With all the news about immigrants, legal or illegal, being in the news, a Spanish version of our National Anthem has come out. Regardless of the differences in the wording due to translation how do you feel about it being changed? Should anyone wishing to become a U.S. citizen have to learn, at the minimum, a working knowledge of English?

No comment!

Gosh, my relatives and many others in the Milwaukee area spoke German for years and years until it became unfashionable due to WWII. My Grandfather was the minister of the local German Methodist church and preached in German in the United States for many many years!

Well I am an immigrant who had to go though the process, interview, fingerprints, background search and a test (oral and written). So if I had to do it so should all other immigrants. There should be no amnesty for anyone! The spoken language in America is English - No there should not be another version of the National Anthem - try going to another country and doing that - you'd be thrown out on your ear!
HCS

I feel that if you want to translate the National Anthem into Spanish, you're more than welcome to. French? Sure. German? Go ahead. Swahili? That's fine.

Just don't try to make it an "official" version. If you want to sing it in Norwegian at the start of the meeting of your...um...Norwegian Literature Group...then go ahead. If your Aboroginal Society wants to sing it in Kala Lagaw Ya , go ahead.

But officially, it's in English, and it always will be in English. You want to live in America? Learn English. It's, if you really look at it, the language of the world. Eveywhere from New York to New Dehli, it's a great tool to succeed anyway. But I don't think we have to print everything in Spanish for you. (Don't even get me started on Quebec, either. If you want all of Canada to put their signs in French, maybe you could put yours in English. I know. Novel idea.)

It seems to me to just be propaganda with this whole immigration debate. If you read the lyrics , it's actually a pretty funny translation. Kind of like one of those online ones.

I'm not getting too riled up about it, because it's obviously propaganda for the whole immigration rally thing on 1 May. But I think that if you want to live in America, you have to get at least enough knowledge of English to be able to easily function in everyday life with English-speaking Americans. You don't have to know it on the advanced vocabulary level or anything, but you should be able to sustain conversation in the language.

"Regardless of the differences in the wording due to translation how do you feel about it being changed?"

Who says it's changed?? Are they using it at sporting events? Just because someone makes another version, that doesn't make it changed. What if Weird Al did a version?? would the U.S. then be the laughing stock of the world?? (well... maybe)

Maybe it's time to revisit "God save the Queen" too...

Not a chance!!

HCS

It is not a literal translation, but I see nothing funny about it; it is rather poetic and speaks from the heart and their love of our flag. I am not speaking about the English translation of the Spanish version, but of the Spanish version itself. From all of the hoopla, I thought they had totally changed the meaning. I am not advocating that our National Anthem be translated into other languages, quite the contrary.

As for how easy it was for some people to get here legally, try being of a darker color, having a native language other than English, and coming from a third world country and see how easy it is. All you have to do is go back in history beginning with the quota system. At times like this, and with my big mouth, my inclination is to say if all of the people whose families came to the Americas from another country had never come, the land would have continued to be free, beautiful and pristine, and those of us who were here long before anyone else would have continued to live in peace and so much closer to nature.

As I say, I have a big mouth and I step on a lot of toes. So I will leave it at that and let others debate this topic.

Greg, good comments. I agree, just because a song is translated into another language does not mean it has been "changed." In fact, I don't think anyone even suggested that it would be anything more than a translation. Translations help people understand the meaning better. How is that not a good thing?

For a county composed of people from many different countries with many different languages, Americans can really be intolerant about language. It is funny how when Americans travel to Europe so many expect signs to be in English and people to speak English. But, in our own country, does it really hurt us to be a little helpful to the tourists in our country to help them get around? Does it really hurt people here to have other language options?

Well said, Suzanne. And, actually, many people throughout the world do speak English, but we make little effort here to educate our children in other languages. Whenever I travel, I am always amazed at how many languages children in other lands speak. I love it and wish I had a better command of more languages.

BTW, until I read Greg's post with the lyrics, all I had heard was in the news and there was a lot of hype about the fact that the lyrics had been changed.

Mark I find it ironic that you should say that because the author of this Spanish version is British. As you "suggested," why didn't he start there? Because he would have been tarred and feathered...as he still should be!! Even one of the very popular Spanish DJ's said on the air that you just don't mess around with someone's National Anthem. Its sacred and you just don't do that!

Grace,
Every country is allotted an equal amount of places per year. In the past there has even been a lottery for certain countries who had not filled their quota. (I know this for a fact as my niece did the lottery) Marrying an American (as I did) does not give you a free pass, still have to go through the process. In fact when I came it was harder than it is now. Jim had to apply at the American Consulate in NY for me to have a special fiance visa. I had to have a full medical back home and carry xrays with me to show on entering the country. We then had to be married within a certain amount of days and send in a certified copy of our marriage certificate to start the ball rolling. I got residency first and had to be married five years before I could even apply to become a citizen. The actual process to become a citizen is the same for all no matter which country you come from and if you have trouble with the English language, you can apply to take the test in your native tounge. So may be years ago it was not as equal, but it has been in more recent years.
HCS

So true, Grace, about children of other countries learning many languages. This is why in the schools I went to we were required to learn a foreign language. I have studied German and Spanish. Learning other languages can be a good thing.

