Yesterday, I reviewed some of the numbers for the Collector Forums.

We've been around for about 10 years now. Born out of the decision by AOL to limit the kinds of discussions which would be permitted on the Lighthouse Collectibles board. (Ironic when you read on...)

Here are the question:

Are we useful to those who use us? Are we useless to those who don't use us? Could we be doing more for more people? Should some people 'participate less'? Are their limits to what we should permit or allow?

Some points:

1. As of yesterday, the number of official 'members' of the Collector Forums was 5,484.

This is misleading -- not just a little, but a lot. It's because when someone REGISTERS to post they become a 'member' whether they are permitted to actually post or not. These days, there are many, many attempts to join and post meaningless and useless messages to our board (and others). In other cases, people who should and do register enter their wrong email address and never get a confirmation message. Some people have more than one account because they forgot their previous identitity and started a new one.

If we count the number of people who have posted at least one time since they joined, our 'member count' would be 1,221 -- 20% of the 'advertised' membership of 5,484.

If we limit the number of posters to those who have posted in the past five years, it's down to 614. 90 of those people have posted in the last 30 days.

2. While the number of posting members is relatively small, that's not to say the Collector Forums are not 'relative' to them. This is an affinity community. You opt in because you want to and, hopefully, because you share an interest in lighthouses and collecting lighthouse relicas.

It appears that about 200-250 people drop by the Collector Forums each day. No way to tell how many different people that is over the course of a month. This number includes those who post and those who cruise through. If we were to restrict viewers to those who are members (as some boards do) we'd have a better handle on this (and probably more registered members.)

3. No question that our ebb and flow of participating members has fluctuated with the popularity of Harbour Lights, Lighthouses, and collecting in general.

People's interests change, financial situations change, some lose interest, some move to smaller spaces with less room for collections, a few pass away, etc. etc.

4. Content varies widely, but yesterday, I noticed there were 7 active topics. Of those only 1 was about either a lighthouse or a lighthouse collectible. Some were 'poems', 'welcomes', 'personals'. These are the flotsam and jetsom of relationships. (That's not a negative comment.) It's what people talk about when they get together with old friends.

One content that bothers me is that the Trading Post is a 'dumping ground' for collections. Generally the people who post these 'going out of collecting business' lists are either new to the CF or, if they have been members for years, have only posted a number of times less than the number of fingers they have in total.

Why does this bother me? For those who still have a collection and/or those who are buying pieces to add to a collection, selling at below wholesale prices devalues the 'book value' of our collection.

Providing a showcase for below-wholesale sales hurts the remaining legitimate Harbour Lights dealers.

Should limits be placed on Trading Post posts? If so, what kinds of limits and how would they be instituted and managed?

Here's one example. If someone had a collection of 50 pieces, dumping them through eBay would have a certain cost, more when you factor in PayPal fees.

Why are we providing this free service to new members? Ones who don't participate in any of our fund-raising efforts or events. They are trading on the trust existing members have of one another that they won't get 'taken' or 'cheated'. A chance they might take from an unknown eBayer.

My purposes in starting this thread include getting some of those members who visit but don't post involved again. To get some visit only individuals to join and post and to have some useful discussions on how to revitalize the Collector Forums.

If you'd rather send a comment by email, please use this address: Webmaster@LighthouseKeepers.com indicate in your email whether you want me to post your comment anonymously or NOT AT ALL.

John - To generalize an answer about these Forums I will try and remember to the best of my ability(It's hard when your old. Right BoBO) what I said about these Forums several years ago. I think that I said "I've visited many other lighthouse forums and it doesn't get any better then this Forum". Views are expressed here that may or may not make some members mad, but, we have the right to express these thoughts, unlike several other Forums I can mention. We are not ousted from this Forum for expressing our views like other forums. We have a clean Forum because of the monitoring that goes on. I would much rather have 60 members with clean thoughts then 5400 members with foul thoughts that I would be embarressed to have my family visit. That being said, I still think these Forums are the best thing around.

