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LLOM shock #58655 12/14/06 07:39 AM
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Lighthouse Duo Offline OP
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I've just had the second dealer here in the UK tell me, that LLOMs are "out" ... there won't be any more.

I can't believe that! I wonder... does this mean there really aren't going to be any more or does it mean the UK dealers can't get any more or is it a bad excuse for the dealers not wanting to get involved with HL?


Margret
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Re: LLOM shock #58656 12/14/06 10:55 AM
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Bob M Offline
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I'm not privy to what happens behind closed doors at Harbour Lights, but my personal opinion is that the LLOM are quite popular and a good seller.

Could there be a problem with the profit margin as compared to the LE's, OE's, etc.? Is Harbour Lights reluctant to raise the retail price fearing a negative response from LLOM Collectors in the form of not buying them?

I don't know what to tell you on this subject other than maybe the additional cost of shipping them to other than the US dealers is becoming cost prohibitive. Maybe the UK dealers just can't sell enough of them to make the investment in stock worthwhile.

:rolleyes: Bob :rolleyes:

Re: LLOM shock #58657 12/14/06 11:23 AM
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rscroope Offline
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Shipping is definitely a 'killer' especially across the Pond. Anything except books normally costs more than the purchase. Imagine what it costs for that cargo box from Asia to Maine in the first place.


LONG ISLAND BOB
Re: LLOM shock #58658 12/14/06 12:36 PM
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Quote:
I don't know what to tell you on this subject other than maybe the additional cost of shipping them to other than the US dealers is becoming cost prohibitive. Maybe the UK dealers just can't sell enough of them to make the investment in stock worthwhile.
I guess postage is and always will be an issue to the Non-US dealers. But what I don't get is, why that should be only effecting the LLOMs. I can get LE's etc. no problem. But LLOMs are like hen's teeth with the dealers. You would have thought they are on the whole cheaper to ship, because they are smaller.

The argument that not enough are sold is probably true. It is a shame that they are not advertised, supported etc. this side of the pond. I would have thought it a HUGE business opportuninty missed.

And the argument, I have heard before, that the British "just don't collect" is not true! There are US companies making money on this market selling collectables. Ask Franklin Mint. They are getting bigger and bigger here. (Not that I am keen on them, but it is an example!)

This is a curious market and no mistake!


Margret
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Re: LLOM shock #58659 12/14/06 01:09 PM
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I do believe that LLOM will continue. As Trooper Bob mentioned, they are quite popular - great detail at the price point. May not make as much per light in profit, but you can sell several of them for the same price as one LE so you make up for it in quantity . . . . I can see how shipping would be a real killer on less expensive items.

Re: LLOM shock #58660 12/14/06 11:30 PM
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mombo Offline
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Margret, you will just have to make those purchases when you come to the States on one of your visits!

Re: LLOM shock #58661 12/15/06 06:39 AM
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Lighthouse Duo Offline OP
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Yes, you are right... but there are currently no visits planned. Not sure how long I can wait smile
It is one good point of eBay! There I can find some! smile


Margret
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Re: LLOM shock #58662 12/23/06 10:27 PM
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Rock Offline
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If it's true, there's at least one collector here who won't be shedding any tears over the demise of LLOMs...now let's bury the GLOWs right along with them.

Re: LLOM shock #58663 12/26/06 11:25 AM
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Bob M Offline
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Quote:
If it's true, there's at least one collector here who won't be shedding any tears over the demise of LLOMs...now let's bury the GLOWs right along with them.
Sorry, Rock, that isn't going to happen. GLOW's are getting to be HL Dealers better sellers and I would imagine the LLOM aren't far behind.

I have no exact factual evidence, but I would guess the GLOW's and LLOM out sell the limited editions by five to one. Now if you were a dealer, what would you do?

Thinks of HL collecting as two different worlds, one is the LE world and the other is the tourist/giftware/trinket world. Never lose sight of the fact that dealers must make a profit to stay in business.

smile Bob smile

Re: LLOM shock #58664 12/26/06 11:45 PM
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ericlighthouse Offline
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Rock, it is fine you like only the limited editions, but many of us own some of LLOM and GLOWS as well, so I see no reason to eliminate any of them.


Eric, Florida Keys Reef Lights Foundation; Godfather of Jones Point River Lighthouse; member and District Commissioner of Florida Lighthouse Association et el
Re: LLOM shock #58665 12/27/06 01:49 AM
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Rock Offline
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Well Bob, as usual, you have all the answers...if I were a dealer, I'd do exactly what most of them are doing already, dumping their dusty stock on Ebay in a desperate attempt to clear out store shelves because all of this HL open edition giftware has confused and overwhelmed and disgusted once-avid and loyal customers to the point where they're just not buying anything anymore...