There are many songs that have translations in many languages. Many of our Christmas songs or hymns were originally in other languages, such as German and I have song them both in English and German. Even translated, they are still the same song and the meaning and emotions of the song are the same.

Translating the Star Spangled Banner does not mean that the translation will replace the official English version as our National Anthem. I don't think there is any danger of that.

An American "borrowed" the music from "God Save the Queen" and changed the words to "America (My Country, Tis of Thee)". The story of that song is very interesting. In fact the British also "borrowed" the music and changed the words. Actually many countries have used that same melody for several national anthems.

As found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Country_\'Tis_of_Thee My Country, 'Tis of Thee," also known as "America," is an American patriotic song. The melody comes from the British national anthem, God Save the Queen and the German "Kaiserhymne". The same melody is the national anthem of Liechtenstein and has served as an anthem for Denmark, Germany, Russia, Sweden and Switzerland. The lyrics to "My Country, 'Tis of Thee" were written in 1831 by Reverend Samuel Francis Smith in Andover, Massachusetts. The song served as a de facto American national anthem for much of the 19th century.

Now, as to the Star-Spangled Banner ---
British music producer Adam Kidron says he just wanted to honor the millions of immigrants seeking a better life in the U.S. when he came up with the idea of a Spanish-language version of the national anthem. "The intention of recording 'Nuestro Himno' ('Our Anthem') has never been to discourage immigrants from learning English and embracing American culture," Kidron said. "We instead view 'Nuestro Himno' as a song that affords those immigrants that have not yet learned the English language, the opportunity to fully understand the character of 'The Star Spangled Banner,' the American flag and the ideals of freedom that they represent."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/3827553.html

My fear is that the hispanic community will eventually honor and respect only the spanish version. Could it be possible that in the near future, when the national anthem (english version) is played the hispanics will ignore it and view only the spanish version as "their" anthem?

I watched a woman get in a shouting fight with a hispanic woman at a local greenhouse (of all places) last weekend. The hispanic woman and another gent were speaking (loudly I will admit) spanish. The lady told them to please speak english and if they don't know it then please learn it. The woman looked at her and said, "I don't have to speak english in the U.S. but soon you will be the minority and have to learn spanish". Scary.

You are right, that is a scary thought. They tried to make Spanish the official second language in NY, but it got voted down.
HCS

Checking History can be helpful! Here are some interesting FACTS:

"Nuestro Himno" isn't the first Spanish-language version of the "The Star-Spangled Banner" to have been published. In 1919 the Star-Spangled Banner was translated into Spanish by the United States Bureau of Education. The U.S. State Department's website shows four Spanish-language versions of the national anthem, including "Himno nacional - La Bandera de Estrellas" which was copyrighted in 1919. http://usinfo.state.gov/esp/home/topics/us_society_values/national_symbols/anthem_spanish.html
It has also been translated into a number of other languages. In 1861, it was translated into German. It has been translated into Yiddish by Jewish immigrants and into French by Acadians of Louisiana. It has also been translated into Latin and Samoan.

It has even been translated into sign language . http://www.thisdayinhistory.com/starspangled_archive/song/video.html

The words were put to the tune of "To Anacreon in Heaven", a popular drinking song dating from the mid-1760s, written in London by John Stafford Smith. "The Star-Spangled Banner" was recognized for official use by the United States Navy (1889) and by the White House (1916). In 1916, Woodrow Wilson ordered that "The Star Spangled Banner" be played at military and other appropriate occasions. Two years later, in 1918, the song was first played at a baseball game; in the World Series, the band started an impromptu performance of "The Star-Spangled Banner" during the seventh-inning stretch. The players and spectators stood at attention, took off their hats, and sang, giving rise to a tradition that is repeated at almost every professional baseball game in United States today, though it is now performed prior to the first pitch.

By Congressional resolution signed by President Herbert Hoover, "The Star-Spangled Banner" was adopted as the national anthem of the United States on March 3, 1931. This song, like the British national anthem "God Save the Queen", is known as one of the few national anthems that does not mention the name of the home country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

Spanish: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cocoon/ihas/loc.natlib.ihas.100000007/full.html

German: http://ingeb.org/songs/thestars.html

Latin: http://ingeb.org/songs/thestars.html

Yiddish: http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol06/vol06.279

Samoan http://pidp.eastwestcenter.org/pireport/2006/January/01-26-18.htm

Song "To Anacreon in Heaven" http://ingeb.org/songs/toanacre.html

Hey, that Latin one's pretty cool! I'm going to print that out and bring it in tomorrow to Latin class!

I must say I am a bit intolerant about the number of products that come with instructions and promotional copy in English and FRENCH. It's not because I dislike the French, but rather that a neighboring country with 10% of its population speaking French is controlling what language appears on packaging in the USA.

If you sell products in Canada (about 10% of the US population) you are required to have the dual language on packaging and instructions.) And I think it's only 10% of the Canadians who speak French.