Now to the question of the Trading Post. I feel that the right to use our Trading Post to sell HL products should be restricted to members with at least 50 posts to their credit, no matter how long that takes. When they become a WACKO, they should also have the right to list in the Trading Post. Most of us have full collections or access to fellow WACKOS that can help us find what we are looking for. All of us can do without one time post NEWBIES trying to sell their wares and save the cost of Ebay. When I first started selling and buying off the Trading Post(Marketplace) I looked at the sellers post numbers and figured anyone with 50 posts or more was a pretty safe bet to deal with. That has never proven false. Let the buyer/seller beware but let's make the seller put in his/her fair share of posts before allowing them to sell their wares. I think that number should be at least 50 posts.

Looking back in time, as my old memory serves me, I seem to remember that at least once before you (John)purged the non posters and reduced our member numbers by a large amount. Is it still possible to do that? It may reflect our true size more clearly.

I also have no problem with limiting the Trading Post to wackos. As we have all seen, it's pretty easy to get there if that's your goal, and it may prevent the dumping by one time posters.

Rich,

What do you mean old?

I needed a good laugh today.

Yes, let's limit the ability to post in the Trading Post to 50 (WACKO Status). And if there's a way to do it, let's also note that the Flag Number MUST be included in the post. Not knowing the Flag Number is an irritation to say the least.

bobo

I agree 100 per cent. Limit the ability to post in the Trading Post to 50 (WACKO Status).

Yep, it's still possible to do; might be a bit of work, but still possible.

Another thing that would be possible is to remove the line on the home page that shows how many 'members' there are.

Our version of the software is WAY out of date. They don't even update this version anymore. More recent software by the same company may provide more information such as number of 'reads' a thread has received, etc.

For about $250, we could have these forums converted to the most recent version. I think we have the funds.

I think we should make the TRADING POST a WACKO
only post.I do not post very often but do look
at the Forums at least 4 times a week.
RIP

I'm a bit confused, Rich. Do you mean that members with fewer than 50 posts would not be able to VIEW or POST to the Trading Post or just would not be able to POST there?

Sounds like a plan, but who gets the job of super sleuth, or can that (blocking someone from selling his/her collection or a single piece if they haven't reached "WACKO" status) be programmed into this site?

Sandy

P.S. Also be interesting to see how many real subscribers we do have by culling the list.

John,

I think we mean that only WACKO's may post. At least that's what I mean.

For goodness sake, spend the $250. We need the upgrade.

Sandy,

I'm postive that John with handle it with a program modification.

bobo

The way the software is now, to limit those who could post to WACKOs would mean that each WACKO would have to have his/her record modified to this particular forum. TOO Much work.

It MIGHT be possible to make this a PRIVATE forum with only WACKOs to access it. Not sure on that yet.

John - I meant that to POST to SELL on the Trading Post should be limited to WACKOS or above. Anyone that is a Forum member, irregardless of the number of posts, could read the Trading Post. This is my suggestion, and if possible, could be made in conjunction with the member receiving his/her WACKO Status. If this isn't possible, then limit the viewing of the Trading Post altogether to WACKO and above if that is our only choice. I also vote to update the Forums at $250.00.

Cleaning out non-members is a one by one effort I do believe. Educated guess based on the number of applicants that are rejected this week would be that 4000 of the registered people are not allowed to post. Thats a lot of one by one effort, and the process is not a simple one.

I like the idea of limiting posting in the Trading Post to Wacko and above. I don't think we want to limit viewing to Wackos because many of those who might be shopping would possibly be the newer members so we would hurt ourselves.

I am frustrated by the dumping that goes on here. I can understand a person who needs the money or room just wants to move their HL to a new owner, but John is right that it devalues everyone's collection. Many of you know that Mike Kaiser and I agreed to help Fred's estate by selling his collection, a very complete one. While we are not expecting premium prices for the newer models, having an unknown list their collection at 25-30% of retail makes everyone think this is the "going" price. This is not always the case. There are lights among the newer releases that do carry their value.

There are in some cases too many sub-varieties of related topics. However, there are often valid and fun conversations going on in the many diverse forums. This really is a big extended family. Many have gotten to know each other here on the net, and a number of us have been fortunate enough to meet in person at HL or other lighthouse events. The conversations in the forums may often take on a hint of the closeness shared by many - the cheap shots (and, I do love to take the occassional cheap shot....), the chiding, the sharing of thoughts are all part of what makes this a great place to spend your time.

Thanks to all who contribute and who continue to share your thoughts and ideas.

