I think it is only fair to all you Wackos who have been so supportive of this pin project, which has been implemented as our way to donate to lighthouse preservation, to know why this project has been so long in coming to completion. It has been through no fault of myself or Lamar, as we have already spent hundreds of hours working on it.

The project took much longer on our end than we ever anticipated because we had to get written legal permission from Paul Brady to use his photo of Morris Island; Kim Andrew's permission to use the existing HL artwork/photo of the HL sculpture; and even permission from Morris Island. Copyrights and ownership dictated, for our own legal protection, that this all had to be written out and signed by the owners above and this took time. Yes, amazingly in today's world, one cannot give money away in some cases without getting permission to do so. Because Morris Island Light is owned by a private preservation group and about to be handed over to the state, there were many obstacles that had to
be cleared. We could not use an image of their private property, which is the lighthouse, for our usage and especially to make money from it, unless we got their permission --- even though the profits from the pin are being turned over to them. They had to put our entire pin project proposal and design through their committees and their own lawyer, and this was not a fast procedure on their part---- we waited, and waited . . . and waited, ‘til they finally sent us the necessary signed agreement. This culminated in December.

We thought we were home free, and so Lamar sent the design to the pin rep who in turn sent it over to China to have the prototype made for our approval along with their pricing estimate. As I was by then in FL for the holiday season, Lamar was doing the paperwork and shipping of the design. I called him a few days after Christmas, in great anticipation, to hear how the project in China was going. I was met with a voice of gloom. He had found it necessary to call our pin rep and tell him (message was left on recorder as he was also gone for the holidays) to stop everything, hoping the prototype was not being produced.

Why? This is the section that needs your careful reading and consideration; and when you are done, we need to hear from all you wackos and about-to-be-wackos, by your posting on the forum and by e-mail, before we will be able to continue with this project.

On Christmas Day Lamar received a letter from John Chidester which stated that a Saint had objections to the pin project. St. John decided to send these comments on to all the other Saints for their views. John was acting as an intermediary; and at the Saints' requests, kept all names anonymous. We have no idea which Saint is making which specific objections. But John relayed back to us that all Saints concurred "that limiting access to the pin only served to create an unfair division among Forum users. A division which might be keeping lurkers from registering and participating in the forums."

Now the objections themselves were enough to get us upset, as there is no valid basis for them. But the thing that upset us both the most, and has personally made me furious, is that this happened at the twelfth hour. The design was already sitting over in CHINA waiting to go into production. We had posted our progress enough times that anyone, including the Saints, who read the Forum would know how things were going and especially that the design was pretty much finished. This project started way back in mid-September, 4 months ago. Everyone who posts knew about it. Until this December mess, we had never received any negative comments via forum or e-mail. Everyone of you were most enthusiastic and willing to support this project. If there were any comments or objections, by the Saints or anyone else, why weren't they made at that time? Why wait until the project is practically finished? This is an unconscionable action by anyone to do this to us, after the hundreds of hours that Lamar and I, and Darlene, John, Rod Watson, and Paul Brady have put in on this project. The thing I don't understand is that 4 of
the Saints who are now objecting had shown interest and support by asking to order pins.

NOTE: for the benefit of those new to the General Forums, this project started in mid-Sept. and you can read about it by going back to older threads labeled and look for postings by Ladylightkeeper: "No automatic buzzer for wackodom?", “Wacko pin update", “Calling All Wackos" plus more recent postings. What started out as a recognition pin for those who had posted 50 or more times and were called Wackos, as a fun thing; soon turned into both a fun and serious project, as the profits from the price of the pin were going to be donated to a lighthouse undergoing restoration, which would be determined by a wacko vote. Any newbie who graduated to wacko status by posting 50 times is
eligible to buy the pin; and some extras will be ordered for those still trying to attain wacko status.

Viewpoint of Ladylightkeeper and Lamar: We both agree that this project is very important and should be finished. We are willing to spend the time to see it to the end. But we need to know if you wackos (which includes cruise directors and Saints) and newbies who are close to graduating to wackodom will still support this project by ordering the pins that you so indicated last fall, which was the reason we plunged into
this whole project. We have all talked about the importance of saving the lighthouses but as far as I know, other than your private donations, this is the first organized attempt to help on our part as wackos. It may not be a huge amount of money made, but every little bit adds up and could help fund some repair or equipment otherwise not affordable to a preservation group. But what happens here with this 2000 wacko pin project, will have a heavy influence on whether there will be a 2001 pin and so on, as you have shown interest in doing. For who on these forums in the future is going to spend the hundreds of hours we have, to try and raise money for lighthouses and also continue the wacko pin tradition, if something similarly negative affects their work? It is our hope that the Saints, after receiving my personal letter (forwarded by John) rebutting their various objections, will AGAIN join the rest of us in this worthwhile project. Objectively, there are only a handful of Saints and over l00 wackos and many newbies coming close; and if most of us still want this project, then it should, and will, proceed. But if we do not get your support for the WAY in which Lamar and I are handling this, then we will scrap the entire project--- and the only loser from this will be Morris Island and other future recipients. (You will read a Saint's comment that this pin should be open to any and all, and you will read our reasons why we won't do this. But you must know that in the very beginning we made a suggestion that a separate pin, using a different design, could be made for ANYONE who visited the forum to purchase--- sort of a web pin--- to increase moneys being given to Morris. But we would not handle it. We are ONLY doing a recognition pin for wackos whose profits will go to Morris Island. Anyone else who wants to take on this bigger project is welcome to do so, and that may satisfy some of the Saints).

