I was wondering if you guys have done any scientific studies on what the easy availibility of retired pieces on ebay is doing to the secondary market and collection values. Is it becoming the measuring stick for secondary values? As a new collector I am glad to be able to find HTF pieces at reasonable prices. On the other hand one hates to see the vaule of these pieces going down. I have been tracking the cost of pieces that I am interested in buying and definitely have been seeing a downward trend in the prices. I only count the ones where the reserve is met. I'm sure you guys have plenty of theories, ideas, and calculations concerning this. I would love to hear them.

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ORV

Hi Orv,

I'm sure most everybody who reads this forum also checks eBay on a daily basis. The purpose of checking eBay is usually to find a deal on a certain piece you need for your collection. In most cases you would be better off buying from a reliable secondary market dealer to insure the quality of the HL and to buy from a person you can send the piece back to for a full refund if you're not satisfied.

I do feel that eBay listings will give you a fair idea how the prices might be on certain HLs. I check eBay several times everyday.
Yes, I've got some great deals and have not had a bad experience so far.

IMHO. I think that dealers are unloading their extra stock via EBAY. Take a look at the lights they are selling. Compare the list with your dealers shelves. I see the same ones left on the shelf. They can unload them at a price below retail yet above wholesale. They have to move the stock that is just sitting there. I also noticed that a lot of them are GLOWS. Several lights that are very readily available are found on EBAY over and over. I think that it supports lower edition sizes.
Jake

I wonder if secondary prices are backing off a little due to market saturation ? It wasn't all that long ago (year and a half ago or so) that you could search e-bay for Harbour lights and only come up with 20-30 hits. As the wonderfull world of the internet reaches more collectors and sellers with a few extra's the supply and demand effect has begun leaning in the buyers favor. As time goes on this trend should correct it self as more and more pieces find permenant homes.

>>the Beavers gone to Lajolla again to check out a cute Harbour Seal<<

Word has it that Harbour Seal is really a recruiter for Scripps - watch out Beav!

Rgds,
Crusader Rabbit

IMNSHO, e-Bay is a good thing over the long haul. Sure, there are some abuses. e-People are people.

e-Bay makes the market more efficient, which means that a fair price level may be reached more readily than without it. It may mean that the price of some pieces will drop, and others may rise. This might cause some anguish among secondary dealers and collectors short-term of course.

Having said that, I agree with Bob; I'd rather pay a few bucks more to a reputable secondary market dealer than take my chances with an unkown. Although I too have used e-Bay with good results, it always makes me a little nervous sending cashiers checks to strangers.

I agree with Jake, too: Dealers use e-Bay to dump extra stock. I do not think this is a bad thing. It does, imo, support the argument for a smaller edition size in many cases (I like the variable edition size concept that BuyGlass supports). Given the large edition size of the units being "dumped", a lower than retail price on e-Bay may be justified for some of these units. Again, I don't think this is a bad thing. Better to have an edition sell out below retail than to remain on store shelves for 2,000 days.

Laissez faire,

-Adam Smith

I think...

1) ebay helps the secondary market whether you buy or sell or just look. When you search ebay, the ones that generate the comments are ones that sold for 'too much' (Hillsboro pre-intro) or 'too little'.

2) When you search ebay for HL, click on the 'completed auctions' and see how many HLs never even got one bid. Or find out how many got one or two bids, but didn't meet the researve.

3) Since some secondary dealers have gone back to 'open pricing', the dollars a seller gets for his item is almost always limited to something less that a recognized secondary dealer would sell the piece for. (Yes, there have been a few exceptions.)

4) Secondary dealers have had to agressively price HL pieces because of ebay listings.

5) Ready access to sellers and/or buyers via the Internet makes anyone with an 'extra' a 'legitimate' seller. Pre-1996, buyers looked for classifieds in the collector magazines, or had their retail dealer find them one. There were 2-4 'secondary dealers'.

6. Individuals who wanted to sell off a collection were at the mercy of a limited number of brokers or buyers.

7. The Internet serves, and will continue to serve as a 'dispersion' vehicle for the 'extras' in closets, moving them into the hands of new collectors.


The net result is that prices have leveled off or, in some cases, declined. SOME of this must be attributed to the GLOWs [really, let's not go there again.]

My conclusion, the 'network' of collectors has been brought together through Internet sites and message areas such as these Collector Forums. The channel for news, information etc. 2-3 years ago was the quarterly newsletter from Harbour Lights. Now we can all obsess every day on-line.

