As I scan thru the number of post at the Community Directory I am dismayed as I ponder through all the names that I have past. Names that sit on the sheet, never moving forward but just lay dormant like dead wood. They are occasionally passed by the few Survivors of the forums that have made it through the Harbour Light’s secondary market holocaust and earned the right of their new positions.

The names I have passed are names of many of the early forum’s white nights and protectors of the limited editions. These names were once well known and held great respect among the collectors but now have just withered down to a whispering memory to the few survivors.

Why have these great names ceased to exist and where has their heart of desire moved to? As they once roamed the forums as great soldiers they went into battle and lost. First they were crippled by the GLOWs then stabbed in the heart by ebay.

You are endead a good writer!

I love your poetry, yet so sad that the suject matter is so true.

I'm not sure how Ebay has anything to do with weakening any of the collectibles market. What it did do is show the true market. It showed that Harbour Lights was filling orders for dealers and ignoring who was going to buy them from the dealers. Harbour Lights got really hot at the end of 1995. Collectors were in a frenzy to find the Original 17 that remained on the shelves for retail as well as Secondary Dealers that were coming on line. Harbour Lights went for the gold and increased sizes above 5,500. There was never a market exceeding 5,500 lighthouses for every lighthouse that they made. But there were more than 5,500 orders for each one coming from the dealers, Harbour Lights true customer. They flooded the market to fill dealers orders who didn't understand their own customers, the dealers couldn't sell what they were ordering. Probably one of the rare exceptions was the Statue of Liberty. Not popular IMHO for being a Lighthouse but for a symbol of our Freedom. Find another lighthouse that can do that. Those of you that think Ebay hurt the collectible markets are missing the boat. It stopped Regional Secondary Dealers from taking advantage of collectors. Their market was in such a frenzy they could sell items for increased values and not even have the piece in their hands. How you ask, easy. An example; lets use Thomas Point, Bill's proclaimed farorite lighthouse. This lighthouse was HOT before it even hit the dealer's shelves. Bill is a SMART MAN and a GREAT SALESMAN!!! To bad he didn't have more favorites. For the new collectors coming on line in 1996 they didn't know where to find a dealers listing or know to call Harbour Lights and ask. The Secondary Dealer was licking their chops waiting for the sale! That Maryland, Mid-Atlantic Collector had to have a Thomas Point, but didn't know a better way! They approached the Secondary Dealer for the sale, the Secondary Dealer called a retailer in California, Oregon, Washington, maybe Texas? They bought it for retail and more than doubled their money without even having the investment in inventory. I can list all kinds of examples of how Secondary Dealers took advantage of you and even inflated the market but I think you get the point. Another example would be collectible publications, you think any of those publications ever had any real basis in fact. Not a chance, those values were based on information that a handful of secondary dealers provided them. The secondary dealers created their own market, their own frenzy! Ebay brought the prices back to reality. You want to point a finger at Ebay it's the wrong direction. Point it at Harbour Lights for over production.

imho
Retired at Retail, the Original Ebay!

And what does any of that have to do with all so many posters of the past do not post today?

It doesn't, it has to do with the part about Ebay which also has little to do with why they're not posting here. It also speaks to the Secondary Holocaust which really wasn't because of Ebay, it was more result of smarter collectors and once again over production of lesser demand lighthouses. It's just subjects Daniel addressed in his Ode and this is the Fog Signal Building.

Interesting concept but there are two sides to any story. Yes, it's true that the secondary dealers were enjoying success by gathering older and more desireable HL's and supplying them to the hungry new collectors searching for the "must haves". They created a supply for the demand and were compensated for their services.

There are many old-time collectors out there that have no real idea what their HL's may be worth. They are probably computer challenged and figure anything near what they paid would be nice if they needed to get rid of their collection.

When you figure Harbour Lights originated with 5500 edition sizes, and some people use to buy two of each release, how many actual collectors can be identified among the 300,325,135 people in the US as of December 2006. Then you have to take into consideration the number of our HL replicas that have been damaged, destroyed, or thrown away as an unidentified worthless trinket.

