I'm kinda surprised (pleasantly so) at the change in attitude from Reunion #2 to Reunion #3 as regards the exclusivity of the reunion piece.

Prior to Reunion #2 HL announced that Society members could purchase a version of the Reunion Exclusive without having to attend the reunion. This effectively negated the exlusivity of a small edition size - almost a GLOW-like effect - for the Reunion Exclusive for Attendees (aka REXA).

I thought this was a bad idea and in January of '98 wrote an editorial (which JC was kind enough to publish) that said as much. Boy did this editorial catch a lot of flack! Of all the nerve - to suggest that some should have access to a model in virtue of their weatlth and circumstance that others could not obtain. Its not fair, its un-American and HL demonstrated their infinite wisdom in allowing all (well, all Society Members) to obtain a Reunion Exclusive. (REXM - Rose Island with minor differences from REXA)

Now HL has seen the error of their ways :-) and returned to the approach they adopted for the First Reunion, namely keeping the Reunion piece truly exclusive for attendees.

Lo and behold nary a peep of righteous indignation from forum members about elitist attendees getting an exclusive piece that non-attendees will only be able to purchase on the secondary market. (At an exclusive price no doubt.) There's even a recent reference in another forum that one could partially pay for Reunion attendance by selling one of their Reunion pieces. My, my - what a difference a few years make.

And indeed, Rose Island has never achieved the status of NPL as a desirable piece. The more common Society version has kept down the price for the limited REXA version.

Has thinking changed on this issue? Evolved? I for one applaud the forum for not whining about prospects for the rarity the '01 Reunion model will become.

From the Fog Signal Building,
__
/im

(Original editorial available upon request.)

Really, I was of the understanding that there will once again be a REXA and a REXM. I had even heard that the differences between the two will be more obvious. Maybe this was a rumor I've heard? John or anybody, what say you? Have you heard something different.

Secondly, Tim your comparing apples and oranges. Everybody should be able to come to the party but some of us might get Chocolate Cake instead of German Chocolate Cake.

Once again I see another referrence to whiners? Whats up with that? Are we going to rename the Fog Signal Building the Whine Cellar?

I'll stand corrected if there will be "Reunion editions" available for non Reunion purchasers even if they are further differentiated. If so, too bad. It was a lousy idea then and remains so, imo. Collectibles aren't entitlements.

As far as references to 'whining' (please note no use of an ad hominem form) I decline efforts from those who whine encouragement to anesthetize the conversation. (vbg)

Warm Air Cool Water,
__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 10-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 10-05-2000).]

There will be two versions of Hooper Strait done, with much greater differences, it has been stated. I agree that the "one" reunion version of Hooper Strait lighthouse, should be the only one produced, Tim.

SaintWackoPaul '
Keep the Flame

Exactly!
How about the Reunion and a GLOw?
Did I really recommend a GLOW?
Ouch!
lol

Two very different versions of Hooper Strait MD will be available. One for attendees, a different version for order by Society Members during a 30 day window pre-reunion in 2001.

Significant differences between the two, not minor like removal of an anchor, a wine bottle, etc.

The Reunion version will be a breakthrough for Harbour Lights - if the technology can be pulled off.

It JUST AINT FAIR. Sorry Tim, I just had to do that.

If I understand this correctly this was not my intention. As usual I was just having a little fun but not trying to cool the discussion. I agree about the exclusivity of the Reunion Piece. It would be nice to see it handled as it was in the first reunion but it will not be .

Any guesses as to what the differences will be between the Reunion version and the Society one?

Think about the controversy over Seven Foot Knoll when it came out.

Anyway, when you call in to register in just 9 days, they will describe the differences when they give you the option to order your Reunion pieces.

If I remember, there was some discussion about Seven Foot Knoll and the appropriateness (is that a word?) of the setting it is depicted in. There were advocates of both the land-locked locale and the original at sea setting. Since Hooper Strait has also been moved from it's original location, maybe the two versions show the old and the new?

Or could it be the rumored removeable roof? The attendee version complete with interior details and the Society version locked up tight?

And either way, do the two versions constitute one piece? Or two? A variation of one? Or a second LE issue?

I can't see through the fog and my hearing ain't what it used to be.

Rick

The two pieces (whatever be the differences) have two different product numbers and are two LEs of the same lighthouse. Besides the 1998 Reunion piece/Society version, there are two other lighthouses which have had two 'limited editions' made of them:

Cape Hatteras (Original Limited and resculpture - same product number, and the on-the-move version of it, this year's Bill Event Exclusive.)

Morris Island - Then & Now - which had two different product numbers and could be bought as matched number sets for a while, then individually.

Hey Rick, ... I think you may be right. That would be a great idea.

Since no one has confirmed reservations yet, I don't think a true poll can be taken about a Reunion Exclusive and a Reunion Society piece. My personal opinion is there should be only one Reunion HL, the exclusive one for attendees. By offering a "can't tell them apart from a distance" Reunion Society piece you actually take away from the exclusiveness of the "attendees' piece."