My letter to all Saints, to be forwarded by John, was sent on January 18. I had hoped and expected to hear from some of them by now, as I offered to answer any other comments they might have and wanted to earn their support of this project. To this date I have not heard from any Saint.

Below I am listing the basic comments that the Saints have made. That will be followed by a condensed version of my rebuttal to their comments. Lamar and I both hope you will look these over carefully and understand our reasoning and decisions; and then let your views be known, hopefully in support of the project.

Here are the Saints' objections and comments which are listed at the beginning of each numbered section, within quotation marks. It is followed by my rebuttal, as written to them in my 4 page letter last week to which I have had no reply so far:

1. "The exclusivity of the wacko pin is not in the spirit of good clean fun and collecting." By its very nature, collecting of any kind, including collecting Harbor Lights, has exclusivity built right into it. We are not all equal in the amount of money we have to buy HL; we are not all equally lucky to find some of the popular pieces that disappear off the shelves; and we definitely are not all equal in being able to find and afford the Coquilles, Portland Head Lights; Hatteras etc. So being ELIGIBLE to purchase a pin by virtue of achieving wacko status via 50 posts is just one more kind of exclusivity. However, here ANYONE can achieve this eligibility without any limitations of money. All it takes is
some time, interest, and effort in posting.

2. "This whole attitude about being a Wacko is completely against the Harbour Lights attitude about collecting." HL loves this sense of competition; of who can get out there and find those HL sculptures. They love to see us post our ideas on the Forum. And they love to see us help lighthouses whenever possible, just as they do. You may not know it, but Kim Andrews blessed our project by giving her permission for us to use HL artwork and photos to create the design; and she has expressed interest in getting a pin for herself. HL knows that this wacko thing is completely in FUN and helps spur on discussions which in turn are most beneficial to keeping the interest alive in their products.

3. "Is this pin project to raise money for lighthouses? No way, or it would be available to all. The pins should be at least available to any members of these forums until the supply runs out." Of course this project is for raising money for lighthouses. Just because it is limited by a boundary of eligibility does not mean it is not a serious intent. Anyone out there who belongs to an organization or club knows that there are certain requirements for joining. Our requirement was that a person post 50 times to become a wacko. This was our fun fraternity of sorts, which anyone can eventually join; and this pin was ours to wear proudly to show our achievement and "brotherhood/sisterhood of serious lighthouse interests." Think of the Boys Scouts, the Masons etc. -- they all work hard to achieve a certain plateau based on specific efforts and then receive recognition through pins, badges etc. We are doing similarly, and there is no reason to look at this negatively or be ashamed of what we have achieved. I am PROUD to be a Wacko, worked hard to achieve it, and will wear my pin with PRIDE. All the better that in doing so, I have made a donation to help save a lighthouse. So yes, this IS a serious intent, and NOT having the pin available to all does not diminish its purpose.

Why aren't we making the pin available to all? First off because it IS a wacko thing -- we started this idea and we are doing the work on it, and the wackos supported this idea. Secondly, from a very practical standpoint: our committee is small and we are spread out over the U.S. We are donating our own personal time and putting in many long hours on this project. We feel we are capable of handling just so many pin orders, as there is much record keeping to do and it will take a lot of time to package up and ship these pins out to you. Then there is still a lot of paperwork to do with Morris Island in relation to meeting the IRS legal requirements that you receive a notice as to how much of your donation can be deducted on taxes. There are close to 600 registrants on the Forums. There is no way we could handle that big a project. We feel that those who are truly interested in lighthouses and dedicated to saving them out of these 600 registrants, are those of you who have consistently been posting. If someone else wants to go out and try to find and contact the rest of the 600 besides you, then you have our blessings to do your own pin project for them and anyone else, and we will even give you tips on how to do it --- but be willing to put in hundreds of hours of work!!!

We will be ordering pins only after you have sent us your order and money. That way we will know how many we need to order and will have the money to pay the manufacturing costs. Neither Lamar or I are willing to go out on a financial limb and order hundreds of pins with our own money, to find that maybe they won't all sell afterwards. We WILL order a limited number of extra pins for newbies who are close to graduation to Wackodom by early spring. When the supply is sold out, that is it ----- until the 2001 pin becomes available, IF you continue to support this project. You will be able to send us your order and money as soon as we get this delayed prototype to look at and see what our costs will be.

4. "Is it to promote the web site? No way, or it would be available to all. I am inclined to think it should not be endorsed as an official Forum thing and prefer it to be organized by individuals and offered to whomever wants to buy one." I don't know where this idea came from. It has never been advertised as a promotion for the website or even the forum. It IS being run by individuals. We are not being directed or limited by any Forum officialdom. As Lamar stated to them, "what does an official forum mean? We haven't paid dues, met any list of strict requirements. And HL disavows itself from the forum in any official capacity. "We are just us wackos, running this because we felt strongly that WE wanted to help lighthouses and were delighted that you were willing to band with us to do so. And NO, a wacko pin is NOT a "reward" from St. John. Anyone who doesn't wish to participate, does not have to do so. It is your choice to buy the pin and donate. To
answer another comment of a Saint: no, we do not want a cheaper tin badge. We want this wacko pin to have quality. So yes, it will cost more to make than the HL tin badges, but the profits will still be acceptable. We have stated that any wacko can send in as much EXTRA donation as they wish, and it will be sent on to Morris Island and reflected in their tax deductible notice to you.