Yes, the increase in edition sizes was partially at fault in the downhill slide, but I don't feel it was done maliciously. The Youngers saw the 5500's starting to disappear from the dealers and I'm sure there was pressure from the dealers to get more of the popular models to offer for sale. Little did they know that it would slow sales because people realized they could wait and buy later instead of getting one before they sold out. So the Youngers tried to increase their collector base and it backfired. The older 5500 series had increased in imaginary worth while the new larger edition sizes depreciated before they were even sold. Gift shoppers didn't care, but diehard collectors moaned at the loss of momentum and felt their collections were suddenly devalued.

Then came the popularity of eBay! Some collectors cheered wildly at the thought of a possible Harbour Lights connection with collectors around the world. Buying and selling, and finding those rare low flag#'s and lightning rod pieces was made easy. Everyone thought this was great until the collectible industry started to falter making collectibles less desireable. Why pay retail when you can buy for less if you're patient. That type of overall attitude drove the prices even lower. Instead of hunting a piece down, paying a premium price, and getting a cherished item, people were holding out for the cheapest possible price driving the prices lower again.

Dealers suffered from loss sales. Who wanted to pay retail at a dealer when you could buy it for cost, or less, on eBay. Then somes dealers resorted to dealer-dumping either on eBay or at store closures which more than likely ended up on eBay anyways. Instead of a dealer buying for 50% and selling for 100%, people were buying these piece for pennies on a dollar hoping to make a buck selling them for less than dealer cost. It became a vicious cycle which tainted this collectible to the point that many of the faithful collectors lost interest.

Can the vicious cycle be turned around? Will the faithful collectors of days gone by (no pun intended), and their new brothers and sisters, rally behind the rebirth of Harbour Lights? Will the new owners be able to establish a good core of faithful collectors to make the whole limited edition collectible worthwhile instead of riding the giftware train to tourist locations worldwide? I guess all interested parties will just have to hang around and see.

Absolutely nothing, but you did have to read this whole post before you got to this part, and that's why we are all here.

Bob

Bob
I agree with you totally.
We posted about the same time. So I might be covering some of the same stuff you did.

Sean
I agree with you if I was going to blame anyone for the inflated market it would be the secondary market racketeers, many of the HL sales reps and a few of the Harbour Light dealers. They inflated the demand, for in the name of making a buck. I can add many stories to yours supporting this. What I do disagree is blaming HL. In 1995 and1996 Harbour Lights had dealers beating down their doors needing to have their orders filled. Harbour Lights could not meet their obligations to their dealers with out raising the production. I felt that HL did the right thing with that respect. As you said, they should have adjusted their production amounts pending on the popularity of the product. They finally did do that in 1999.

Now in the end of 1998 when there was signs of a sluggish market ahead, HL started to pull back some of the production. Collectors saw that the market was becoming flooded but HL didn’t not react quickly enough. They did start that after 3 years if a LE didn’t retired they automatically retired it. But again it was not enough.

Harbour Lights kept flooding the market; they were still making money and lots of it. They saw the signs and reacted to them but not quick enough. Finally it all caught up with them. The dealers started dropping them or just went out of business. HL is now facing the new era of ebay just like all the other collectable lines.

Now back to ebay. How did ebay fit into all this? Basically all ebay did was make the hard to find collectables not hard to find. Did ebay do something wrong? Not really. What ebay did was changed the perimeters for collecting. Ebay has changed all the laws for collecting and the only thing HL did wrong was not to conform to the new laws quick enough, The New number one collecting law (created by ebay) Is:


Collectables production quanity has to be low.

No longer can a mass production of a collectable be hidden in collectors homes and attics and be considered rare and hard to find. With ebay everyone is a salesmen. At any moment a collectable that is sold-out and starts to become hard to find, will be put on ebay and made available again.

Sean I wasn’t blaming ebay I am just stating facts. Because of ebay making collectables more available there is less of a demand, thus lowering the value of the collectables, thus in many hearts of collectors making it an un-collectable (a spoonware), thus stabbing (symbolically) them in their hearts.

I think it's simply that people have other interests and/or obligations. They may just no longer have the time or inclination to be posting here anymore. Doesn't have anything to do with Ebay or editions sizes. Folks that used to post here a lot may still be collecting or enjoying what they have collected. Sure many of the "old folks" are gone but we do pick up "new folks" too.