The majority of the people who attend the reunion will feel that way. Those who can't attend will definitely have contrary feelings about an exclusive reunion HL.

Let the games begin!

Bob

I also think that the difference between the two pieces will be the location depicted.

I think that all harbour lights collectors should get equal treatment and have a shot at all pieces produced.I know personally I felt bad that I wouldn't be able to make the last reunion but it made me feel a bit better when I had a chance to get my rose island.I there is to be a ditinction between the people who can go and those who for whatever reason can't make a special mini piece.don't penalize all the others.The others also contribute to the success of harbour lights.There are many reasons people can't make an affair besides financial.Those that want to leave them out sound like snobs! oseabee.

Ahhh, the classic response. And what about all the folks who, for whatever reason, can't afford to collect Harbour Lights? Aren't they entitled to receive Reunion pieces? And shouldn't HL make extra LE's so future generations can buy them when they come to the hobby after a retirement date? Don't they deserve a chance? Its only fair. (Vbg)

I don't mean to be flip about this. I just wonder if the notions of rarity or 'limited' have any meaning in the world of HL Collectibles?


Rgds,
Saint Snob
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 10-08-2000).]

FWIW, I remember when Tim's editorial came out a few years back and how mad I was when I read it. I was but a wee new collector of Harbour Lights at the time (less than a year) and was one of the whiners. I was just getting caught up in the frenzy trying to collect then all, and I thought that everyone should be afforded the opportunity to have the reunion piece. How dare they not offer the reunion piece to everyone! I think I allowed my personal feelings to get in the way of common sense back then.

Well a few years later and a little more wiser in the collectables industry, my opinion has changed. In essence, everyone does have the opportunity to obtain a reunion exclusive. I have never attended a reunion, but have both Reunion Exclusives in my collection. I agree with Tim that it doesn't mean much to have an Exclusive reunion piece that is available to everyone, reunion attendee or not. The reunion is a special event and those that attend should have something special to come away with that is exclusive to the event. It is also easy to see how the value of the REXA was influenced by the REXM. I know some people say the value of their collection doesn't mean anything, but I think it does. I don't look at it as an investment, but I would at the very least like my collection to hold its value.

Just my opinion evolved over the years....

-Todd



[This message has been edited by Todd Shorkey (edited 10-08-2000).]

Maryland lights have done very well for HL in the past .With good sale history on the Maryland lights I think the Hopper society version will do better than the Rose Island counterpart no matter what the variation. Remember HL is a business. Business must make money. A society version of hopper will make money.

With the differences in variation reported by St.John and the fact that many who do not attend will not pay secondary prices for the reunion variation,I think the word EXCLUSIVE will still apply while reaching an obvious business goal for HL as well as please the maryland and CHesepeake Bay light collectors who have been so generous in the past.

bravo it's better for business to keep the majority happy than the few.oseabee

I didn't go to the first two reunions and I didn't belong to the Society then either so I don't have the attendee version of those lights - but my heart is not broken. I did see and purchase at retail the Society version of Rose Island later. I bought it partly because of what it was, and because Rose Island is a pretty nice lighthouse.

One way to make the attendee versions more "exclusive" would be to limit the number allowed to one per person. If the purpose of this sculpture is a special momento of the occasion, what is the 2nd one for? Other than to sell for big bucks?

Not offering a non-attendee version to those Society members not able to attend the reunion would mean that these folks would probably not be able to have that lighthouse in their collection. This would seem more of a punishment for not attending than the attendee version serving as a reward for attending.

So, let's see we have: Attendees who get an exclusive version, Society folks who get a somewhat different less exclusive version and the johnny come laters or nevers who either don't care or will buy a GLOW (tisk, tisk) or a little light or another brand. Unless they get real lucky or are all papered up to begin with!

(The above may make no sense to anyone but me?)

REXA-lution 3

You say you want a REXA-lution
Well, you know
We all want a Hooper Straight
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want a Hooper Straight
But when you talk about exclusion
Don't you know that you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all hate to see the GLOW
You ask for REXMs lilliputian
Well, you know
We're not going to the show
But when you send money
to people with a second REXA
All I can tell is you'll be glad there's extra
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
Ah

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah...

You say you'll change HL's Reunion
Well, you know
We'd all want to read your thread
You tell me it's value dilution
Well, you know
Better buy mutual funds instead
And if you deprive HL of their cash cow

Ain't nobody goin' to Baltimore anyhow
Don't you know it's gonna be all right
all right, all right
all right, all right, all right
all right, all right, all right


--with apologies to John, Paul, George & Ringo

I might sound like I'm coming from both sides with this response.

I think that there should be only one Reunion piece. I do have both Reunion pieces from the earlier reunions, without having been there. I made my choice- spend the dollars needed to get it in the Secondary market.