The very back bone of the Harbour light forums “Trading Post” actually started all the way back in around 1995 when AOL started the “Lighthouse Collectable” bulletin Board. This very forum was started because in the spring of 1998 AOL decided to band free adds in their Hobbies & Collectibles bulletin boards. The collectors revolted and with Johns webmasters experience the forums was formed. For ten years we have had an open arms policy to all collectors. No charges or restrictions on selling except it be a Harbour light. That is what has made this forum special over all the rest.

We look at the prices on the Trading post and we are horrified to see collectables that we paid $75 to $125 are now being sold for $20 to $30. Our first reaction is to blame the seller. But we need to look at this much closer. There is no way the seller wants to give his collection away for a song. He is just selling them for the going price. There is the quick sale price and there is the long and drawn out get the most out of each piece price. The three members in question, two are members since 2000 and the other since 2004. They are by no way a newbie. They are collectors like you and I that have for some reason decided to cash in. I don’t think we should be restricting members by how often they post while they have been a member for three to seven years.

Another important point I want to make about the Trading post is that almost all lights sold are retired. You very rarely see a lighthouse sold that is less than 3 years old. You see it over and over again the same lights for sale. Mainly the 1996 lighthouses to 2002. Of course these are the years that Harbour lights flooded the market. The market is flooded with these lighthouses and it does not mater what restrictions we put on the Trading Post we are not going to change their market value as long as ebay is around. If you believe $20 to $30 dollars is dumping have you looked at what they are selling for on ebay?

At this time I oppose any restriction on selling at the trading post. It would just be a fruitless waste of time of trying to control the value on lighthouses while ebay is still alive and well. How I look at it if they can’t sell on these forums they will just sell it on ebay.

Now after busting everyone’s bubble here is the good news:
The new owners of Harbour lights are trying real hard to make Harbour lights a collectable again. I have all the confidence in them and I plan on looking to the future in collecting lighthouses and not the past. Except the variations of course.

I second that opinion Daniel!

Robert

I agree with the original premise that selling on The Trading Post should be limited to Wackos. Recently, I mentioned in another thread that we have a number of folks who sign up, post their wares on The Trading Post and we never hear from them again. The point was that some of those sellers are not always forthcoming about the condition of their lighthouses, so I was recommending buying from the oldtimers we know and trust.

Maybe such folks are reading the forums, but, more than likely, they are not. They signed up only to sell their collections. The forums should be much more than just a place to sell your lighthouses; it should be a place where you want to be a member because you have a true interest in the discussions that go on here. Although it's true that we get to know each other and enjoy the friendships we form and the bantering that goes on, our main reason for joining was our interest in lighthouses AND the serious discussions about collecting HL. My two bits!

I agree with Daniel that those that are being sold for $20 to $30 in the Trading Post are from the years HL released 9000 to 9500 edition sizes. And those sellers didn't start out with that price, they have reduced the prices at least once if not twice.

The new smaller edition sizes will keep the price from ever going that low.

I really looking forward to collecting new HL's in 2008 and beyond !!!

Here is another reason not to restrict new members from posting on the trading post.
Newbies don’t always just post a dump list. They want to buy and trade also. There was one just last week wanting to buy a Tori Dawn. I have had newbies email me asking for certain lighthouse and I always refer them to the Trading Post to post a wanted list. I would guess we have probably a newbie once a month asking to buy a certain lighthouse. Do we want to lose this opportunity for our collectors to sell some lighthouses?

O’ Ya what about the times when a newbie will have the real goodies for sale, like green waters or a misspelled Split Rock. Do we give up this opportunity for our collectors and pass it over to ebay?

I pretty much agree with what Daniel is saying in both of his above posts. I would suggest one change if it could be done. In the rules for posting at the Trading Post I would like to see the following added or something like it.

"No non-retired Harbour Lights will be listed at below suggested retail"

Or perhaps that would be to hard to police.

just a suggestion....?

Why should we limit ourselves to know what's available out there. I'm more offended by our welcoming messages to obvious 'one-timers'.

As for cleaning out the numbers, we could always ALL reregister.

Not quite sure what you meant Bob... That newbies should be able to sell anything at any price?

I'll jump in with my opinions and responses to those already made-

I'm for the upgrade and i'm willing to contribute to it.

I'm opposed to restricting people from posting in the Trading Post by making them become Wackos- as was pointed out we have some people who have been here a long time with less than 50 posts and some here a short time with hundreds of posts.