I don't post much anymore for no particular reason. I still collect HL, although not a much as before because of lack of space. I still belong to a lighthouse group and volunteer as I can. As the years go bye, sometimes your priorities change and life gets in the way. I will always have a special place in my heart for lighthouses and the Forums. I have learned alot and I know if I need any information or advice about trips or lighthouse, all I need to do is post it. Hopefully in a couple of years when we will retire (did I say that word!)my husband and I will get to do all the travelling we want and visit all the lighthouses left to see. Thanks being out there.

I'm with Sean on this one...if my heart's been stabbed, it wasn't by Ebay and the many dealers and secondary marketeers desperate to rid their store and closet shelves of dusty, stale HL merchandise...it was Harbour Lights and their GLOWS, their revised GLOWs, their blinking GLOWs, and their LLOMs that did the piercing...and I don't post much anymore because I long ago grew tired of being told by some of the long-winded blowhards around here that my nose just isn't brown enough...

It's funny, but it always seems to be the same few people who want to blame anything and everything on ebay. Did ebay kick their dog? Did ebay kidnap their kids? The main reason HL and most collectibles have faded can be traced to one thing and one thing only, GREED! Whither it was the “secondary market losers” who bought multiples of many pieces, and then made up prices and gave them to the publications of the day. Or was it the dealers who went nuts and ordered large amounts of HLs because of imagined demand. This GREED led HL to believe there was a greater demand for their product than there actually was and of course they started over producing to meet this imaginary demand. Thusly we ended up were we are today with certain people whining over and over about how ebay has ruined HL when we all know the real problem is these people are not able to put their children through college or fund that early retirement they had dreamed of. They are stuck with closets full of HL figures they had hoped to sell and make a mint on. HLs that aren’t worth the cardboard boxes they are stored in. Ebay did not cause this GREED; it just exposed it for what it was. With ebay’s arrival intelligent collectors were able to skip the “secondary market losers” and find out what these little pieces of plaster and paint were really worth. For a while there HLs were worth quite a bit on ebay, but as soon as the prices started to slip a little the “secondary market losers” panicked and flooded the market with their horded pieces. At that point the market collapsed under the shear weight of the “rare” pieces that were suddenly everywhere.


Opps I think I may have just answered my own question about why certain people seem to hate ebay so much.

I am not sure who on this post said anything about blaming ebay.
All I said was collectors was stabbed in the heart by ebay. This was just a metaphor meaning that the collecting days as they knew them was changed by ebay.
Maybe a biblical term would be more appropriate here. Ebay tested the collect ability of harbour Lights by fire.

I explained all that in my second post.

This is great! The FSB is for sounding off or chewing the fat and that is certainly happening under this topic.

Instead of investing in HL's to pay for that on-the-water vacation home on Block Island, I should have bought stock in eBay and the various shipping companies. I would imagine that eBay has increased shipping by those companies by leaps and bounds.

Imagine those valuable cardboard boxes filled with chintzy lighthouses arriving at my home each day filling my storage area beyond capacity. All this made possible by eBay!

Nothing will go to waste! I will lay the lighthouses all over the gravel driveway to my Block Island home and run them over with my Dodge Ram Hemi until it looks like one of those cute quohog shell driveways. I will use the cardboard boxs to start fires in my fireplace keeping us very warm as we overlook the Great Salt Pond on those chilly days. I will take the COA's and use them for dividers in my recipe box. The tent cards can be turned to the blank side, marked with the letters of the alphabet, and stapled to the COA's so I'll know where to put the recipes in the recipe box. Everything will be put to use. Nothing will be wasted.

HELLO! HELLO! BUELLER? BUELLER? BUELLER? Does anyone remember the definition of the actual worth of something? If my memory serves me correctly, the actual worth is what someone is willing to give you for it. Forget you HL collection for a moment and let's talk automobiles. You decide to invest in a brand new car. The car list for $40,000 but with discounts and other dealer incentives you get it for $32,000. You love the car! You're proud to be seen driving around in such a fine vehicle. It makes you smile every time you see it on display in your driveway. It often become the topic of conversation with family and friends. You're proud to talk about it and all its features.