5. "All of the Saints concurred that limiting access to the pin only serves to create an unfair division among Forum users. A division which might be keeping lurkers from registering and participating in the forums”: We heartily disagree with this outlook! Of course, there is a division. This forum has been around for awhile; and there have been the divisions of Saints, Cruise Directors, Wackos, and Newbies long before I proposed this pin idea. Do any of us feel upset because there are these divisions? I don't think so. All we have to do is post to become a Wacko. As for the upper echelon, the requirements remain in the fog. There are posters out there with a huge amount of posts--DO they become Saints someday? Will a female ever receive that heavenly designation? Is the division as it has stood an unfair one, before this pin ever began? Will I get mad because I will never climb that high? Certainly not; and it sure won't make me upset and I would never think of
blaming it on a worthwhile project like the wacko pin!! And NOT being able to buy a pin sure isn't the reason that lurkers aren't posting. Why not put out a survey with no registration requirements and ask these people WHY they aren't registering on the Forums, or if they are, why they aren't posting. That problem has been an ongoing one. Don't blame it on their inability to buy our pin.

6. "We need to encourage discussion, not racing to a specific number to become a wacko": It's sort of late to change the race now. We are in this "race" out of FUN. Don't go changing the ground rules which you set up long before the pin came along. We don't want lots of rules. Leave things alone. We are all having FUN , and we sure all need more of that in this world. I will concede the point that we need more DISCUSSION. This is usually presented in paragraph form; not in one word or a short sentence. Many posters chalked up those 50 posts quite easily with fast and short replies; while others did it while writing longer and maybe more meaningful postings and replies. I favor the latter as the true test of earning wackodom; but then remember --- no rules to spoil the FUN; only your conscience to know you have truly earned that "Point".

Well, there it all is for your consideration. I am sorry it had to be such a long posting, but I felt you should know the background before you make your decision. Lamar and I sure hope you will support this project after all the hand work we have invested in it, not to mention some expenditure of our own money. Please post your comments on the Forum; and be sure to indicate how many pins you will be eventually ordering (there is a limit of two per wacko), so that we will know if there will be enough to meet the minimum manufacturing requirement. We hope the Saints will also be supporting this project.

You may also e-mail us if you have additional comments. PLEASE NOTE: I have a different though similar e-mail address for the winter ‘til late April, while I am in the South. It is ladylightkeeper@dixie-net.com . Lamar can be contacted at lamar@gs.verio.net .

Please help us Keep that Flame Burning!

Well!! After reading that rather lengthy summation of the pin progress to date I must say I'm stunned.

I reallly had no clue that helping a lighthouse and receiving a token of gratitude for it would create this kind of a controversy.

I do understand being fair to all people and in no way do I wish to sound like I'm promoting the exclusivity of being a "Wacko".

But like the posting expresses some times you have to "work" in order to achieve something. As we all know posting is not really work at all. It's fun and we like it. So, a little recognition for it is neat as well. Help save a lighthouse, communicate with others regularly about lighthouses, big and small, and get a pin for $10.00 that shows you care about a historic beacon that needs OUR support. Sounds like a deal to me!

I support the Wacko pin project 100% and am looking forward to ordering my pins.

I believe I said to put me down for two. Two it is for me.

I think it's a good cause, a bit of fun, and I certainly do appreciate your efforts. Exclusivity? 50 postings at no monetary cost seems like cheap dues into our "exclusive" fraternity that otherwise knows no boundaries, no barriers to entry.

I agree that we could use more thoughtful discussion in the Forums rather than simply more postings per person, although I am the first to admit that many of my own postings are trivial. Triviality is a part of the fun. This is recreation folks, not a professional think tank.

With unwavering support,

------------------
-Art

It's your project.
You do what you feel is best for the Wacko pin.
I will support your project and buy two pins.


Daniel J. Kirsch

Let me start out by saying I hope your WACKO pin project becomes very successful. I don't post very often because of time constraints. I used to be a regular on the weekend AOL chats, but now working as much as I do,I'm in and out of the forum as time permits. I just feel that labeling someone or yourself by the number of posts on the forum does not mean that much to me. As I've stated before, you don't need a computer to be a Harbour Lights WACKO. It was Jim Johnson (the one without the "T") that e-mailed me congratulations on my new wacko status, I didn't even know I had 50 posts. Its taken me this long to achive WACKO status, and I've been with the forum since its start. I feel I've been a Harbour Lights WACKO since 1992 when I started collecting Harbour Lights. For some reason, I don't rightly remember, I think it might have been a joke, I made those small 3 x 5 acrylic signs, that read: WARNING-I'M A HARBOUR LIGHTS WACKO. I sent one to Paul Brady, and one to John Chidester.
I was just having fun, and John posted a photo of it and I started getting requests for them. As I stated in my post about the details of the sign, you don't have to be at WACKO status to get one, just wacko about collecting Harbour Lights, and thats all. As founder of the Harbour Lights Collectors Club-Great Lakes District, we had adopted a lighthouse to help with its preservation and restoration, I thought this would be a good fund raiser, so proceeds from the signs went to the Pottawatomie Lighthouse. Barbara I think what you're doing is great for the lighthouse and your club, its too bad that there are some people who take this status thing so seriously. You've got so much time involved in this project it would be ashame if it didn't go through. I'm not a Saint, nor did I have any input on your pin decision. Maybe you could reach a happy medium on the availability of the pin. What I would like to suggest is Harbour Lights create a hat pin or a lapel pin of their logo and use the proceeds of the pin to be put into a fund for lighthouse restoration. My final thought, if anyone finds themselves viewing or posting on the forum on a regular basis, you're a WACKO. Good Luck
Jim Johnston
HARBOUR LIGHTS COLLECTORS CLUB-GREAT LAKES DISTRICT

I'm still waiting on my Two Pins and I do not take kindly to overzelous defenders of "fairness," who ruin a good time for all. I hope their action does not cause the very rift in the forums that they say they want to avoid!



