanding, which may not be 100% but somewhat correct.

Not all of the 4000 will be shipped to the dealers initially. All who get autoships will get at least one, some more. The remainder come later? Think this may have gotten somewhat messed up as initially, when the lens was first announced (was that in Atlanta?) the folks attending as well as us who read the postings on this event were told that to get one you had to have your dealer order one for you. So at that point orders were taken in Atlanta? and other collectors started calling dealers asking them to order HL631 even though they (the dealers) didn't have a clue as to what it was. Shortly thereafter, this customer ordering was done away with, I believe due to dealers' complaints but if I remember correctly orders already placed would be honored. Those lenses not shipped initially to dealers may be the base from which those advance customer orders are to be filled?

I was one who asked my dealer to order it for me. I think the change in procedure occurred before she even had a chance. She later told me that both of hers were spoken for, one for me and one for another collector. Now I'm even wondering if she is going to get 2 (her autoship #) or if she just assumes that's the number she will receive. I am hoping that I am her #1 on that list.

Although there will still be the 4000 made I really don't feel that the lens can be compared to say the Panama Canal set. There seem to be a number of those still around but they may not be everyone's cup of tea. I know they weren't mine. The lens on the other hand is something that is unique and has so far only been produced by HL. I believe collectors of competitive LH models will want one as well as other folks who may not collect any LH models who are interested in such things. (I met a couple at Rosemont who were interested this way.)

Of course these folks have to try to figure out how to get one, which isn't easy as obviously some of us can't seem to be quite sure how to get one either!

Somebody help me out here. Am I sorta right?

I called Harbour Lights again to clarify this situation.

It was my previously my understanding that a dealer who agreed to be on auto-ship had to commit to receiving 2 of each piece. This is incorrect. A dealer can receive ONE piece via auto-ship.

(For those not familiar, a dealer who signs up for auto-ship automatically is shipped the number of pieces they agree to take. Usually these auto-ship orders are shipped from Harbour Lights' warehouse first, then other orders are filled.)

Approximately 2,200 pieces go to auto-ship dealers. I do not know how many different dealers receive auto-ship.

In the case of a 4,000 edition size item like the 5th Order Fresnel, that leaves 1,800 or so to be allocated.

The only way an auto-ship dealer would receive less than the quantity they normally receive on auto-ship is if they talk to their rep and choose to receive fewer pieces than they would otherwise receive on auto-ship.

Harbour Lights and area reps determine which dealers will receive allocated pieces in each area. Confirmations for the allocated pieces had to be turned in to HL by Reps last week and those dealers either should now know or will know soon how many they may be getting.

If you are on an auto-ship basis with a dealer (meaning you automatically receive one of each piece), I'd suggest a call to confirm that you indeed want this piece as well (since it is a 600 series item, not a 100-200 series limited edition.)

If you are NOT on auto-ship with a dealer, but your dealer lets you know when something is coming in or you hang out at the dealer waiting for the UPS truck to pull up, a call confirming that you want one would still be in order.

If you buy while traveling or you like to shop around different dealers, Call around to dealers and 1) see if they know how many they will be receiving and 2) if they have one unspoken for and 3) offer a deposit to assure you will be able to get one of their unspoken-for pieces.

Once again, collectors, especially Forum readers, may be ahead of dealers on knowledge about this.

Also when calling, keep in mind at some larger stores for which Harbour Lights isn't the primary item, the person who answers the phone may not know the answers to your questions; politely ask to speak with the person who is most knowledgeable about Harbour Lights.

I wonder if some Reps decided on their own to send one autoship instead of two to smaller stores in order to ship more pieces to stores that do better business with them. Moby, if I were you, I'd tell your dealer to have a heart to heart talk with the Rep. Right now, I don't have much confidence in Reps.

Joanne

I STRONGLY believe that all of us collectors who want this piece WILL get it...without paying high secondary market price. BE PATIENT! I am getting a little irritated with alarmist type posts which may be well meaning but convey a high "anxiety quotient" and seem to add fuel to the panic. Next time you find yourself worrying about getting this piece:
REMEMBER Thomas Point
REMEMBER Sanibel
REMEMBER Hillsboro
REMEMBER The Panama Canal Duo
REMEMBER American Shoal
REMEMBER The Alamo

Yes, the Fresnel lens won't be sitting around for months on the shelves. Yes you may have to make a few phone calls to locate one...but you WILL get it.

Doc John
(trying to spread a little Xanax about the Forum)

[This message has been edited by DocJ44 (edited 07-13-2000).]

Thanks for the house call Doc, I was talking to somebody just tonight who agrees with you. Of course all you have to do is read back and you will know that I agree with you. Oh yea the other person that agrees with you's name is Bill Younger.

SaintWackoPaul '
Keep the Flame

If you sold widgets and you had one customer that always bought 20 widgets from you and another customer that always bought 2 widgets from you then one day each wanted an extra widget and you only had 1 - who would you sell it to?

Reps are reps, they don't always share a collectors mindset. They're simply fulfilling their rephood. :-)

__
/im

Tim, it's ethics again. Let's say I'm a sales rep who has a contract to sell two widgets to customer A and a contract to sell two widgets to customer B and B always buys 10 extra. One day there are only 4 widgets to sell, no extras, I would not take one away from A to give it to B, it's not right.

Doc John - who needs Xanax as long as there's chocolate!


Joanne


[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 07-15-2000).]

I certainly agree with you Joanne that contracts should be met. From what I read above, it doesn't sound there are broken contracts.

From JC's conversation with Harbour Lights, he notes:

Once the autoship deliverys are met the contractual arrangements are complete and the remaining pieces get allocated to dealers based on whatever method each rep uses in their zone. If some dealer had a contract beyond the autoship and that was broken by a rep, then you may be right, but there's nothing in the messages that suggest that has happened.

If each dealer who is on the autoship program is guaranteed ONE piece why speculate about "if some Reps decided on their own to send one autoship instead of two to smaller stores in order to ship more pieces to stores that do better business with them."?

I'm not trying to argue with you Joanne, and maybe I'm not understanding your view about what you think is not right. If they are meeting their single piece autoship contracts I'm not comfortable with the suggestion that some rep is being unethical.

Rgds,
__
/im