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#207401 - 07/02/12 05:48 PM Cheboygan Crib Mystery
flacoastie Online
Saint

Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
I was rearranging my lighthouses today and stumbled across this Cheboygan Crib that I didn't even know I had. I have the incorrectly spelled Reunion S/N 27, the correctly spelled Reunion S/N 27 and the incorrectly spelled Reunion Counter Sample with no serial number. All of them have the rectangular block where the information and serial numbers are written on. This piece I stumbled upon has NO RECTANGULAR BLOCK and ONLY STONES where the rectangular block should be. I am totally confused where it came from and didn't even have it in inventoried. Did I ever mention it on the Forums before?

I can post a picture in a year or two since I always have a problem posting or if someone will volunteer I can send them the picture to post.
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Rich

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#207403 - 07/02/12 08:40 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
Webmaster Offline
Saint

Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 13047
Loc: Arizona
Hey Rich --

That one was supposed to be mine. I only got the corrected Crib Light -- you can just send that error one on to me... Thanks.

John
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#207404 - 07/02/12 08:52 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
Mark Wagner Offline
Super Wacko

Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 1613
Loc: Munster, In.
here are Rich's pictures


Attachments
Cheboygan_Crib_Varients_001.jpg

Cheboygan_Crib_Varients_003.jpg

Cheboygan_Crib_Varients_006.jpg

Cheboygan_Crib_Varients_010.jpg

Cheboygan_Crib_Varients_011.jpg



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#207408 - 07/03/12 05:56 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
Mark Wagner Offline
Super Wacko

Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 1613
Loc: Munster, In.
and the last 2


Attachments
Cheboygan_Crib_Varients_012.jpg

Cheboygan_Crib_Varients_013.jpg



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#207409 - 07/03/12 01:28 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
flacoastie Online
Saint

Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
Mark - Thanks for posting these pictures. It would have taken me quite a while to get them uploaded, if ever.

While talking to Harry yesterday after I sent him these pictures, he feels that this probably happened at the factory and was a modification by someone there. He pointed out that the rocks in all other areas are sharp and jagged and these rocks are more rounded. He felt the rectangular flag base was grounded off and these rocks were added since the original mold had the flag base in it. He said he didn't understand how it made it through the quality review they get in the states, but, that stranger things happen. He said he felt that this was a modification and not a variance that affected a whole serial number range. He wondered how many more were done and passed through quality review. Harry also said that without a hands on evaluation that this modification was done by someone with extreme skill by the way the rocks were intermingled and painted and that's why he figures it was done at the factory.

My big problem is I don't remember where I got it from and the fact that it was never entered into my inventory bothers me even more. I expect I got it from Ebay and somehow forgot to enter it due to some fiasco happening at work. The one thing I'm sure about is that this is not a "Rich's Modification Job" as I would have remembered that.

Any help on this would be appreciated and should I list it as a modification or variance. This sort of falls into the same range as the "Admiralpy Head", "Split Rock M^ (upside down V)" and multipe "Mukilteo" repair jobs. I feel it leans towards these and should be a variation. I just wish we had the amount ofmember participation we use to have so we could get more input. Could someone get this info to the Facebook group to see what they say?

I'm adding the following to this post after careful examination with a 10x eye piece of the rock area. There is even a starfish laying on the top of one of the rocks that is actually molded onto the rock. The rocks are a solid part of the base and don't appear to be added on at a later date and the material of the rocks appears to be the same material used for the lighthouse. Also, the paint used appears to be the same type of paint that was used on the rest of the piece,


Edited by flacoastie (07/03/12 10:06 PM)
Edit Reason: added additional information
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Rich

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#207413 - 07/04/12 01:07 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
RMau Offline
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Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 411
Loc: Weeki Wachee, FL
Interesting. It isn't unheard of for overseas contract manufacturers to 'borrow' the basic designs that they make for customer 'A', modify them slightly, and offer them to customer 'B'.

What would be interesting is some how seeing if the 'all rocks' piece is being sold elsewhere around the world.

Where is Lt. Columbo when you need him?

Rick

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#207414 - 07/04/12 01:19 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
flacoastie Online
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Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
Rick - I want to find out if there are others and that is why I posted these pictures which I normally don't do. I've also asked Harry to check with Bill, Nancy and Kim to see if they know something about this. I feel the rocks are ligitimate and I want to know how it came about. I think that this piece might be a first version before they decided to add the rectangular block for the flag information. If you look at a normal production piece you can see where the rocks have been sanded off all around the rectangular base and where the base has been added. It's not so on this piece as the rocks come all the way down to the base where the felt is and along both sides. I also think it may be one, or maybe two, of a kind.
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Rich

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#207415 - 07/04/12 03:05 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
RMau Offline
Wacko

Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 411
Loc: Weeki Wachee, FL
Rich,

Then it seems to be that you are looking at two molds. Harry's conversation with you indicates that the flag block is part of a piece's mold. Your inspection tells you (and you have experience with these things) that the rocks on your unusual piece are an integral part of the piece, not added after it was cast.