Re: LLOM shock #58666 12/27/06 11:06 AM
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Bob M Offline
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Quote:
Well Bob, as usual, you have all the answers...if I were a dealer, I'd do exactly what most of them are doing already, dumping their dusty stock on Ebay in a desperate attempt to clear out store shelves because all of this HL open edition giftware has confused and overwhelmed and disgusted once-avid and loyal customers to the point where they're just not buying anything anymore...
You will always get an answer out of me, and it isn't always the popular reply the inquirer would like to hear. I like to think of myself as the voice of reason most of the time. Other times you may consider me a "devil's advocate". One thing I'm not, is silent.

Much like you, I would have liked to see the GLOW's fall by the wayside and have Harbour Lights strictly cater to the limited edition collector. You know what? That's never going to happen.

I bought GLOW's for years just to have each lighthouse made by Harbour Lights represented in my collection. Eventually, I worked my way up to a complete collection of LE's (No skinny tower CH-1 though), and I sold all my GLOW's. Now I'm on auto ship for every new LE, AB, and Lens.

Do I have any LLOM? Yes, I own a couple of dozen of those. You know what? I think Harbour Lights did the right thing in offering these inexpensive small lighthouse replicas. It made collecting miniature lighthouses more affordable and much easier to display or store. The LLOM make a great little gift for some special in your life without spending a lot of money.

I think the person who finally opened my eyes about how consumers shop for HL's was our fellow forum member, Jim Awrey from Cape Annie's Light. You probably read the same post where he spoke of consumer/tourists coming into his store wanting to buy a replica of a lighthouse they had seen on Cape Cod, or in the general area. These people didn't care if it was a limited edition. All they wanted was a replica of what they saw. So Jim makes a sale of a GLOW rather than tell them that Harbour Lights makes a truly beautiful limited edition but he doesn't have access to any more of them.

I've shifted gears in my world of Harbour Light collecting. I've now passed the 600 mark and continue to buy and sell. I'm not in the "everything is for sale" mode and there are some very special pieces I would never sell. Other than that, most everything is available for a price. It is not my intention to give anything away, nor is it my intention to leave my collection to anyone in my later years. The ideal situation would be to part with some of my HL's and make people smile that they were able to find a 2-digit flag or other hard-to-find piece they always wanted for their collection. My prices are fair and not premium pricing. Yes, you can take a chance on eBay and buy for less, but as Dirty Harry said, "Do you feel lucky?"

smile Bob smile

Re: LLOM shock #58667 12/27/06 01:47 PM
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To kind of put a different angle on it...

Imagine you're in a wine store (first thing that came to mind). In the back of the store, in a beautiful glass case with a heavy oak frame, is about 50 bottles of fine, vintage French wines. The least expensive one goes for $550. The most expensive is $1100. A fine wine connoisseur walks back to this area and picks up a bottle to purchase to preserve until it is absolutely perfect to drink in his collection. This is the equivalent of the limited edition Harbour Light and the devout LE collector.

Around the fine bottles are less expensive, but still nice wines. They may be from different regions, or perhaps they're more recent vintages of the fine wines in the back. Several people are walking around this part of the store, picking up the bottles and filling their baskets. They're paying no mind to the fine wines in the back, because they are too expensive for them, and they know they would not be able to appreciate them. These are the casual purchasers that buy the GLOWs.

Finally, all the purchasers go to the register. The one person with the $700 bottle is there among the five with $150 in less expensive wine. Near the front of the store are various knickknacks, from bottle openers to wine stoppers to playing cards. These items range from $2 to $15. Each of the casual purchasers picks up one or two of these items, adding them to their cart and tab. These little inexpensive, impulse items are the LLOMs.

Each person checks out. The connoisseur hands over his Centurion American Express card to pay for his $700 bottle. Then each following person hands over their more humble "regular" American Expresses or Visas or MasterCards to pay for their $150 purchases. But when the line is all cleared, the store has actually made more from five $150 purchases ($750) than it has from the one expensive bottle of wine. And the smaller purchases will come all day, while that may be the only expensive bottle bought all day, week or month.

So in the end, if you get 150 customers spending an average of $150 in the store, you made $22,500 on those customers that day. You only made $700 on the expensive bottle. Which is going to keep your business afloat?

Now let's apply this to HLs (maybe with a little stretch). The expensive bottle is the Limited Editions. They are more known to collectors, who avidly plop down $60-150 for a piece to add to their collection. These people (which is most of the CF members) appreciate the fine detail and quality of the piece, with no regard to price. They want it because it is their passion, just as expensive wine may be to some.