Five years later your once dream machine is getting old and you would like to trade that baby in for the latest model. Suddenly, your $40,000 list, $32,000 investment is only worth $7000. "Holy strawberries, Batman, am I in a jam!" I invested $32,000 and I'm only getting a fraction of that back in trade! What happend?

Well Mr. or Mrs. car owner, you have participated in the American Dream! You were grinning from ear-to-ear when you first saw your new car. The smile factor was way off the end of the measuring meter. It was probably a 12 on a scale of 1-10. You owned it for five years. It served you well. It made you smile. Now you have to realize that all of that doesn't come for free. You paid for that with your hard earned dollars.

The dealer will take your trade-in, put it on the lot for $10,999, and sell it at a discount of $10,000 to someone who always dreamed of owning such a fine automobile but could never afford to buy it new. Your former car is now making someone else smile. They proudly display in their driveway. They are proud to be seen driving it around town. They are proud to talk about the features of their new investment with family and friends. They feel good and that is a necessity of life.

Now let's back up a little. No, not the car! Leave that in park. Let's back up to the new car dealer that sold you the car. Did you consider him "greedy" when he discounted your new purchase by eight grand? When the used car dealership sold your trade-in for $3,000 more than he gave you for it, was he "greedy"? (The answer is the beginning of the next paragraph.)

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Absolutely not.

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Collecting Harbour Lights or whatever for display, or for resale is a hobby. Hobbies are suppose to generate interest and provide enjoyment. They can be profitable if you play your cards right, by buying low and selling high. You must be willing to wait for the right opportunity. You must be patient. Have you ver gone into a junkyard full of worthless wrecked cars and tried to buy a part for your old buggy? Worthless my foot! There's gold in those junks! Rusted out hulks of automobiles that originally sold for $4000 can fetch ten times that if they are the right model. Why's that you ask? Because one man's trash is another man's treasure.

Bob

Isn’t it great?

Okay you people are proving exactly what I am talking about. The only collectors on these forums are the Survivors; the collectors that collect harbour Lights or kept their collection no matter what their resale value are. You people survived. I would say most of the collectors that do not participate here anymore-lost interest when ebay revealed the value of their collectables. (Stabbed them in their hearts) Yes, they will quote other reasons. However, if we started to see secondary values of HL go up, I bet many of these collectors would find time to participate again.

I would say most of the collectors that do not participate here anymore-lost interest when ebay revealed the value of their collectables.

The idea that democritizing price information caused people to leave is a bunch of sanctimonious claptrap. Not to put too fine a point on it. :-)

People lost interest because HL Limited Editions ceased to be collectible.

I've essayed on this subject more times than I can remember. Do I really have to stop this car...

The question was and continues to be 'What is a Collectible?'. (note the capital 'C'.) HL models still meet one of the necessary conditions for collectibility, viz. they are attractive. How ever you want to say this... they are nice to look at, low maintenance, family friendly, tie to history, generally accurate, etc. etc. Attractive.

While attractiveness may be a necessary condition for collectibility, alone it is not sufficient. For something to be a Collectible it must also appreciate in value. While some HL models have appreciated and managed to hold on to a increase in value, the line in general lost it capacity to do so.

Reduced demand = lower price = backwards appreciation = less interest = fewer forum participants. If you want to understand why there fewer forum participants, don't look at eBay. You want to answer the question: why have HL Limited Editions ceased to appreciate?

Here is a clue: the tendency of attractive things to appreciate is greater when they are scarce.

Commoditization does not breed scarcity. Meeting or exceeding demand eliminates scarcity.

Read that again. The tendency of attractive things to appreciate is greater when they are scarce.

Here's a Fogsignal Fact^TM: the downfall of Harbour Lights as Collectibles began when the company decided to offer non-reunion participants the opportunity to buy Rose Island Reunion Exclusive knockoffs. I arbitrarily chose that event as symbolic of the start of The Decline. But it fits so well, that its probably true! snort.