[This message has been edited by Weasel58 (edited 01-28-2000).]

If a Saint has enough hair to disagree then the saint should have enough hair to sign their name. The complaint is invalid without a signature. Since when does it take one person to stop everything when they are not directly involved in the matter, just because they don't think its fair.
Well let it be known that the world is not fair. I say onward and forward. If the decenting saint doesn't like the program they don't have to buy a pin. No one is making anyone do anything. The committee has done a lot of work, the ground work has been laid, so this cruise director votes to go on with the project. I'll take two pins.

Jake Toering

I agree with Art.

It's good to have a goal. It doesn't take long or much effort to become a "Wacko". I have found that you can't plese all the people all the time. Please the majority. Go for it! I want my (1) pin!

If we're going to make things fair lets:
1. Eliminate limited editions.
2. Force everyone with more than one of
the same piece to offer it for sale
at retail price.
3. Get rid of Saints, Cruise Directors,
Wackos, and Newbies, and label
everyone as "Collectors."

As stated above, life's not fair.
I'll take two pins.

p.s. An opinion is nothing if its anonymous.

As Daniel has stated above, this project originated through the effort of Barbara and Lamar, so it is their project to make decisions as THEY deem necessary, not Harbour Lights’, Saints’, or other Wackos’. I think it was fairly clear from the beginning (at least in my mind) that this was not an official Harbour Lights or Forum project. Feedback from others that were popular or helpful to the project seemed to be listened to well, and incorporated into the project as best as they could. Many people had comments to toss in, and most were valid.

I have been in the position of being able to see all of the comments that have been made so far (on or off the Forums), and also tinkered with the button design itself. It appeared to me that all the numerous opinions which were made along the way were just that, individual’s opinions who thought they had an idea that may help a little. Whether it was on the colors of the button, what to write on the button, or the actual voting of which light to use for the button, everyone had a comment. Nothing wrong with that. By being a so-called Saint or Wacko does not mean that our opinions were better than any others, or should take any precedent over others. They were just personal opinions that they thought were maybe helpful or worthwhile.

The "exclusivity" comment that started this discussion did come through very late in the game, but I personally never read into the comment anything that would necessarily stop or interrupt the project in any way. It was just yet another person’s opinion that at least had a valid thought attached. I had never thought of the "exclusivity" aspect before until I read the comment, so it at least made me think a little. If many others also had that same opinion, then I at least personally would have had no argument with opening the pins up to all Forum users who was willing to pay for one, instead of just Wackos. I don’t believe that any of us (saints) thought that by ordering more pins than originally anticipated would stop or screw up the production in any way at this point, since the actual orders would not be placed until everyone sends in their money anyways. Everyone on the Forums are really Wackos, so the design would not need to be changed, it would just become available to more people than originally counted, possibly a little cheaper per pin, and therefore more profit could be sent to Morris Island. Sounded fairly harmless to me. Why would I not agree, if it created more buttons and therefore more money to the light itself? I thought that was the intent. There was nothing wrong with that idea, but it just came in too late for everyone to consider. I thought that by tossing in my response (as requested), and John passing it on to Lamar and Barbara was just a way to see what they thought of the idea, and if it should be brought to the Forums for everyone to consider. If they disagreed, than the comment would go no further. Since it was late in the game, I think we owed it to them to at least get their opinions to agree or disagree before suddenly thrusting it on the Forums for everyone to vote on. I think that would have been more rude to them then the approach taken. I had no idea that it was being interpretted the way it was, until John passed on Barbara's comments. I think it was all just a misunderstanding. By the time I had a chance to catch up on all the back logged e-mails I had from a week long crashed computer, it had already evolved into this scenario.

I think a response could have been made at that time that "...you just don’t understand, it is way too late in the game for any possible adjustments now, and the opinion should have been made much earlier on, Sorry". Case closed. I don’t think it needed to go beyond that, and don’t think it was necessary to stop production because of it. The so called "Saints" opinions are not more important than anyone else’s, and you should of just stated such. Once again, I think it WAS a valid point, but it should have been made much earlier on.

I’m sorry to here that you decided to put the project on hold because of that. The decision is yours and Lamar’s alone, don’t hold up the production because of some late opinions. Keep it going, it’s been a lot of work on your part, and there is no reason why you shouldn’t continue. I am just as interested in a pin as I was when we posted our order.