So, a question for Harry might be, was it normal practice to have more than one mold in the development of a HL piece? I imagine that it was to some extent. Mold, cast, paint, inspect, approve/disapprove, produce if approved, start over if disapproved. Versions that didn't make the cut were probably supposed to be destroyed. But ...

Rick

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#207416 - 07/04/12 03:25 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
Dave H Online
Saint

Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 7802
Loc: Kokomo, IN
This piece was sculpted live at the 2005 Collectors Reunion on Mackinac. I would imagine if we were to go back to look at the 2005 reunion thread there might be some pictures. I would also think Paul would have pictures of the process. Only time in HL history that the collectors could not only watch the piece being sculpted, they could even help out with a stroke of their own during dinner on the last night.

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#207418 - 07/04/12 01:06 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
flacoastie Online
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Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
Dave - I would love to see pictures of the process and especially a closeup of the rock area. I looked at the pictures in the 2005 Reunion Thread and there were not any closeups of the rocks and it also looked like the Sign had "Reunion" spelled correctly. The piece I have has a "Reuhion" spelling. I've contacted Paul by email and no answer yet. I think I have his correct email.
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Rich

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#207419 - 07/04/12 02:03 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
Dave H Online
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Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 7802
Loc: Kokomo, IN
Hopefully Paul has some close ups that weren't shown in the thread. I was a little tied up during the reunion, but I did make sure to take a turn with the sculpting tool to "make my mark" on HL history.

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#207420 - 07/04/12 04:18 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
Mark Wagner Offline
Super Wacko

Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 1613
Loc: Munster, In.
Dave, do you know what was to become of that piece from the reunion ? were they going to cast a bunch like that ? or was that the original master before the flag was added ? in other words would there be any others ?

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#207426 - 07/05/12 01:58 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
WackoPaul Offline
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Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 8949
Loc: Indy
This couple won the Cheboygan Crib in the breakfast auction. It was the one that was started and finished at the Reunion..




Thread with more Cheboygan Crib images at the Reunion
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#207427 - 07/05/12 02:13 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
WackoPaul Offline
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Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 8949
Loc: Indy
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#207428 - 07/05/12 03:52 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
flacoastie Online
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Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
Well, based on the image of the Cheboygan Crib from the reunion, the piece that I have with Reunion spelled "Reuhion", with rocks instead of a rectangular flag base and signed by Bill, Nancy and Kim appears to be one-of-a-kind. It probably was fabricated at the factory and slipped through the quality check at HLs in San Diego while being signed. Where I got it from is still a mystery and I will contact Ebay tomorrow and see if they can furnish me a history on my purchases.
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Rich

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#207435 - 07/06/12 06:57 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
WackoPaul Offline
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Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 8949
Loc: Indy
After talking to Harry this morning we both came to the same conclution that this piece is a knockoff and that there is absolutely no way that this was done at the factory.. There are many reason why we believe this, but number one is that if it had been done at the factory it would have been done better..

The rocks and paint job don't match and they would match better if someone at the factory did this. Also the no flag on the light would have been caught either at the factory or at San Diego especially since BIL, Nancy, or Kim would have noticed when signing it. Harry is very upset that someone would do this to a Harbour Lights lighthouse that he feels is no longer a Harbour Lights lighthouse without the flag.

This is a knockoff now pure and simple!
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#207436 - 07/06/12 07:46 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
flacoastie Online
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Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
Paul - I agree that this is not your normal produced HLs piece but the fact that Bill, Nancy and Kim all signed this piece confuses me. I have compared their signatures on this piece against pieces that I have witnessed them signing and they match perfectly. I don't feel they would have signed this piece if it didn't go through the assembly line that they had for signing in California.

I still feel that this was a knockoff or early prototype from the actual factory as everything is a perfect match to the other 3 I have which includes the Counter Sample. This falls into the "Admiralpy" spelling catagory that Daniel has. The actual paint job is a perfect match to the rest of the rocks when you see it in person and these rocks were not added after the fact as they seem to be part of the mold even down to the starfish molded into one of the rocks. The only difference that I can see is the rocks are more rounded then the rest of the rocks, but, even than there are some sharp pointed rocks that do not show up that much in the pictures.

As far as I'm concerned, even if it is a knockoff, it's a one of a kind that is done to 100% of the HLs standards.
Every detail that is on the HLs Counter Sample and the 2 pieces I have is exactly the same, including the HLs sticker on the bottom. I have been unable to find the seahorse on any of my 3 other pieces so I can't check for that on this piece. Kim even signed over part of the HLs label on the bottom so the label couldn't have been added later on which leads me back to the factory thoughts.