John

I don't think e-bay will hurt secondary prices at all. I've managed to get better prices right in this forum in The Marketplace. E-Bay prices seem to be equal or better than Greenbook for the most part and it gives access to people who may not be able to shop a lot of deallers for them. E-Bay has it's place in the food chain.

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>>3) Since some secondary dealers have gone back to 'open pricing', the dollars a seller gets for his item is almost always limited to something less that a recognized secondary dealer would sell the piece for. (Yes, there have been a few exceptions.)<<

I confess a small sense of satisfaction after my tirades here and years back on AOL against closed pricing. A free market with open pricing allows buyer and seller to meet under fair conditions.

One might go so far as to speculate that HL secondary pricing over the last few years was, in part, a result of the closed pricing policies adopted by several major Internet vendors. What we may be seeing is a market reaction to these practices. It remains to be seen if this reaction is an over-reaction.

Prices will rise generally only if the number of collectors continues to increase. For every increase 'N' in HL collectordom there is some percentage of 'N' that are new Wackos (le Wacko Nuevo) or Wackos-to-be (proto Wackos). The general rise in I-Way users is also bringing heretofore unknown-Wackos (Wacko obscuro)to the broader marketplace.

E-Bay and other such marketplaces can only help to increase the number of HL collectors. Free at last, free at last. I think its great.

Rgds,
__
/im (fascinating to see a set of 2nd Reunion thumbnails go for ~$130)
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 03-02-99).]

I realize that this is an old topic, but the discussion has been raised by my harbour master that I may have an expensive hobby that is due for a market correction.
Yes, I have purchased pieces from ebay with success. I have also gotten some Amazing Steals at a flea market (Hilton Head LE for $80) and have a dealer in a nearby state that has been very nice about showing me what he has that is on the HTF list. Now my local dealer has started raising his prices on R@R to the Greenbook price.
I guess this long oration is to ask, is my local dealer taking advantage of his position of being only one of a handful in the state?
From lighthouse challenged Arkansas, where we are all in contempt!

E-bay just gives you another outlet to purchase Harbour Lights. If the prices are not to your liking, then you can look at dealers and secondary marketers.The more time you look the better deals you can come up with. This forum has also been a good source to purchase lighthouses to add to your collection.

Steve

Thanks for bringing this thread back into view.

Let's see how have various factors worked to serve the secondary market:

1991-94 "What's a Secondary Market?"


1995-96 "Can you help me find a St. Augustine?"
A few 'secondary dealers'. If you wanted to buy a Hilton Head, you contacted HL and they sent you a 'referral' list of people who could help. Few collectors were communicating with one-another.

1997-98 Growing secondary sources.
AOL and the Internet. Collectors now have places to ask questions, heat up their hobby and buy or sell or trade Harbour Lights. 1997-98 Reunions bring together hundreds of collectors who go home with contacts.

1999-?? eSecondary.
Many more collectors are 'connected' and, through an Official Web Site, these Forums, and ebay they 'get to know' other collectors. Doing business with someone you 'know' is easier. If you bought a few 'extras' when Alcatraz, Cape Canaveral and Thomas Point were HTF, you can now be a 'secondary' dealer and sell them through the Forums. (Thanks AOL).



[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 04-13-99).]

I'm an avid fan of eBay and check it several times daily. If you go there often enough you will find some great deals. It amazes me that one day a bid will be over the retail price, and another day a similar HL can be won for much less than retail. I guess you have to be in the right place at the right time. It pays to shop!

The only drawback is that of dealing with strangers. I must say I have had nothing but positive experiences so far on eBay. Like Harry Callahan said, "Do you fell lucky?"

Bob

As most of you have noticed there is a set of Southern Belles on ebay that has a few hours left on the auction. The reasonable value of this set has been surpassed and now the madness has set in. I hope all of the numbers match at where its at now. Should be interesting to see where it ends up.

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ORV



[This message has been edited by orv (edited 04-23-99).]

I use Ebay a lot and have great experiences except with one seller...Elvisrlz. I was told the piece was in stock before the auction, yet after six weeks, I still have not received it. When I asked them to check on it I was told they had no record of a transaction and the credit card was not charged. Today, my charge statement reflects that it was charged -- one month ago. I'm waiting for a response from them but I want everyone to be on alert with this seller.

I'll watch out for that user ID. It's too bad you had a bad experience. I quick call to your credit card people should give you a credit plus their will be a charge back on Elvisrlz. "Knock on wood" I've had all good experiences dealing on eBay, except for eBay cashing my payment checks and not crediting my account for almost two weeks. Such is life I gues..

Bob

Normally I don't like to name drop in the forums, but since the name has already been dropped, I too have had a problem with this dealer.

