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Losing HL Retailers #20627 01/02/00 04:05 PM
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Kaiz Offline OP
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Over the last couple weeks, in our area, we have seen at least three retailers discontinue the Harbour Light line. Yesterday, we drove over to Buffalo to do some HL exploring and found three more retailers either have or are in the process of eliminating the line.
I am interested in finding out if any other forum members are experiencing this same situation.
In talking to the dealers, each stated that sales were slow and the required space needed to display so many pcs. had become a problem (again, maybe GLOWS should become MINI'S.) Most of these stores carried smaller counts of each pc. and some to be frank, displayed them with the care you would use rearranging with a shovel.
It is my hope these retailers didn't carry the HL banner in the appropiate way to help advance the line. If that is correct, then we will be better without them. But, if my summation is wrong, will this become a continuous trend. In hindsight, did the company address the ed. size and amt. of releases too late? I know this has been beaten to death, but I still believe the Glows are hurting the LE's value too much. There could be other reasons, but it is important to note, that the company is listening to us and is making adjustments. Something, IMHO, many other lines have never done.
I hope the future stays bright for HL and for us the collectors. Maybe more collectible lines need to do what Ferrari does with their cars, produce enough to just meet the demand minus one or two. Very hard to do but at least it looks like Bill and Co. are trying.
Kaiz

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20628 01/02/00 04:41 PM
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Kaiz, I have noticed the same trend in Tidewater Virginia & NE North Carolina. I have stated more than once that the GLOW pieces are hurting the LE's and make the line appear less collectible to some retailers. In addition, we have to factor in that many of the more famous and well known lighthouses have already been produced. Collectors are less inclined to pay the price for owning all or most of the lesser known lighthouses, unless one has a particular reason for buying it (a favorite local landmark, etc.). Compared to last year's prices, even the old desirables (Cape Neddick, Coquille, rev. Hatteras, Portland Head) have declined in value. I realize many of us buy HLs because we love the line and the lighthouses they represent, but many of us would also like to think that our pieces will HOLD their value and continue to appreciate slowly over time, not decline as they have been. Just look at ebay and see the pieces that are being dumped below their original retail value. I think the increase to 10000 piece editions, the GLOWs, the number of releases per year, and the release of "lesser" well known lighthouses have all taken their toll.

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20629 01/03/00 01:06 AM
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There are 6 retailers I regularly visit in my area.

One has about 12 HL on display and I think I am the only person who goes in to look at them. They couldn't tell the difference between a HL and a Hallmark ornament. I never buy there.

A second has at least 50 HL on display (almost all are LE) and 5 or more Anchor Bay Boats. Many of their peices are retired. Their staff and management seem to know almost nothing about HL and they even have brochures and collectors society applications from up to 3 years ago. They seem to have very few HL customers (I have bought there only once) but I keep them in mind as my RESERVOIR for retired pieces. I have thought about offering them to help liquidate/move their stock but I haven't approached them yet.

Since AOL keeps logging me off I will send some more post with the rest of my comments.


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JB


[This message has been edited by JUL (edited 01-02-100).]

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20630 01/03/00 01:19 AM
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(Continuation of previous post)

A third retailer is in one of those humongous "--- Mills" malls that they have around the country. They carry about 30 HL but also seem to know nothing about them. I suppose that they must sell some since people go to those malls assuming they have "outlet" pricing and are usually there to SPEND $. I have never bought there but I will admit that on one particular visit to them, I finally got motivated to get into HL collecting.

A fourth retailer is in the mall nearest to me. They have a BEAUTIFUL "hanging" HL display in their window. It is quite large with glass shelves hanging from a lit ceiling. Unfortunately, it might as well be completely inaccessible. And when they offer you access, once you touch something, everything starts moving and swinging and you just want to get out of there in case something falls. They seem to know just a little bit more about HL than the prior 3 retailers and they seem to sell "just a few" on a regular basis. I believe that their cuustomer base is strictly "overflow" from the next retailer I will mention which is also in the same mall. Only when the other one is low on stock, do they come here. I have also never bought here.