I think you have to take the good with the bad- we have restricted the Trading Post to only Harbour lights produscts and I think that is a good thing. I don't think restricting it anymore would be a good thing.

I can understand the idea of wanting to restrict unretired merchandise to not less than retail but there are problems with this- who's going to police it and if the market is dictating that the price be below retail than so be it.

I think that anybody who wants to try and sell something at whatever price they choose should be able to do so. I'm sure that most people here are savvy enough to deal cautiously with those who are newbies and here just to sell.

The majority of people here are collectors and like it or not they don't want to pay anymore for an item than they have to. You would be creating a non-reality based sales zone if the restrictions asked for were enforced.

In the big picture it would have absolutely no effect on the value of the HL product- this is only a very small portion of the market. If a person does not find what they want here they have other places to go to.

If you feel that there should be restrictions on the Trading Post then I'd say it should be on those who post- not on those who view the posts. That is a bit fairer.

The registered members problem is more of one of perception than reality- it's only a problem if you get hung up over meaningless statistics. It's not worth somebody taking an extended amount of time to clear out the bad members info. I say leave it alone until the upgrade and if it can be done more easily then- do it, if not just ignore the numbers.

I'm not a big fan of the idea of having everybody re-register as it might lose some people who don't come often or who think it's a pain to go through that for no good reason. If there is an upgrade then re-registering might make sense to most. I can go with that if it's possible to notify all those currently registered- without overloading somebody's e-mail program with the returned e-mails that would be inevitable with that process.

As to the content of the threads- as always this is an ebb and flo type of thing. We have times when things are very active and mostly HL related and then we go into the periods where things drift a bit. It's always going to be that way- when something happens concerning HL product we swing back into character and hash out that subject.


Dennis

John,

I'm of the opinion that ANYBODY should be able to sell anything HL related at any price they choose to do so at.

It's often seen that a person lists things and has to reduce the price before any interest is shown.

Generally speaking the Market determines what the value is for an item.

Dennis

We should be able to buy at any price.
So by limiting them, you're in effect limiting us.

This might have already been stated.

Just because someone sells some pieces for very low prices, doesn't mean thats the new green book price.

Supply versus demand will always determine the going rate. It just might be lucky for the first person who reads a new Trading Post thread with some low priced peices.

And what about new discoveries that could change the demand?

If the demand changes for a certain piece, that person may really kick themselves later.

Example: All the discussion on the two variations of the Hudson Athens piece may cause many collectors to now want the variation they don't have. It could cause a sudden rise in demand, driving the price above the original retail price.

I'm not saying this will happen for this one, but who knows what others variations will become popular.

Long Live the CF !!!

Yes, Stan, I am all for that !!!!!!!

And as for the restriction on selling ... I think I am for the idea of having to reach WACKO status, before you are allowed to sell. Trouble is, if the software can not support that, who will have the time to police this?

But then I am also for updating the software. In my humble opinion it is always a good idea to have the latest software. (And I am prepared to contribute towards it if that is needed!)

...

John, I think this is one of the biggest attractions and assets of this particular forum. People are FRIENDS and behave towards each other in a rather special manner.

I know that, if I have a lighthouse question, I can come here and stand a huge chance of getting an answer.

I know that, if I can, I enjoy answering such questions.

I know that, if I come often enough and read the active topics (and some old ones) I can learn heaps about lighthouses and Harbour Lights.

I know I feel part of a community of like minded people, who care about the subject of lighthouses and what's more, who care about each other.

How can that be wrong? And if that leads to writing personal things and fun limericks, I for one think that is OK. And if that also means that sometimes there just aren't any lighthouse topics active, I think that is OK too! Tomorrow there will be a lighthouse topic active again!

I just love the idea of this community just being here! And if I can do anything to help make it better PLEASE let me know!

I enjoy having some place to go to talk with others about lighthouses, HL and our families. I feel like I have built friendships all across the country and on the other side of the big pond.

When I look at the trading post, I also look for names I know and it also shows how long a person has been a member.

I am for an upgrade and would be willing to contribute if needed.

The first part of your statement I understand, The second part about being offened by welcomeing messages to odvious "one timers" ? How might you guess that?