I recieved the HL that I bid on, but when I found it on my doorstep, it was shipped in the original light blue HL box. The box corners were dented and tape and mailing label were attached all over the box. The piece itself wasn't damaged, but the box was. Not the safest way to ship a piece IMHO.

The lesson is, make sure you know how the piece is going to be shipped. It is always good to ask questions BEFORE bidding.

Caviat Emptor,

-Todd

Todd and others,
Thank you for posting your warnings about e-bay. I've used it several times with nothing but positive experiences, but I never would have guessed someone would ship with no protection for the original blue Harbour Lights box. It gives me shivers just thinking about it! Now I'll know to ask about how the piece will be packaged.

Concerning the party you folks have been discussing, they are showing 32 negative responses. I can understand people occasionally having misunderstanding but 32 is excessive and definitely a pattern. Also if you look at the responses to the complaints you will see a attitude of someone I would not deal with. I use and watch ebay quite a bit and the best advice I can give is:

1 Always read the descriptions as much as for what's not said as well as what is said.

2 Read the other parties feedback. This is the cornerstone of using ebay. Use it properly as it does affect other users ability to get a good price on their item, but if a person is a scammer then everyone should know.

3 Email them and ask questions. If a seller ignores my feedback for over 48 hrs then odds are good I wont be bidding on their item. I find it very rude for a seller to not return queries, no matter how trivial.

4 Know the value of what you are bidding on, otherwise you will get caught up in a ridiculous bidding war, or wind up paying too much in order to not be outbid.

Good Luck and remember Buyer Beware.


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ORV



[This message has been edited by orv (edited 04-24-99).]

After reading the above messages about 'elvisrlz@aol.com' I read through 20 or so pages of buyer feedback on this UserId. This is available to anyone and speaks for itself.

I'd make the following 3 additional suggestion for anyone purchasing an HL Limited Edition on ebay.

1. Get the specific number of the piece before you bid. (Not the edition number - the number w/in the edition, for example 4327/5500). If they have not done so, ask the seller to post this number in their auction. That way you know which specific item you are bidding on and this *may* (no guarantees) deter someone from auctioning pieces they "do not have in stock". If you don't get the piece matching the advertised number then the sale is not as advertised and you have legitimate grounds to reject the piece if you choose.

2. Get their email address. (Only available if you've registed w/ ebay.) Then search for the seller's e-mail address on dejanews (www.dejanews.com) to see if that e-mail address has any transactions elsewhere. Before the rise of ebay, many sellers offered pieces in newsgroups (rec.collecting, etc.). Dejanews has quite an archive of newsgroup postings going back many years. You may not find any posts from the e-mail address, but then again you may. There is no deal too good or going too quickly which you don't have time to check out. This is simply part of the due diligence you owe yourself before you bid.

3. If you bid, print out the page describing the item and keep it until any transaction completes.

Saving a few bucks is sometimes a high price for the aggravation it costs you to deal with someone who doesn't follow through. If you win an auction and send off your money, there can be a period of anxiety waiting for the item to arrive. This is not a knock on ebay, ebay works if the people doing the transaction are honest.

Fwiw - outside of ebay I've never heard of a collector getting cheated by another collector on an HL secondary market purchase. This observation is made based on 4+ years of buying HL models. If the price is close for a piece you want, I'd consider patronizing the folks who advertise here in The Marketplace. Over the years we have shown ourselves to be an amazingly honest group (pats on the back, all).

Final note: in his latest (Winter?) 'Guiding Lights' HL newsletter, Jim Rutherford (hlsg@aol.com) has a nice article on using ebay.

Really Final note: while strolling through ebay prior to this post, I couldn't help but notice someone is advertising an HL#125 (yep, Portland Head) and has a picture of a model made out of cheap stained glass with an electrical cord running out of it. It does look like PH, but HL it ain't. :-)

Rgds,
__
/im

[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 04-25-99).]

Shame on me....

Without doing my homework (reading this forum) I went and bid on seven different HL auctions, and won all seven. I was shocked that I was'nt being outbid with the attractive prices, now I know why. This "elvis" guy has taken an awful lot of people for a ride in the past two months. What I believe I will do is pay by cc, and hope for the best. As long as I use my card I "should" be protected against any and all fraud. If in fact I get the items as described for the prices I have bid I will be completely happy with the transaction.

Wish me luck!!!

Does anyone have a standing complaint with him that has yet to be resolved?, if so please post....

Bottomfeeder

Thanks Orv for the email!!!!!

TSM heritage thread