Bear with me I will continue this on another post so AOL doesn't log me off.


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JB



[This message has been edited by JUL (edited 01-02-100).]

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20631 01/03/00 01:39 AM
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Continued from prior post.

The fifth retailer is my Favorite. I buy almost everything there despite one drawback which I'll get to in a moment. They are in the same mall as the last retailer (the one nearest me) and their staff seems to know quite a bit about HL and some even collect themselves. They have about 40 pieces on display and let you handle them to your hearts content. Despite the clutter, I rarely find things broken, and when I do, they remove if from display. They will order pieces for me and let me do layaways and are pretty flexible, and will keep me posted on HL things coming up, or if they are going to market to place an order, etc, etc. They seem to have a steady flow of HL customers ranging from Pretty impoverished looking to pretty affluent looking folks. The whole gammut of people and everyone is welcome. No one gets a hard time or anything. Even "rough" looking people who are clearly not in there to shop. Their downside is that they have the nasty habit of trashing the custom foam packing on about half of the HL pieces that I buy there in order to save space. They keep the box & fold it with its papers but usually only have the foam if they happen to have another duplicate piece in the stockroom. ie; most display HL's don't have the original packing foam at this store. You just get foam peanuts. Nevertheless, they seem to do brisk business and I like going there. I buy almost all my HL's there.

The sixth retailer is a branch of the store mentioned above but at a different mall. It's smaller yet they ALWAYS have all the packing materials (AMAZING)! Their staff also knows quite a bit about HL's and some of them also collect. Also very friendly and let me or anyone else browse to their hearts content. They too will do special orders or search their main warehouse for you if you want something. I also buy there once in a while & they know I frequent both stores.

For the life of me I don't know how the first 2 STAY in the HL business. The lack of inactivity there CAN'T be helping promote HL's. I expect they will discontinue soon or eventually. The other 4 are obviously moving product (but for different reasons) I expect that there is a 50/50 chance that the 3rd & 4th may discontinue. # 5 & 6 seem to be expanding and are getting ready for the new HL introductions.

One last comment in the folowing post.

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JB



[This message has been edited by JUL (edited 01-02-100).]

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20632 01/03/00 02:04 AM
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One final thought at this time,

I think there is another reason that some dealers are dropping HL's. They are pretty expensive. Eventhough on some of the other threads, people have been addressing the more affordable upcmming LLOM line coming soon from HL, they already have another competitor in that size & price range that I haven't found anyone mention in these forums.

Specifically, about a year & a half ago, LEFTON came out with a line of 5" miniature lighthouses. They now have 60 in the entire line and they cost $9.95 in most places and at least three quarters of them are quite good. Almost all of them have detailed brick and window work and the new LLOM will be pushing it to match their workmanship and ask a higher price. You can hardly tell the difference between the $9.95 Lefton mini New London Ledge and the HL $50 New London Ledge GLOW edition. They are not far from the same size. I can hardly wait to compare the soon to be released LLOM New London Ledge edition from HL. The GLOW St. Augustine from HL & the mini Lefton version are not worth the $40 difference. Some are actually almost 6" tall and have pretty nice attached buildings to boot. The Cape Canaveral Lefton has the round port windows in all the right places, a palm tree, & a detailed oil house without the roof. Just like the HL & in the real life photos. I currently have over 20 of these mini lights which I buy when I can't afford the HL version.

I bring this up because about half of the stores I mentioned carry both lines. I typically see someone pick up the $10 mini Lefton, then the $65+ HL and put it down to grab the $10 mini Lefton and go to the register. People won't blink at spending the ten bucks. (as evidenced by the large # I have). When it come to the HL price, it's in a differnt ballpark for both the customer, and for the retailer who has to carry the inventory. I personally believe that the LLOM REALLY came out to address this part of the marketplace competition.

What do you all think?? ? Have any of you seen these other pieces encroaching on HL's?