As Weasel touched on above, It’s a shame that the intent of the "exclusivity" comment (an attempt to help sell more buttons and make Newbies not feel left-out) has somehow evolved into this thread that has actually splintered the unity of the Forums, and forced the distinctions between having certain titles over others even more than before. Exact opposite of it's intention. I just don't understand why it has evolved into this, and where all the hatred is coming from. It is a shame. Might as well set up the gallows now, there are 5 of us to be hung tonight.
[This message has been edited by Rod Watson (edited 01-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rod Watson (edited 01-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rod Watson (edited 01-30-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rod Watson (edited 01-30-2000).]

I'm a little late getting in on this thread, too. Due to my recent workload I don't read the Forums quite as often as I would like, and I haven't made a chat in months for the same reason.

As Barbara so succintly stated we plan to carry on as planned if the Wacko support is still there. I fully agree with her responses to this project's criticisms.

The fact that whomever initiated this dialogue wished to remain anonymous leads me to believe that they are ashamed or have something or some reason to hide. Who knows?

Anyway, thank you all who have posted before me for your continued support. I of course hope that the project continues. It's fun and will help Morris Island Light. I personally have spoken to several members of the Save The Light organization and they each seemed pretty excited about it, as well as grateful for the financial support.

While composing the original reply above, Rod was posting his. I wish to make it clear that I alone made the decision to put a hold on production. Barbara was out of touch for a period so I couldn't immediately confer with her. In retrospect, I considered the negative opinions of the commenting Saints as a signal that perhaps this project was in fact way off base. So, while I was considering the situation and waiting to re-establish contact with her to get her reaction I put the whole thing on hold.

In my opinion and in my experience, the Saints, led by John, have expended an unmeasurable amount of time, effort and expertise to get these web sites (HL.COM and LHK.COM) and these Forums where they are today and to maintain and upgrade them. Their contributions have earned my gratitude and I truly respect each's opinions. (It's also my opinion that Sainthood has nothing whatsoever to do with gender.)

Anyway, when so many Saints expressed such strong reservations about the project, I halted it.

[This message has been edited by LamarB (edited 01-28-2000).]

Wow, I never thought I'd see such animosity here in these forums. When I first signed on I was eager to achieve "wacko" status and be able to purchase a pin. I saw it as a goal and hoped I'd make it in time to proudly display my badge. I still feel the same. I love my TWO HLs as much as some love their many cabinets full. I don't know as much about lighthouses as most of you do, but I know a great bunch of people when I see them. Some of us may never have the collections others have, but achieving "wacko" status is a little thrill that may make us feel that we are really part of a group we can be proud of.

Don't argue, friends, this was supposed to be fun. I for one hope to become a wacko some day soon and be fortunate enough to buy a pin. If not this year, then 2001.

Peace, ~Dale from NY

By the way,

Thanks very much to Barbara and Lamar for their efforts. You have the support of this "newbie" (for what it's worth).

~Dale

I wasn't going to comment, because I didn't think it would accomplish a thing. When Rod stated his thoughts so well and they so closely matched my own feelings, about the pin scenario, that I decided to go ahead and respond to his post. Rod stated it much better than I ever could.

I wasn't aware that Lamar had stopped working on it, I thought it was still in the works.

I would like to express one final thought of my own. I think this has been blown way out of proportion and I am more than a little embarrassed by some of the comments made by people in this thread. Some feelings both have been and are going to be hurt in all of this and that is sad, very sad.

Paul L Brady

We all see little tiffs like this in the best of families and after all, we are one big "Harbour Light" family.
Harbour Lights as a company has and does reward collectors in numerous exclusive ways:
1) Collectors Society pcs., which can only be purchased by members.
2) Special pins for people who only attended a special event (Pt. Fermin)
3) Even a special mini Pt. Fermin for "Charter members"
I feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with individual collectors being rewarded in a small way for being there from the beginning or for putting in the effort to travel to an event or for simply posting 50 responses on a forum for and about HL friends and family.
Thanks to everyone who has committed so many hours to this pin project. I, for one appreciate the efforts and I also want to make sure you sign us up for TWO WACKO PINS.

Kaiz

[This message has been edited by Kaiz (edited 01-28-2000).]

In my heart... I'm a WACKO ! Just ask my wife. I check E-Bay every day(can't buy anything, I'm on e-bay probation but I can look), and I check the Forum every day to see new topics and replys.
I would love to skip March and April to get to Cape Hatteras alot sooner so I can meet Bill and other HL Newbies and WACKO's! That's how WACKO I am

And Yes, I've thought about flooding the forums with quick simple (thoughtless) responses to get to WACKO status.. but I won't so when I do get the status, I'll smile real big, pound my chest and pin my new WACKO pin on it and say... I'M A WACKO and proud of it!!
Reserve me 2 please.. I'll be there soon!

Barbara I had a chance to meet you at the Reunion and we've exchanged emails a few times. Even from this little contact, I knew you were the kind of a person who takes charge and puts their all into whatever project appeals to them. You've done that here or it wouldn't have gotten done. Lamar has also done great with sheparding the pin idea through the hurdles.

But Barbara you have been too quick to take offense. Here you're incensed that someone might have criticized your WACKO pin idea at the eleventh hour.

From your email of 1/18/2000 to me:

The fact that the person who brought their concern to me is anonymous seems to be a concern of yours (although you deny it).

That person was a 'Saint'.

Saints are 'anointed' by me not based on their number of posts, or friendship (or gender, race, creed, color or country of origin), but on their contribution to the content of the Forums. Some don't like having been elevated to sainthood - some wear the badge with honor, some don't care. It's my way of recognizing people without whom the Forums would not be what they have become today.