I remain,

Yr OBdnt Srvnt,
__
/im

No one has addressed the real reason for the decline in posters. Some left for the reason that other Forums filled their interests better. Some left because of personality differences while others left because of illness or life changing situations. BUT, the main reason that posters have left is because the "thrill of lighthouses" was only a passing whimsy to the majority of the posters that do not appear on these Forums anymore. They bought Harbour Lights because "it was the thing to do" and now that "thing" has changed to horses, shoes, crystal, etc. They are still buying collectibles but they are no longer Harbour Lights because the fad has changed. These fads will also pass in due time and will be replaced by glasses, beer bottles or some other fad. While the increase in production of LEs, introduction of GLOWs, 9/11 happening and Ebay maturing may have played a small part in declining interest, the truth is that lighthouses are "out". The excuses that people use to not post now were always present but time was always found to post when lighthouses were the "in thing". These are the hard cold facts as presented from my point of view and you may ,or may not, agree with any or all of them.

I agree with you Tim, but I think the start was sooner when HL increased the amount made of each to 9500, plus close to 30 Le's were produced in 1996 jamming the dealers shelves with too much product.. 7 Lighthouses had been introduced in November and December of 1995 making it close to 40 introduced in a little over a years time..

Other things like mutiple issue of the same lighthouses as LE's also contributed to the downfall of the collectible status of the first version released..

Paul
I am sure that all you mentioned started a down turn in the desire of collecting harbour lights. But the actual effects didn’t show up until summer of 1998. Someone on the AOL “Collectable Lighthouse” bulletin Board questioned the future market. He asked; how do we know that some day Harbour Lights would not drop in value? Of course everyone on the board responded that that would never happened. It never entered anyone’s mind until that summer in 98 that doubt was entered into our minds. This in my opinion was the turning point of Harbour Lights value. Ever since that day prices stop rising and the market has done a gradual trend down till we have come to the prices of today.
This would put the downfall point of value just before the Rose Island Reunion.

I beg to differ, Daniel, as a group (8 of us I believe) of us pointed out what we thought should change in Spring of 1997 at Rosemont, when asked by HL..

Reducing the releases to no more that a dozen a year and roll back the amount to 5500 made of each, were two of our suggestions that all of us agreed were most important to do for the collector..

It was on our minds.. At least privately maybe not publicly..

You people are missing the real topic that Daniel originally posted and that is what happened to the old time posters. We all have our opinions on what happened to Harbours Lights but really have not addressed the subject on what happened to the posters.

Well how do we really know what happened to those who used to post and no longer post....if they no longer post?

Hey Sue, ...Is that one of those,"If the rain keeps up it won't come down", things?

Bob

What has happened to Harbour Lights is what has happened to a lot of our posters, they are no longer buying Harbour Lights..

If you want another reason, I think we have way to many forums listed... It can be overwhelming to a newbie..

I agree with Paul about the # of Topics being overwelming to a Newbie. Maybe we need a Start Here buttom which would take you to 'todays active topics'.
Bob

I agree with Tim and Paul on the main reason that we don't have as many visitors who post. I think that someone searching on information on Harbour Lights would love it here. The problem is that very few people are searching for information on Harbour Lights anymore.

Paul, ...You're right that many people are no longer buying HL's. I really don't believe it has anything to do with the quality of the product. HL's are better than ever, as far as I'm concerned.

I disagree on the fact we have too many forums listed at the CF. Having as many forums as we do expands our horizons and gives everyone an opportunity to read through the various topics rather than just the same old, same old. We must consider expanding the CF and offer new ideas to make it continually interesting.

Our address is www.lighthousekeepers.com and the name of the place is the Collector Forums. We may have started out with strictly Harbour Lights in mind with a small side of lighthousing, but we have found there are many other interests and things to talk about that keep people visiting our site.

If we keep a tunnel vision attitude of nothing but HL's we will certainly fade into obscurity. Our foundation of faithful CF family members will dwindle down to a group as small, or even smaller than the old AOL Board. We have to accent the positives and let the negatives ride into the sunset.

It's nice to keep somewhat of a focus on Harbour Lights and lighthouse related topics, but there are other things out there that our faithful followers are interested in. The trick is how do we get those interests introduced into the CF.

:rolleyes: Bob :rolleyes:

Delete your cookies and then go to the forums with a mindset that you have never been there and the 38 or so forums is overwhelming..

This is not just me saying it but I have heard it directly from HLC members when I asked why they don't go to the Forums except when I send them a link to a specific thread..

Loved your analogy,Bob! Sure makes me feel better! I'm about ready to trade cars.