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JB



[This message has been edited by JUL (edited 01-02-100).]

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20633 01/03/00 02:15 AM
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With PHAROS, LE's, GLOWS, LLOM, DGB, it would appear that HL is perhaps over extended in offerings. Although the six HL dealers in my area do not appear to be overstocked with GLOWS some of them have remained on the shelf for some time as well as some of the LE's of a high edition number. Lower LE edition numbers is a move in the correct direction . I also think that HL should drop the GLOW line. The charity connected to GLOW sales is important but could be incorporated into sales of other products in the line perhaps on a piece by piece basis. AB is another line that brings question but now that HL will only produce LE,s and fewer offerings each year at lower prices this should work.The other lines DGB etc. are what I term as accessories and work as even Keepers & Friends would be a nice addition to any LLOM.I feel that LLOM will attract the random or gift buyer and perhaps sell new buyers on LE purchases etc. better than higher LE edition numbers or GLOW,s ever have or will. I also feel that PHAROS is an excellent expansion because it is an international market target. With the high quality of HL PHAROS done correct will work. I do not think that the GLOW line fits the total product line as it has developed to the present. All this said not knowing the HL total sales breakdown by line dropping GLOWs it would seem could only help the dealer with selling space,remove some of the confusion with the line for the newcomer,leave room to improve the current lines and build new lines or series either regular or timed as announced.

Delmarva Lightkeeper


Lonnie
Re: Losing HL Retailers #20634 01/03/00 02:30 AM
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Lonnie,

I agree with your rationale about the GLOW's, but amazingly enough, in my area, they sell out of the GLOW's right away. I don't know if it's the price or what but when they get them in, they sell right away. I've always had to special order mine if you can believe that! Here, the LE's seem to sit around. I wonder if it has to do with our geographic location in the midwest?

Also, I think you are right about the PHAROS editions. I think they will be a big hit but I think they will be a little bit bigger if they "expand" where their LH's are selected from. As I understand it, ALL in the initial group are from Ireland and the British Isles. Heck, the current HL's LE's have more international variety than that! I hope this is something they work on soon, or PHAROS might quickly restrict their huge potential market.

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JB

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20635 01/03/00 03:05 AM
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>>In hindsight, did the company address the ed. size and amt. of releases too late?<<

If you mean, did HL attempt to correct their oversizing too late, then yes I think they did. They misjudged the market and went to 9500 and 10,000 too quickly and they stayed at the higher edition size far too long. (And compounded problems by making GLOWS virtually indistiquishable from LEs.) I believe they'll find out that the 6500 and 8000 edition sizes are also too large and these too will exceed demand. Far better to err on the side of a too small edition size. But that assumes we're dealing with Collectibles.

The problem may compound itself. If more models must go through a smaller number of dealers it is unlikely this will do anything to increase sales. If sales fall off so will dealers - as Kaiz' may be witnessing. Fewer dealers may mean fewer new collectors.

8,000 people/families must each spend $82 (over $650,000 total) just to retire Old Point Comfort. Are there 8,000 people/families in the world who have the spare $82 and want that lighthouse model? How long will it take dealers to spend approximately $2.5 mllion dollars to buy up just the edition sizes for the models announced for 2000?

Rgds,
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/im

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20636 01/03/00 10:16 PM
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When I started collecting Harbour Lights a few years back, there were six Harbour Lights Dealers in the Tri City area (Bay City Saginaw, & Midland, Michigan). Today there are four.

One dealer has what I would consider a large display, two are moderate, and one small (around 20 pieces). Display cases are jammed with Harbour Lights sitting on top of one another. The GLOW's are mixed in with the LE's, which are mixed with the Society pieces that are marked "Not for Sale" which makes everything more confusing for the potential new collector.

What is wrong here? I'll ask the question that I have asked before: Who is responsible for the upkeep/merchandising of these displays. Do dealers get any training/advice on how to market HL's? Any education on the line in case customers ask questions? What function do the Reps. serve? It seems to me that these would be important to me as a business selling my product to a dealer.