Wacko status is based on counts; and as Jim Johnston has noted, there are lots of Harbour Lights Wackos who have no posts -- heck, some, no doubt, who aren't even on line.

I value the opinions of the Saints because of their contributions. So when one of them brought a concern to me, rather than respond on my own, I asked the others to comment on it. While the degree of agreement varied, there was consensus that it was a valid concern. So I sent the email to you and to Lamar.

I knew you were already underway, but I wanted to share the concern and see if there was a way to allow more people to participate, receive pins and help Morris Island lighthouse. At that time, it was my understanding that this was a 1999 Wacko pin. I think I suggested it should be a 2000 pin so that more people could qualify. You objected as I remember, but it appears in seeking support here that it has opened up. If that's true, then that basically resolves the issue raised in the first place.

As Lamar has noted above, it was his sole decision to put the project on hold - partly it appears because he could not reach you. Frankly, I was surprised he did that, but knowing that the pin project was your 'baby' I would probably have done the same in his shoes.

To continue your email to me of 1/18/2000:

You and Lamar have stated you are proceeding… and I think we all agree.

'Wacko' is a term I adapted from the users of the Forums. You don't need my permission -- just as Jim Johnston didn't when he made up his orange 'Warning Signs'.

It's been your choice to put this on the forums. The fact that there is a perceived divisiveness based on arbitrary titles and number of posts clearly shows in the some of the messages of support you've gotten.

You could simply have proceeded with the project. You didn't need a 'show of support' to proceed. You had your mandate from the early 'orders'. Your purpose in starting this thread appears to me to have been self-serving. If you need the 'attaboy', here's mine: "Thanks for the idea and thanks for taking it on, Barbara".

Lighten up. Be happy. No one is out to get you. We're all collectors; we're all Harbour Lights Wackos, regardless of our post count or Sainthood.


[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 01-28-2000).]

I'm proud of Wacko status
And want to wear my pin.
I've enjoyed time on the Forum
And don't understand the din!
The pin's a badge of honor
The pin's a badge of love
For every single lighthouse that shines its light above.
So let's forget the squabble
And get on with the plan.
Let's wear our pins despite the din
'Cause we're all HL fans!

I too believe that this has been blown way out of proportion. Opinions, even Saints opinions, are just that. One persons opinion. I do believe that the "Wacko" pin idea was well discussed in these forums and I don't recall reading a dissenting vote. This is a private endeavor that should go forward and this private citizen reafirms his order for his "Wacko Pin".

Hello fellow collectors and writers to this forum.
What a surprise it was to me to see this in fighting,for a better lack of words,to be going on in this place.I thought from the outset it was a wonderful idea and after reading all the posts and reasons from the saints that had concerns,I STILL believe it is a wonderful idea!We're contributing to a light house....we're having something available to people in here that love this forum and post alot and contribute in there own way...we're saying to the other people,(newbies)that if you keep contributing and keep the forums going with great idea's and subjects,we have something extra for you if you want it...where's the problem??Like was said above..we are all collectors..newbies..wacko's,,saints..cruise directors..no one is better then the next..and if to make a saint we should have great idea's and contributions,well,to have a chance to obtain a pin,contribute..contribute..contribute..and not only will you have a chance for a pin,John may observe you as someone with a chance at saint.Its good for everyone here!
I'll take 2 Barbera..and keep up the great work!
Bob

First, a heartfelt "thank you" to Barbara and Lamar for all their effort and time in this pin project. There probably aren't many of us who would have been willing to take on this project. We owe them a debt of gratitude.

Secondly, we need to remember all the time and effort those who have organized and run the different Forum topics have invested. We owe them a debt of gratitude as well.

All that being said, it seems to me that most things that matter in life take work and effort, and that perhaps the effort makes the achieving that much more meaningful. I, for one, was spurred on to achieve Wacko status not only to be able to get the pin, but to be more of a contributing member of the Forums. I did not feel slighted when I was a Newbie, nor did I feel like I was not as much of a HL lover because I didn't have 50 posts. Those who were already Wackos, or Cruise Directors, or Saints had those designations because they had done something to earn them. That's the way it should be.

Effort brings reward, we reap what we sow...If I want a Wacko pin, well then, by golly, I better work to get one.

Keep the project going - I want two pins!

Barb

So many good comments have been offered. I'm going to try and add my brief 2 cents worth.

As John did, I thought the pin was for those at the Wacko level by 12/31/99. I'm glad to see it move to 2000, giving even more the chance. Last fall how many were busily posting to make their 50? It was truly a mission for many! Hopefully, more people became more active participants of these wonderful forums.

I have learned so much from the knowledge others have been willing to share. Sometimes it is learning about the little known HL facts, sometimes it is using someone else's trip posting as a model for our own. Or, how abut when someone comments back on your post that yes, they can remember when they could relate to what you were saying or that your post brought back good memories?

Personally, I'm anxious to see the design. I know it will be great and can't wait to get my 2. I think the mandate is clear that there still is widespread support for your project. Thanks Barbara and Lamar and your committee for all you have done. Keep your flame burning!

Dave

[This message has been edited by Dave H (edited 01-28-2000).]

Keep it going .
Order three for me .

Lonnie

Barbara and Lamar

I'm looking forward to my pin. in fact I want one for my wife too.
I'll take 2

Peace!(:

Dale

[This message has been edited by DALE LAWRENCE (edited 01-28-2000).]