Where is the seahorse located on this piece?
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Rich

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#207438 - 07/06/12 07:56 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
WackoPaul Offline
Saint

Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 8949
Loc: Indy
It is not a knockoff from the factory Rich there would be absolutely no reason for a person at the factory to spend the time and energy to do this.. It is signed by all three because it wasn't this way when it came through San Diego when they signed it. This was done later by someone for what ever reason and it is Fake..
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#207439 - 07/06/12 08:06 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
flacoastie Online
Saint

Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
Well if someone did it after the fact they did an excellect and undetectable job of not showing where they added the rocks and even molding a starfish into the one rock. Where is the seahorse on this piece?
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Rich

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#207440 - 07/06/12 08:07 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
flacoastie Online
Saint

Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
Also, wasn't there some controversy over the flag location and size on this piece? Or was that another piece?
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Rich

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#207441 - 07/06/12 10:28 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
Mark Wagner Offline
Super Wacko

Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 1613
Loc: Munster, In.
I believe that it is a genuine piece cast by Harbour Lights, ALL of the piece with the exception of the flag area appears to be identical to the piece with the flag intact. The time and energy and expense to create a fake would far outweigh the potential $$$ it would take in unless the fake were produced in mass and since no others have popped up I don't think it was mass produced.

Now, here's what I think may have happened. I remember at some time in the past HL had a piece with some sort of problem (I don't remember which piece) and to get a replacement piece you could send them back the broken off flag and Hl would send out a replacement. The flag only was returned to reduce the shipping cost of returning the bad pieces. And I think that this piece had it's flag removed, possibly because the owner thought he had to do so to get a correctly spelled replacement. Then later someone made a repair and put it up for sale.

Does the piece has the misspelled sign ? If so, that would support my theory, if it is spelled correctly it shoots down my theory as to a motive for the repair job, but either way I firmly believe that it is a genuine HL cast piece with a repair job to the flag area.

That's my 2 cents

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#207442 - 07/06/12 11:07 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
WackoPaul Offline
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Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 8949
Loc: Indy
It started off as a genuine piece Mark, until someone decided to do their own version without the flag.. The only repairs needed were to the sign which wasn't corrected and to the cracks in the tree trunk which are still there..

Putting the rocks instead of the original flag, which was correct, is destroying the piece as a Harbour Lights Lighthouse to both Harry and myself..
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#207443 - 07/06/12 11:12 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
WackoPaul Offline
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Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 8949
Loc: Indy
Quote:
Also, wasn't there some controversy over the flag location and size on this piece? Or was that another piece?


No controversy about the location or the size of the flag only the misspelled Reunion on the sign..
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#207445 - 07/07/12 01:48 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
flacoastie Online
Saint

Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
The sign is misspelled and the cracks are still in the tree so Mark's thoughts are running in the right direction. The flag base being removed and sent back while the person kept the piece is a very possible and probable happening since no one wants to believe the possibility of these piece slipping through the cracks from the factory and Quality Control in San Diego Wonder why all the other mistakes and variance pieces didn't get caught?

Whatever the answer is I am the proud owner of a one of a kind (be it a factory screwup or modified piece) of a one of a kind lighthouse that while no one wants to admit is probably worth a lot more than a normal Ceboygan Crib whether it's a recognized Harbour Lights, a modified piece or a knockoff. And I'm happy with it whatever it is.

Now Paul, please tell me if you think the "APE HATTERAS" and the "ADMIRALPY" are not true Harbour Lights or if you think they were modified to read the way they read? It will be interesting to hear your ideas how they came about. Did the factory do this or did some energetic collector do this in your opinion?
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Rich

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#207446 - 07/07/12 02:30 AM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
RMau Offline
Wacko

Registered: 01/01/70
Posts: 411
Loc: Weeki Wachee, FL
I found some of the old threads about the problems with the first shipments of Cheboygan Crib, and the note from Kim that they would all be replaced. With that, I don't think this is such a mystery piece.

Only a portion of the piece had to be returned to HLs in order to receive a replacement. Some posts said the tree, some said a piece of the tree and some said HLs usually asked for the flag to be returned before a replacement would be shipped.

I'd guess that someone sent back a flag, got a replacement for their Cheboygan Crib, and then tried their hand at making the broken original piece presentable for display. Perhaps sometime after that they decided to sell all or part of their collection, forgetting about the history and condition of this particular Crib.

There were over 500 original Cribs. Almost everyone who posted said at least some of the ones they had were broken. And HLs offered to replace the entire run, broken or not. That's a lot of possibilities for the origin of this particular piece.

If that is what happened, does it make this Cheboygan Crib desirable as a HL oops? If this premise were to be proved, it would mean that this piece as it exists now did not originate with HLs. It would have been modified after its original sale.

Edit - Here is a link to a 2005 thread about the 'at the Reunion' sculpting of Cheboygan Crib. Harry is one of the pictures, holding the base of the piece which clearly shows the flag location sculpted at the same time as the rest of the base

Rick


Edited by RMau (07/07/12 02:42 AM)

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#207449 - 07/07/12 02:51 PM Re: Cheboygan Crib Mystery [Re: flacoastie]
flacoastie Online
Saint

Registered: 10/02/01
Posts: 6030
Loc: Ocala, FL 34471
Rick - Thanks for the link to see how the mold was made. I had already found this link earlier but looked again to make sure it wasn't a different one. Mark's and your idea seems the most logical about a home modified piece. I'll tell you one thing and that is I thought I was good at repairing, but, the person that modified this piece needs to change his job description and go work for a company that repairs collectibles.
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Rich

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