All of the dealers that I have talked to recently have expressed their concern about too much product on their shelves taking up too much space. Too many new products. Some feel that the cheeper priced TLLOM is going to kill the sales of the LE's in their stores. They say why would someone spend $80-$125 for a Harbour Light if they can get a quality one for under $15? Not only a quailty one, but one of a popular lighthouse.

It is all a little scary to me. When dealers start to lose interest in a line of merchandise, what comes next? I know this post is a little doom and gloom, but these are some things to think about. I definately don't think Harbour Lights are on the way out by any means. I think Younger and Associates can ride this out. I just think more changes are needed before things get drastically better.

Food for thought,

-Todd

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20637 01/03/00 11:53 PM
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Two years ago, we had three dealers in our area, and two more in Crescent City 90 miles North of here. Now my dealer is the only one left on the coast between San Francisco and the Oregon border. I love HL's, but I think they need drastic steps and to start finding new dealers.

My dealer has a very small shop and there isn't a lot of excess shelf space. I hope HL finds the right balance soon. As far as GLOW's affecting the sale of LE's. You betcha they do. I own mostly LE's, but given Secondary Market prices, I now have three GLOW's. Hilton, St. Simon's and Coquille. Unless I win the lottery, I have no plans to buy LE's for several hundred or thousands of dollars when I can get a more detailed version for fifty bucks. Mom raised ugly kids, not fools.

Good luck Harbour Lights.

Rich

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Re: Losing HL Retailers #20638 01/04/00 12:26 AM
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Wow!...a lot was said in this thread in a short period of time.

I will be brief...

Although I'm a supporter and owner of Glows, eliminate future production and concentrate more on the LLOMs to cover that portion of sales.

Reduce the edition size of LEs to 6500 for a period of one year to see if they disappear from the shelves sooner. Future adjustments in edition sizes could be made accordingly.

I believe there is a difference between collecting HLs and owning HLs. Do you buy to collect or do you buy to own? Will you eventually sell your collection with the hopes of recouping your investment plus? Or, will you hold on to them forever and pass them down to your heirs?

Bob

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20639 01/04/00 01:35 AM
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Good question Bob. I collect just the lights that have some kind of meaning to me, such as the North Carolina lights since that's where I'm originally from, the Virginia lights where I lived for about 15 years, and Texas lights where I now live, plus a few others which I have visited or at least cruised by. When I first started collecting HL, I planned on buying a few extra pieces in the hopes of reselling later to help pay for the ones I kept, but I decided not to try and turn this into a profit thing and just collect them for my own enjoyment. Besides, once I get one, I hate to part with it.

Mike

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20640 01/04/00 02:29 AM
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Howdy Mike, I'm just down the road from you.

Bob, I think you posed some great questions. I guess I just like to own HL, but let me take your question further. If they lowered the edition size to 6,500 and then people with $$$$ are buying multiples, then how does a guy with limited resources like me get a piece that he wants. There is a guy on E-bay who was selling 6 (yes six) Panama Canals separately at the same time and won't sell them until they hit around $90, and then on one of the other threads, many , many people were saying they had purchased about 3 panama Canals as aspeculation apiece. With this going on, reducing the edition size will cut many peole out of the market.

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JB

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20641 01/04/00 02:31 AM
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Rusty Offline
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Great forum...

{....Do you buy to collect or do you buy to own?....}

When I started this past summer, I bought to own, then found a few rare ones, and went out on a spree and bought over 20 lighthouses in just a few months time. My buy to own, turned into buy to collect to sell, which then somewhere in there turned back into a buy to own senario... I am like Mike above, I love them to much to part from them. Had to go out and get a curio. If I had more money would buy more...

As far as store shelves getting crowded, there are about 5 stores near me, only one has decided to give the line up, but the others are crowded, and (gulp) open to hands to lift them up and crash into each other... Several have nicks and dings in them.. Many on the balls on top have been knocked off... Roof pitch as nicks in them. One store has them sitting on small decorative gravel!!!
No way I would display them this way..