I originally thought that the wacko pin project was an entertaining and clever way to create some enthusiasm and garner support for a worthwhile lighthouse restoration project. I'd like to add some enlightening comments to what I've read so far, but I really can't figure out what it would accomplish. Suffice it to say that I still believe the idea to be entertaining and clever. Kay and I will take two.

I would like to start by saying thank you to Barbara and Lamar for taking the bull by the horns and working hard on something that they believe in. You both deserve a pat on the back for your dedicated effort.

Secondly, let me say that I think that it is wrong and unfair to take this out on the Saints of this forum. While some concerns have been brought up late in the game regarding the "Wacko" pins, I think it is safe to say that these concerns were brought up in the best interest of everyone here in the forums. This is my opinion, but I don't think any of them were trying to undermine anyone or stop the project. I think the purpose was to be sure no one felt left out or was slighted. It doesn't hurt to step back and look at the big picture sometimes. There are always two sides to every story, and in this case, valid points to be considered.

Lastly, don't make more of this than it really is. It is really worth hurting feelings or getting angry over? Not in my opinion. Do you really feel that there is an inequality between Saints, Cruise Directors, Wackos, and Newbies? Not in my opinion.

If this pin project resumes as "Wacko's only", that's great. That is the way it started, and going back through all the old threads on this topic, there were no objections that I could find. If it is opened up to everyone, that's great too. Morris Island will be that much more ahead and we can all say we had the chance to help out a lighthouse in need.

FWIW,

-Todd

I don't know what more I could add to these comments. I still consider myself a "newbie wacko". I have only been on these forums since last May when I discovered Harbor Lights. I read the forums regularly and try to make worthwhile posts when I am able. By reading the thoughts and comments of others, I have learned much! Please accept my thanks for taking on this project and for taking on the headaches and heartaches associated with an effort like this as well! I plan to order 1 pin and will wear it with pride and gratitude!

chris grass

I've read the above comments and hate to see feelings hurt, but here's two cents worth of my perspective. I collect Harbour Lights Limited Editions. That makes me an "elitist." If I wanted what everyone else had, I'd collect GLOWs.

Mind you, I'm not knocking GLOWs. I have three of those until I can afford the LE version. What this leads to is that I can see no harm in offering the pin to WACKO's only. If someone wants one, all they need to do is join in and have fun.

I'll take two Barbara. And thanks for staying with it. (You didn't even have to come find me on my e-mail.)

Rich

------------------

I have to say I read this last night but decided not to respond until this morning in order to look at the situation without a rush of thoughts.

1. I agree with everything Barbara has stated. Plus, I have expressed the same question in private notes as to why there are no female saints or cruise directors.

2. I don't think the issue is so much that the Saint has concerns with a Wacko pin, but the delay he took in voicing them. A lot of work, time and good intentions went into this project and it deserves to be brought to fruition. I think it's too late for the "speak now or forever hold your peace". He should have spoken out months ago.

3. Twice when I was a newbie, my opinions were slammed by a saint. I was going to stop visiting the forum, but decided I was overreacting and had hurt feelings. This is to be an exchange of ideas and thoughts on HL's, lighthouses and whatever is in good taste. We need to be aware of the feelings of others when we disagree. There is no need to make others feel badly when you disagree with their opinion. I have learned to be more thick-skinned and tolerant of those who like to express their ideas with a steamroller.

4. I will take my pin as originally stated back in the Fall of 99.

Joanne



[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 01-29-2000).]

So much has already been stated that it is hard to add anything new. I first started reading about HL in 1996 on the old aol collector board and John's site before it was sponsored by HL. I felt like this was a great source for information since I was a little "green" about HL. I was excited when HL came on board with the new forum setup. I still was an avid "lurker" because I wasn't sure I had much to contribute to the forums. When the idea was thrown out to earn the "wacko" pin, this gave me an incentive to post more to get to that level. This was a great way to get more people posting on the forums and additionally help a worthwhile cause. The best part of all was that it didn't cost me anything to get my 50 posts!

As was stated earlier, there is always going to be differences amongst collectors. It is not always going to please everyone.

So...to Barbara and Lamar, charge forward full speed ahead and let's get the pin in production! I will still take my 2 pins.

Finally, I want to thank everyone who keeps the forums up and running. Without them, I wouldn't have gained the knowledge and understanding of being a more informed collector. I have benefited from Retired @ Retail, bought early when editions were expected to sell out fast, and most importantly have new internet friends with the same passion about lighthouses.

It seems to me the original concern about creating a "division" amongst us is legit. I am concerned about the way it was brought up. Doesn't that create the perception of "divisions"? Why could it not be on the forums for discussion? Isn't that part of the reasons for the forums?

------------------
Ken T

Barbara and Lamar,

We are looking forward to receiving the pin that we ordered when they are complete. Hang in there.

I still want my two pins!!! Thanks again to everyone involved with this project. I don't see a problem with the way any of this was handled from the beginning! Please don't let
this "disagreement" end it all!
YOU CAN'T PLEASE ALL THE PEOPLE ALL TIME

My order was for two...Still is.

Derith

Two, Two pins for me.

I just want to double my pleasure.

All this discussion and disagreement reminds me of a normal family - my mother did not speak with one of her sisters for years over a tiny family matter. They never made up and now they are both dead. I hope they made up in Heaven. Please do not let this disagreement go that far.