The GLOWs are selling to those who want the same quality, but don't want to spend the money. Or perhaps they are for those who want to buy a model of a light that was retired early as an LE, but can't afford the hundreds. They don't care if it has the collectable value of an LE, they just want a high-quality replica for a reasonable price. Maybe they want to memorialise a vacation, or a special life event. They want to put it on the mantle, not in a protected curio. They're going to buy these open-edition pieces. And there are MANY more of these people than LE collectors.

The LLOMs are very frequently impulse buys, just like the bottle openers and corks. They're $15 or so, a nice price for a parent that wants to buy a little something for their child, or for people who just see it and think of it as a nice little memory. They're going to buy the most volume, picking up the LLOMs at outlets where regular HLs are not ideally sold. This large quantity of $15 "giftware" sold is the bread and butter of the company.

So basically...the LEs are the hallmark of the company, their pride and joy. But the GLOWs and LLOMs sell many-fold more. In the end, it's the latter two that make the money for the company, so that YOU can go out there and buy more LEs.

Harbour Lights is a business. It does not sit there to do what the collectors do. We are lucky enough that they cater to our whims as much as they do. Most companies don't give two hoots about what their dedicated followers think (or else the USA would be overrun with Land Rover Defenders). They are in it for the money, and to survive. In the end, that's Harbour Lights' goal in the end, too. We collectors are just along for the ride.

Have GLOW prices killed LE values? I really don't know. I think we tend to scapegoat when it comes to that subject. But I do know that some people (and there's more than one) have to stop living in 1997 and realise that Harbour Lights ain't worth what they used to be. If you're really a "Type A" collector, you won't care.

Re: LLOM shock #58668 12/27/06 01:55 PM
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Bob is totally right.
His statement is very un-popular and if you want forum support around here all you have to say is how much you despise the GLOWS and how they are destroying the value of the LE. Well all of that use to be true, but times have changed and as dealers see it, the new collectors are now dominating the HL collecting atmosphere. As we were first collecting we had the luxury of finding the lighthouse we visited or that was our favorite. Even 97 when I started most of my collecting I could find many of the lighthouses that I visited, from a HL dealer. There was a few that was untouchable like the southern Bells but other than that I was able to buy all the other southern lighthouses from a HL dealer. I even had the excitement of watching each year as my favorite lighthouses would be produced and had the blessing to be able to purchase it from my favorite dealer, not ebay.

The new collectors want to do what we did

The new collectors want to do what we did. Be able to visit a lighthouse and then in the near future be able to purchase a new lighthouse from a reliable dealer. They don’t want to do the ebay scene and only buy the lighthouse with a low number or a lightning rod. They don’t want the hassle of checking out the seller and worry about getting ripped off.
(That is for the serious collectors to do.)
They just want the same luxury that we were given when we started collecting lighthouses.

This is why the GLOW’s and little lights are now more important then they ever were.
If the new collectors can’t find the light they are looking for from Harbour Lights they will look elsewhere. The new LE’s are fantastic but they are mainly designed for the collector, not the tourist or novice. I have been saying this for a couple of years now but Jim Awrey has hands on experience to make a home run with this.

Old collectors have some valid points

Now the old collectors do have some valid points about the Glows.
Harbour Lights should have never numbered them and try to make them a semi-collectable. They were to be a filler and should have been designed that way.
The signature series should have never been made and they should not have been made the same size as a limited edition. The GLOWs should have been totally designed to fill the gap that was needed for, tourist, novice and beginner collectors, not take over to be a collectable.

Improvements that was done to the GLOW's

The best thing HL has done with the GLOW’s is making them lighted. This separates them more from being a LE. It also attracts our newer generation that likes the more high technical stuff instead of art and craftsmanship.

More corrections needed for the GLOWs and Harbour Lights

1. The correction HL needs to make is not to stop making the GLOW’s but keep it up with their individuality. Besides being lighted they need the numbering thing to stop. This will help keep the Glow’s from getting confused with a collectable.

2. The LE Christmas pieces should not be lighted. They should be like the rest of the LE’s as not to be blended in with the glow's . I think it would be okay to make a lighted GLOW Christmas piece of one of the past LE’s plus an unlighted LE Christmas piece. This may be a solution for both worlds.

3. Have some type of training for their dealers for guiding their buyers. It is how the dealer informs the potential buyer is how well the buyer will develop into a life long HL collector. Read my story in the HL book on Collecting. The dealer use to be very important in the development of a collector and still should be. ( I could write up a training book for HL dealers if they want me too.)

