Kim Andrews asked me to post this message about the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum:

Yo Kimmer,

While I fully concur with HL's stance on not participating in or controlling the secondary market, I suggest you not take action to discourage it by eliminating the B/S/T section permanently from the forums. As we are all aware, the exisitence of a secondary market for HL collectibles is a necessary condition for their continued success. As I'm sure you'd agree, there are extremely few collectibles that live long and prosper without a secondary market.

Presumably some of your concerns are over liability - these are, of course, perfectly legitimate. While IANAL (standard on-line speak for 'I Am Not A Lawyer'), here are a few suggestions:

1. State whatever caveats are necessary to eliminate your liability and address your other concerns in a paragraph preceding the forum. And/Or,

2. Have the forum run and monitored (as it is now) by a non-HL employee. Here I'm thinking of something like the 'Retired@Retail' section. And/Or,

3. Put the B/S/T forum (or all the forums) on a physically separate web site which easily can be linked to and from this site.

Also, please consider the following line of reasoning. The secondary market does and will continue to exist regardless of HL's official stance. Having the B/S/T forum available does a valuable service to collectors because it is one of the few ways folks can gather and track information on current secondary prices and scarcity. While any secondary market trade, sale. or purchase is obviously between the parties involved, public availability of pricing information goes a long way towards reducing the chance that someone will get ripped off. (not to put too fine a point on it) This in turn enhances the collecting experience for all. (I am a strong advocate for open secondary pricing - forums such as this are one of the last refuges for this information - the secondary markup dealers don't like open pricing, but collectors really need it).

Also consider one of the fundamental rules of successful web sites - don't give someone a reason to leave your site, and if you must, make sure they have an easy way to get back. Having this forum under your control - in some fashion - will enhance the site's ability to draw and keep an audience. Give 'em a reason to come here, not a reason to leave.

As far as fee based B/S/T - a goodly part of the success of these forums was due to the fact that folks left AOL because of their policy to seek fees for the posting of ads. ( I trust you're fully aware of all this - if not, JC can fill in the details). And for gawds sake don't send us to one of those tacky auction services. :-)

From the Fog Signal Building,
__
/im

To begin, thanks for your answer to removing B/S/T. Although I think as a collector that HL should not start to take away what has been made available, but to enhance these services to incourage more collector and prospetive collectors to come on board.

I agree with Tim, put a statement crom HL saying that you in no way endorse or control the pricing of the B/S/T section.

Kim, HL needs to consider their collectors (customers) on this matter, prehaps a poll.

My vote YEA KEEP B/S/T.

Thanks Bob

My vote is also to keep B/S/T in its old forum configuration. I feel this is an essential area for a great many collectors who are trying to "fill in the gaps", or who are just now getting into collecting Harbour Lights.

I agree with Younger & Associates using a non-endorsement clause at the beginning of the B/S/T area. As it is now, the web adderss of these forums isn't even www.harbourlights.com If you look, it is www.lighthousekeepers.com

Sharp eyed visitors will notice that the message at the bottom of every page was changed yesterday to a form of disclaimer.

Also As Todd notes, the forums still actually reside on LighthouseKeepers.com. This was primarily a matter of convenience for me since moving the forum messages meant modifying the URL in every message that has ever been posted. FYI.

I now have software that will do that globally, but haven't implemented it yet pending the outcome of the current study.

John

Hi Kim,

I speak as someone who has done a lot of research on using the internet to acquire collectibles. My wife is about to have a book published on the subject, which explains my researching collectible lines other than the only one that really counts (HL).

Most collectible manufacturers have web sites these days and very few of them make any mention of the secondary market. Yes, we all know a line will die if it doesn't do well on the secondary market. But we also need to realize that a company can do themselves a great deal of harm if they so much as give the impression of trying to influence the secondary market in any way, shape, or form.

Think about it - if their sales start to slide and they want to pump them up again, buying a bunch of bears, or whatever on the secondary market could make the price skyrocket. This generates news in the collectible world. If the news gets around to enough people, you get the Beanie Baby-effect. People buy several of each new item they think might go up in value at some point in the future. And the company's sales go through the roof.

If it gets out that Bill's Bears was the one who originally started the rush, there goes the market.

Before John found the forum software, many of us bought our secondary marktet Harbour Lights from posts we read on Nico Derk's Harbour Lights BBS. I know I've probably picked up 10 or 15 from there. He has a nice feature that will email each new post to you.

Maybe the solution is as simple as putting in a link to Nico's BBS. John could either link to a new window or he could open a large frame in the current window and place Nico's page there.

And if that's not a good idea, I'll put up a Harbour Lights page of my own where people can buy and sell lighthouses.

I'm pleased to state that we have worked out the concerns that Harbour Lights felt with the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum.

The decision is that I will maintain all the Forums independently at www.LighthouseKeepers.com for the convenience of all collectors.

Harbour Lights site will provide a link to the forums as it now does with a disclaimer of the independent nature of the Collector Forums.

I'll have this in effect late this evening, including the access to the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum with all the posts it had before it was blocked.

Thanks for your comments and patience.

John

I would just like to say thank you to Harbour Lights and John personally for resolving any conflicts concerning the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum. You have put the collector's needs at the top of the list, yet once again.
Thank you

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-RodW

Kim Andrews asked me to post this message:


(We're gonna have her posting her own messages soon; she's still making that transition from Whale Oil Lamps to the Internet... But she's coming along great!)

Thanks Kim and thanks as always to St. John!