------------------
Jim

Dr. Who ?

I particularly related to what Rod and Paul and Randy said -- count me in for one!

Donna

Hang in there. We are behind you. You can put us down for 2 pins. Barbara and Lamar, you are doing a heck of a job.

------------------
Randall & Linda Ronne

I think Ken's response above is very much to the point. Barbara and Lamar, I hope you continue with the project. Your work is very much appreciated. Put me down for a pin.

Warren

Barbara and Lamar I know what you are going through on this project. I had the same problems with a Dept. 56 club that we belonged to as we could not come up with a agreement about a club pin. It became very frustrating at times but we kept at it and finally got the project done. We certainly hope that you will do the same on this as you can see by other posts that that HL collectors are behind you on this.
Put me down for 2 pins.
Ken brought up a good point that this could be discussed on the forum. I agree. So why not set up a special forum at a certain date and time so all interested partys can get involved to get this problem solved and have a better understanding on it.

Hal

[This message has been edited by Hal Dean (edited 01-29-2000).]

Thanks for all the hours and efforts. I still want my two !!

I personally do not think that the wacko concept and a yearly pin discourage people from posting, but rather encourage more people to post messages. As many of the above messages above have stated, it's easy and it's free.
Nowhere in these forums is it stated that we all have to agree with each others ideas or thoughts. We are all very different people with one common interest. The only thing asked of us is that we don't take personal shots at other members of our community.
As for the Saints, they are the folks that got us here. From the original group on AOL, to John's board before the official website, and on to HL.com, those known as Saints and a core group of a few others did the work to give us a place to play. From the great pictures that Paul takes, Tim's computer skills, Sean's years at R@R, Rods wisdom and the contributions of many others came these forums and John choose to call some of them Saints. As for Cruise Directors, John asked for volunteers and those who were interested signed up. We can all do what we want to contribute or not. But it's not fair to blame John or the Saints for putting forth their opinions. So, it doesn't matter if your a Saint, Cruise Director, wacko or newbie, sit back and enjoy where we are today.
Thanks to Barbara and Lamar for their contributions, I'll take my 2 pins and enjoy them as a part of my collection and be glad I made a small contribution to a lighthouse.
Jim
Johnson

I have always considered this project worthwhile from the very beginning and have supported it from the beginning. I can't wait to see the design and get my pins. I know that I truly appreciate the time and effort that you guys are putting into this project and I would hate to see it come to a halt. As for short posts, well, remember that I'm a gravedigger not a writer.


Digger

We are a "family". Like any family, there will be a squabble here and there. There is nothing really wrong here. THIS family, I feel is strong and will continue, but I would like to put two cents in.
John stated concern over the "names" or "status" of posters. There is no big deal here, especially among the "Directors", "Saints", and "Wackos".
The term "Newbie" may be a different story.

I propose two options that MAY help.
1. We do want to encourage folks to post no matter what their status. Elivate the term newbie to something any new poster would be proud of. "Mariner", "Seaman", "Yeoman", "First Mate". A title of respect, after all almost all of us have been there. Let me remind you because I am sure that many have forgotten; You CAN be a bit intimidating. I am amazed at the knowledge and expertise of some of you in LHs and PCs. THIS IS A COMPLIMENT! I also know that no one here would purposely hurt another's feelings.
2. How about allowing newbies to name themselves. Have a contest where only newbies can vote.
Just some thoughts - Thanks for the vine!

I kinda like the name-the-newbies contest idea, easy "a". However, "Seaman" is already taken. Some may say we already have one too many of those posting here.

------------------
-Art

As a newbie (second time registered) user to
these forums I fully support the efforts for the WACKO Pins. With all the time & efforts of those involved and being for such a good cause, I don't understand how anyone could question your good intentions and the status required for WACKO and Pins.
I can only hope that I will be able to someday achieve the Wacho status and get away from my current newbie status.

Now that it seems that the fog has cleared, we can turn off the fog signal. It looks like clear sailing from here. Bring on the "Wacko Pins".

"TheLightkeeper"

This reminds me of a wedding. If the bans were previously posted, last minute objections were disallowed.

I appreciate the time and effort expended to date on this project and sincerely hope that it can be completed.

I'd like 2 pins, please.

Two please!

I would like to keep my request for one pin. I think I am the king of not real meaningful posts, but I enjoy it here and consider the people here friends. Stuff like this discussion happens. It is OK to vent. I think that happens when you feel more comfortable in the environment you are in. I would like to see Barbara & Lamar keep the project going. Thanks for all your hard work, and thanks to the Saints for their extra work in helping with having these forums. Before I start singing “Everything is Beautiful in It’s Own Way” I will sign off. I still have not found a place to put that Navesink I just got.
Take care,

George

What is left to say except a big Thank You to Barbara and Lamar for all their hard work, and I'm still looking forward to my pin! Keep it up guys!

And here I thought that I was the king of not real meaningful posts.
See, here's another one,

[This message has been edited by easya (edited 01-31-2000).]

I have not learned yet exactly how to start a part 2 and close out the original thread when it reaches 50. I will ask Paul Brady to do that for me.

I don't know if there is more to say on the topic. Everyone appreciates the efforts that Lamar and Barbara spent on this project. The consensus is in favor of following through on the pin.

Joanne

Closing Part One the Wacko pin update thread, since it has reached over 50 posts, for the continuation of this thread click on Part Two and add your response.
Part Two