If they feel that they have to have a Society Edition it should be as different as the two Morris Islands are.

I also do not think that "everyone" has a right to a Reunion piece. It should only be for attendees. I think that there should be only one available to each person who attends, not two.

This might seem to contradict my opinions expressed earlier about the Reunion , but I don't think so.

Dennis

Art,

No apologies are needed. You did a great job on that parody.

Just in time for john Lennon's birthday.

Dennis

For anyone interested in reading Tim's original editorial, but afraid to ask, here is the link:
http://www.lighthousekeepers.com/forums/Forum17/HTML/000026.html

From what I read no one will be exluded from attending the reunion. At least no one will be excluded who has several hundred dollars and has the time to attend and who can get to Baltimore.

But then, its a might darn 'exclusionary' to charge money for the reunion. And having it on days when some people can't attend, well its just not fair. There should be five or six reunions to insure everyone has the opportunity. After all that will please the most number of people and thats best for business. Heck, think of all the people who are excluded from the wonderful Harbour Lights hobby because they can't afford these expensive models. Oh dear, the callousness of it all. The poor huddled masses excluded from the big time and forced to collect small natty Scassis reproductions. (roflmao!)

The point is that the very notion of a Collectible is by definition "exclusionary". [Note: I don't endorse adoption of this semmantic of class-warfare, but will work with the material I'm given :-)]

Here's a couple snippets from my original editorial written in December of 1997:


HL Collectibles are manufactured explicitly to be 'rare' or 'limited'. At somewhere around 5000-6000 releases of each edition, the marketplace is pretty well saturated. The very idea of a Collectible (as opposed to collections of things) is predicated on the notion of there being a thing that not everyone can have. And within the community of Collectors itself there is a need for the allure of rarity - its an absolutely fundamental part of what keeps the hobby going. The fact that not everyone can have one is a sine qua non of Collecting.

In the long run - and HL has had a pretty long run for the business its in - the occasional rare piece is a necessary component to the success of the business over time. At witnessed by the remarks of others, many of the long term Collectors recognize this. Why do you think people get excited about varietals and artist proofs - and why do some people value these? (Even if some do get them for free.) Why do you think so many folks are in favor of limiting edition size? Occasionally creating an even more limited piece is a good thing, an exciting thing for the long term viability of the hobby and HL's business.

For whom the Foghorn tolls,
__
/im

Thanx for link, Todd - I'd forgotten it was published on the forums - your msg. came in while I was composing.


[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 10-09-2000).]

ABSOLUTLY!!!

Well, I read Tim's editorial when he first wrote it, I didn't agree with him then and I don't now. According to HL, the attendee's were given the right to purchase 2 HLs per person in order to sell one to a collector who couldn't attend. That's not what took place. It turned into attendees wanting exorbitant prices for their extra HLs to help pay for their reunion experience. Not all were this way, but many were.

We finally are able to attend a reunion, and I still feel the same way about it. So the years haven't changed my mind. I love my Rose Island even if it isn't the exclusive and appreciate the fact that HL allowed me to buy it as a Society member. I wasn't able to join in on the fun and adventure, meet other collectors, nor receive any of the other "gifts" given, but I do have a Rose Island - REXM - in my collection. So here's one "whiner" who hasn't changed.

I'm not completely naive - I still believe in lower edition sizes and rare pieces. To me, the reunion is a different category all together. I look forward to experiencing it for the first time instead of reading about it afterwards.

Kathy

[This message has been edited by Al and Kathy (edited 10-23-2000).]

Kathy, I remember your response quite well - nice to see we're still consistent. :-)



Over the course of three Reunions and all the discussion on this topic, this is first time I've ever heard someone claim Harbour Lights placed a contingency or suggestion on what people do with the pieces they purchase, reunion pieces or otherwise. Of course while they do not get involved in it, HL is supportive of the secondary market.

From the perspective of the marketplace why should there be any distinction between one rare piece and another in terms of whether it can or should be sold for profit? Harbour Lights sells their pieces to Collectors for profit why shouldn't Collectors do the same? What someone may call "exorbitant" prices are merely the reality of supply and demand. Is it the folks who can't afford 'em or are irritated about paying more than what someone else paid? I guess thats only natural.

But hey - if it helps defray the cost of the reunion, then, imo, thats great - it means more folks can attend if they know they can recoup part of their expense. The reunion is the perfect opportunity to create a rare piece by limiting quantity.

__
/im

Tim, I didn't want you to think that there was that much change.

I heard the rhetoric concerning the reunion piece from HL many years ago when I called after the word of the first reunion came out. Perhaps it was said to make me feel better, who knows. I am also supportive of the secondary market and have even been involved with it on occasion.

I think that after all these years, you and I will never agree on this particular point. I do continue to enjoy reading what you have to say whether I agree with it or not. In fact, it might surprise you to know that I often do agree.

Kathy


[This message has been edited by Al and Kathy (edited 10-23-2000).]