Rob

Look for my post in the General forum In the following days relating to NEW PEOPLE

I agree with Paul on this one. We have dedicated members screening new applicants. Everyone who registers at the CF is not being paid to be here and does not benefit financially from being a member. If someone joins just to sell off all or part of their collection, that's okay with me too. It gives our members a chance to get a bargain or two, or maybe find a rare piece.

I feel we're a friendly group and we shouldn't erect barriers and put restrictions on new members other than being respectful to others here at the CF.

:rolleyes: Bob :rolleyes:

1. Yes, please upgrade.

2. Don't change anything.

3. Remember some of us read posts for a long time before posting. Some don't get too upset over the fact the new ones have not posted anything or just have one or two posts.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here but it seems most of the questions revolve around "The Trading Post" forum.

Instead of "The Trading Post" being free , why not collect a small fee to sell items there? This money could be used to improve the entire site...like getting the software updated. This could be a win, win for all involved. (It would also be cheaper than selling an item or collection on ebay).

My comment about Forum selling: Supply and Demand
Art

I'm in the Keep it Open to All Camp, for reasons that are all stated above. IMO, it puts us all at a loss. Besides, who knows when one of those "devalued pieces" is going to be a $30 CH102?

Also...another suggestion...the Land Rover forum I belong to raises many of its funds by requesting an optional 5% donation on all sales made through the sales avenues. It's not required, and we do get some who just join to sell their truck and then run. But the many dedicated members who do donate support the site's cost.

A similar method here on the CF could help offset things. Maybe the dumpers wouldn't pay it, but the dedicated members (who are apparently getting more money per piece anyway) will.

And the software could use an update, I'll agree. I seem to remember there being a notice about the last update at the top of the page around when I joined. That was five years ago.

(Okay, now I feel old, which is especially scary.)

Ladies & Gentlemen, & Sportsfans! Does the three letters "ELL" sound familiar? How about the two letters "WP"? Well if you're new to the CF, ELL stands for Erie Land Light which was our first CF Exclusive. WP stands for Wisconsin Point which is well on it's way to being our second CF Exclusive.

Thanks to the efforts of Dave H, John C, and the rest of the Work Development Team, we have a method of paying for the Collector Forums so that all who wish to join and participate can do it for free. We even take about half of the proceeds and donate to various lighthouse groups for preservation and restoration. That, my friends, is a win-win situation if I ever saw one!

If you don't realize it by now, I against charging anyone to be a registered member here or charging them to use the Trading Post. It could have been a good idea if we had a waiting list to get on this bulletin board, but we don't. Free is good, we shouldn't be messing with what works.

Bob

I'm in the camp to leave the trading post as it is.

I would also be happy to pay for the upgrade to the software as this site has provided me with so much enjoyment.

Been gone all day and Bob beat me to what needed to be said. The members of the CF, along with others who purchased an ELL, have contributed to the fund to pay the server bills.

We do also have the funds to get the updated software, it is just a matter of finding the good tome to do so. I know that John is concerned about the potential to lose some of our information, threads and such since we have to skip up multiple versions. I think everyone can rest assured that we will update as soon as practical, baring any unexpectedly large expense to do so.

Just as there is no practical way to limit posting in the Trading Post, trying to collect a fee (even a voluntary one) would be a major pain in the posterior.

Something that John touched on in his initial post that is very much on target is that the CF should remain open for all to view, whether or not you choose to register. Registering enables one to post and actively participate. I know we have a lot of folks who do stop by to check up on what is happening and enhance their knowledge without choosing to register. That's fine. Hopefully they do benefit from the discussions and knowledge shared.

There is allot of valuable Harbour Light history in those old posts.

Is there anything we can do to help ensure that we will not lose any of the older forum posts? I remember that with two upgrades ago that John asked us to bring our favorite post up to recent times, so that we would not lose them. It might have had something to do with server room. Would that help again if we were to do that?

The key is to back up the files from the current program before doing the update.

The software company says that in transferring to the new software, they SHOULD be able to preserve all the posts, but having the back up will help us in case there's a problem.

When we convert the CF may be down for a couple of days at most.

No one needs to contribute to the upgrade. As Bob and Dave have both noted, we have funds available from the ELL sale for that purpose.

Thanks for all your input in this thread. It has gotten people thinking and posting their thoughts which was a primary purpose.