I hope they get the problems worked out because I do love them. I have one glow, (Ponce de Leon), only because there was no way I could justify buying the LE Ponce. (Much less find it).. I also got the glow at half price which is hard to turn down...

I do think the lower editions in the LE's would help....

Rusty

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20642 01/04/00 02:59 PM
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I have two dealers fairly close to home here outside Boston, one I visit on the commute home, and a couple on Cape Cod I visit during the year. The Cape dealers have pretty good displays, and invest in local lighthouses, with their stock graed towards the east coast. I know I can always go there for current Cape/New England figures. In a separate case they also carry the <$20 "tourist" pieces.

Of the two locals - one has a case with about 20 HL pieces, and as fillers between the HLs are the Spoontiques. So in the same case as the HL New London mini is a poor "cousin". Without knowing what to look for, I (and others) have spent time trying to decide what is HL and what isn't. The people working there know very little about the figures - they are just another line. The owners seem to know little as well, and not very interested in Society members.

The other dealer took the time to get to know me, lets me poke and hold before buying. The first dealer has rarely changed their display, and never even showed East Quoddy. I'm waiting for them to fold so I can pick up their display pieces cheap. The second I have to check weekly, but he is putting me on his list to notify when new HLs come in.

Guess which dealer will be around for the long haul?

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20643 01/04/00 03:50 PM
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Bob, I have to agree with you about lowering the the number of pieces made of each lighthouse. One problem I see is that how many of these would make it on display? I saw very little of Hillsboro, Panama, or Sanibel make it on the shelves. To a new collector, these pieces and others will never be seen by them. All they will see are the pieces that have been sitting there for who knows how long! I have called stores in the past to reserve pieces only to go there weeks later and see that piece on the shelf! Someone either lost my note to hold or didn't know or didn't care! That's why I try to make the "rounds" on my local dealers at least once a month!

[This message has been edited by Randy Kremer (edited 01-04-100).]

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20644 01/04/00 06:27 PM
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The views and observations here are very interesting. I've noticed a few things myself while browsing in stores. In two different stores, I had to notify the managers that pieces were no longer current and now retired. It seems that with so many collectible lines, it's difficult for them to keep up to date. One owner told me that she gets four or five brochures or notifications a day. She said on an average, it's about 25 to 30 pages of reading a night.

Second, I see some of the plainer, non-WOW pieces sitting around month after month. These pieces should have had an edition of 4,000. How many Ida Lewis and Cape Mears are going to be sitting around for another few years? These pieces should have had lower retail prices. And, while we're at it, how about the retail prices? The wholesale is approximately 1/2 of the retail price. Is it time for that ratio to come down to maybe 40%? Or maybe give a little flexibilty to the shop owners to have sales or lower-priced options.

I've got to tell you, I have six lighthouses by Young's, Inc. (now Coastal) in my office. I paid $7.00 each for them. Except for being smaller than HL, they are really nice-looking, good quality pieces, not exceptional but a real bargain.

Also, I would agree that GLOWs hurt the LE trade, but with the price of open editions going over $60, I basically have stopped buying those. A GLOW should be in the $30 - 40 range, tops.

Joanne

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20645 01/04/00 07:29 PM
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I have not been as active on these Forums as I would like to be, but I have been a Harbour Lights collector for nearly 4 years. I was also very active as a secondary dealer for most of that time, but I am much less active today. I am still on auto-ship for every new piece.

The bloom has been off the rose, so to speak, for well over a year. This can be seen by the continually dropping prices for retired pieces on the secondary market. Do not expect this trend to reverse. There will always be a supply of retired pieces available for sale due to attrition among collectors. And there will always be someone who wants one of these retired pieces. But I think we are close to a state of equilibrium, where the demand for retired pieces roughly equals the supply.