4. We need the direct link to the forums from the HL website reestablished. There is just too much good feed back and collectors support here not to be utilized.

5. Dealers should be required to check out the forums and to follow pertinent information. I have no problem with dealer feed back, but I think any dealer on the forum should be identified as a dealer. Maybe a new title should be made on the forum for identifying dealer. Dealers are important in our collecting world but this forum is for HL collectors and we would have to make sure dealers did not dominate it or general opinions. (Jim, I am not picking on you. I have enjoyed all your comments and they have been very imformative)

The LLOM is no threat to collecting

The LLOM is no threat to collecting LE’s. They are two small and just don’t fit in with a LE collection. I feel the LLOM compliments the LE and gets people interested in Lighthouses and is a stepping-stone for collecting LE’s
Harbour Lights keep up the good work with the “Little Lights Of Mine”


DANIEL
Re: LLOM shock #58669 12/27/06 02:43 PM
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DANIEL Offline
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Conclusion

The collectors on this forum of course are always welcomed to their opinion.
But we need to be more objective to the changing times.
The GLOWs and the LLOM are very important to the income of HL and in turn is very important to us LE collectors. In other words they pay the electric Bill.
We also need to make new forum members feel comfortable talking about GLOW’s and LLOM. It was my idea to add the forum for Open editions and accessories. I felt that us established collectors were not well versed on the other HL products and needed some feed back about them. I hope that collectors of GLOW and LLOM take advantage of that forum and enlighten us on them. Things to talk about.

1. How about the best GLOW and LLOM of the year.
2. What is your favorite?
3. How about variations. Anybody found any variations on any of these?

All these are topics that could be stated in the Harbour Light General Product Forum.

Maybe the forums would have more members if the GLOW and LLOM collectors felt like equals and a part of this forum.
I am not doing any finger pointing. I would probally have to point to myself a couple of years ago. I am just trying to open everones eyes, like mine was over two years ago.


DANIEL
Re: LLOM shock #58670 12/28/06 02:07 PM
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From Tony Constantino:

Quote:
Happy New Year!

First, let me assure everyone the LLOM Collection will continue to be an offering from Harbour Lights. Simply, there is a demand for these finely detailed Replicas.

Additionally, in 2007, there will be several Limited Edition LLOM with special “back stamps” created for lighthouse restoration projects. (Other LLOM dealers will probably be able to order non-numbered versions of the same Little Light with the standard backstamp.)

As for distribution in the UK, the Harbour Lights Distributor did not have the demand to sell the line profitably and had to make the difficult decision to stop selling the line.

I am confident Margret will find any US Harbour Lights Dealer willing to ship her whatever and whenever she wants; until I find a new UK Distributor.

Re: LLOM shock #58671 12/28/06 02:09 PM
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I recall Marget commenting on how much the British Post collects for customs items and that 'gifts' are not charged this fee (which is close to 75% of the cost of a Little Light, as I recall.)

I'll start a new thread for Margret's LL Wish List and I, for one, would be happy to donate a Little Light to her cause as a gift.

Click Here

Re: LLOM shock #58672 12/29/06 11:00 AM
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John
This is a great idea.


DANIEL
Re: LLOM shock #58673 12/31/06 01:50 PM
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Rock Offline
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Well the "new" collectors can help themselves to the "new" HL all they want...I for one have been, am, and will be spending my collecting dollars elsewhere.

Re: LLOM shock #58674 12/31/06 03:46 PM
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Rock - It's too bad that you think the way you do. We all have to be flexible enough to go along with the flow. I have never cared for GLOWS, but, they have their place in the scheme of life. It has not changed my collecting of limited editions, it has increased my pleasure in the limited editions because I'm lucky enough to have gotten started when there was the chance of owning all the limited editions. The LLOMs are beautiful to own and had they been around when I started collecting it might have been a tossup on what I would have collected - Limited Editions or LLOMs.

It's a shame that you feel the way that you do but we all have to do what we have to do. You shouldn't make others feel bad if they get a pleasure from collecting the GLOWS or LLOMS just because you feel differently.


Rich
Re: LLOM shock #58675 12/31/06 04:01 PM
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I enjoy my LLOM's and GLOW's along with my Limiteds. I've also seen first hand how the LLOM's can catch the interest of a child and develop a new collector.

To date there have been approx. 178 LLOM's produced, and I hope they keep coming. The detail is outstanding, and the price makes them affordable for the first time collector...not to mention that they take up less real estate.

Wish I had more of them in my own collection. smile

Judy


Judy

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