As stated in previous posts, there are several reasons for the present situation. First, most of the more popular pieces have been made into replicas by HL. While St. Marks and Old Mission Point and East Quoddy are all very well done, none of them is a St. Augustine, a Portland Head or a Cape Hatteras. The line needs “sizzle” along with the steak, but most of the “sizzle” has already been done. Second, the GLOW pieces are so well done that it is hard for many collectors to justify spending the extra money for a retired LE piece. Just compare LE vs. OE for Old Mackinac, Grosse Point and Key West and you’ll get the idea. And a strong secondary market is important to the strength of a collectible line. Third, Harbour Lights made a serious strategic blunder when they increased the edition sizes the way they did. Can they recover? Things will never be the way they were before the increase in edition sizes. For all but a few releases it will be difficult to sell out an edition size above 6500. Fort Jefferson will go, but what other 2000 releases will?

One factor that has not been discussed is the product life cycle. Most products go through four stages: introduction, growth, maturity, decline. I believe the cycle is faster for collectibles than for most other products. Harbour Lights is already in the maturity phase. Now, this phase could last for many, many years, and I hope it does. But what prompted this thread, the discontinuance of the HL line by retailers, is an indication that the line is no longer in the growth phase.

I don’t believe anyone has said this yet, but the market is SATURATED with Harbour Lights.

So my advice to Harbour Lights? Reduce the edition size to 6500 for most new releases, 7500 for a few special items. Go easy on the international series, keeping the edition sizes even smaller. Eliminate the GLOW line, which hopefully will breathe new life into the secondary market. Slow down the pace of new releases: either go back to two announcements per year or fewer pieces three times per year.

Thanks for the read, from a lover of the Harbour Lights line who just bought two new curio cabinets which hold about 80 pieces (what do I do with the other 80?).

Mike

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20646 01/05/00 10:33 PM
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Wow, what an interesting thread. I hope Younger and Assoc. reads every entry. There are some very good insights here. I think they have listened somewhat by lowering the edition sizes on the 2000 releases just announced but is it too little too late?

I have one dealer withing 150 miles of me. He has about 40 pieces on display but has very limited space. He has a few regulars from around the country that call him. He's on auto ship and I used to get #581 from him but now the number has dropped with each auto ship he gets, Aparently those who have lower numbers are dropping the line or at least reducing their auto ship amounts. I was hoping to complete my collection with the 581 number but can not locate the dealer that carries it now. Nor do I want to buy from someone else, I like my dealer and prefer to be able to handle and inspect closely before I buy a piece.

I think 6500 should be the limit on all pieces with the exception of a few 4000 releases like the Panama. I like the Glows because I can fill in some of those pieces that I just cant find or afford. Like St. Augistine, St. Simons, Ponce and Key west.

Anyway, Bill and company, there is a lot of food for thought in this thread. These are you loyal colledtors, I hope you are listening!
Dale

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20647 01/06/00 05:48 PM
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I believe this was brought up quite a few months ago and created quite a debate, but, is it time for HL to go on QVC? What a wide range audience they can get then. I've got to tell you, I often watch QVC or HSN for 10 minutes here or there as a time filler. I have viewed many collectible lines on these channels. They have Hummel, Precious Moments, Thomas Kinkade, and Lladro shows. I have always been interested in Lighthouses but never knew their was a HL line until I found it by accident on Ebay. You'd be surprised how many people at work ask me about my HL screensaver and never even knew the line existed, yet are interested in lighthouses.

What do you think?

Joanne

Re: Losing HL Retailers #20648 01/06/00 09:53 PM
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I hate to admit it, but I agree with Mike Richards that the collection has peaked. Last year, when I made the decision to sell part of my growing collection and establish guardbands for what I was willing to buy (since I couldn't possibly own them all) I managed to sell several pieces at a tidy profit. This year I sold the remainder of the ones I wanted to sell at or below retail. I now have a core collection that represents my particular favorites. Last year a secondary broker offered me $550 for a LE Portland Head and I turned it down. Now they are selling the same lighthouse for under $500. I tried to sell my Coquille River (original paperwork but not the original box) and can't find a secondary dealer interested in buying it. Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.


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