I understand that perhaps it makes life simpler for US companies to just have one form of packaging, but if we're going to have two languages on packaging, why not English and Spanish? Why not German, French, etc, etc.

Nothing against anyone, mind you. Just one of those pet peeves.

Its a WORLD-WIDE market out there. I work with people from China, India, France, Australia, England, and probably more countries than I am aware of. I hear many languages and accents on a daily basis. The U.S. is not isolated. Even Harbour Lights are made in China, not the U.S.

Everyone at my work who was originally from another country does speak and program (as in computer programming) in English. They also speak their original language.

I have never said that people who move to the U.S., work in the U.S., or want to become a citizen shouldn't have to learn English. The family members who usually don't learn English are the grandparents who feel too old to learn the language and often do not have to work. Anyone trying to get a job, won't get very far if they don't know English.

Suzanne, I thought this was only true about the UK and the English here .. you know, the people that think: "If anyone does not understand me, speak much louder, then they'll get it"

I know what it feels like to come to a country that speaks a different language to your's. When I came to England (from Germany) I thought I could speak English. :rolleyes: But I had learnt very little of the day-to-day things you need to know. So, I got busy and learnt ...

Still, I do agree, if you move to the UK or to the USA for that matter, or any other country, you should have to be able to speak the language. At least on a basic level. And if you can't, LEARN!

It is OK to maitain your own identity, but I don't agree with the attitude "There are many of us here now, so the country should chage for our convenience"

OK OK ... like Grace ... I have a big mouth ... But I get annoyed when people - in any country - immigrate and then expect special treatment from the "natives"

"When in Rome, behave like the Romans" is the saying here...

[/b]

Well said Margret.
And let's not forget that English is the international business language!
HCS

I don't think that our ancestors changed the words to the National Anthem.

Ok, I'll ask the question.

Was this a case of a nosy busybody who wanted the conversation in English so she didn't miss out on some potentially juicy gossip?

President Bush often speaks in Spanish at public appearances. On the campaign trail, Bush often would sing The Star-Spangled Banner in Spanish at Hispanic Festivals. Sometimes he even partied with a “Viva Bush” mariachi band flown in from Texas.

Once again, a translation does not change the official version of the song. All it does is translate it into another language. The song is not 'changed'. The official National Anthem is still in English.

FACT CHECK: (see above)
In 1919 the Star-Spangled Banner was translated into Spanish as commissioned by the United States Bureau of Education.

The U.S. State Department's website shows four Spanish-language versions of the national anthem, including the version which was copyrighted in 1919.

The "Star-Spangled Banner" has also been translated into a number of other languages. In 1861, it was translated into German . It has been translated into Yiddish by Jewish immigrants and into French by Acadians of Louisiana. It has also been translated into Latin and Samoan.

All this uproar about the latest translation into Spanish makes no sense at all. The National Anthem has been translated into many languages over the last 87 years! And even though it has been translated into other languages, the official version still is in English with the original words.

This is America. The official language is English. If you want to live in this country, work in this country, or raise your children in this country, learn the language. Don't expect Americans to learn your language for everyday communication.

As Ted Kennedy stated, "Most illegal immigrants are law abiding people." HELLO, Ted...should we call Bill Clinton for a definition of "illegal" and "law abiding"? He was the one who had imaginary real sex with Miss Lewinski.

Most of these "illegal-law abiding" people have several identities and SS#'s. Do you think that is because they want to be good American citizens several times over? Many know enough English to ask directions to the Transitional Assistance Office (Welfare Office).

Bob

I think the real uproar is being caused by the fact that, as I understand it, it is not a direct translation. Several of the lines are being re-written.

Mike

Oh, so the real issue here is immigration, not the translation of the National Anthem! There are 4 versions of Spanish translations of the National Anthem on the U.S. State Depts website. probably because it is difficult to make direct translations of a song and have it still fit the melody.

Everyone at my work who was originally from another country does speak and program (as in computer programming) in English. They also speak their original language.

I have never said that people who move to the U.S., work in the U.S., or want to become a citizen shouldn't have to learn English. The family members who usually don't learn English are often elderly people who feel too old to learn the language and often do not have to work. Anyone trying to get a job, won't get very far if they don't know English. But, that doesn't mean that Americans need to feel threatened by people speaking other languages.

I work in a city with a large university with students from all over the world. They need to know English or they wouldn't make it at the University. It would be really rude for any of us to yell "speak English, learn English" if we overheard a conversation in another language, especially because they already do know English, but do have the freedom to speak in other languages when they want to.

Bob,

To take your points one at a time-

1. English is not the official languge of the United States- actually there is none.

2. Like it or not other than the fact that they are here illegally most "undocumented" individuals are very law abiding. They ahve a fear of any contact with law enforcement even when they are the victim of a crime- something that many people take advantage of every day.

3. you are correct that many have more than one SS# but again for the most part they are not doing this for nefarious purposes- they are doing it to get a job and may have ahd the other number compromised due to one reason or another.

There is a large amount of money paid into the system through these SS # that never gets back to them due to the fact that they don't file income tax returns due to the fear of discovery.

don't get me wrong- I agree that the immigration situation is one that is fraught with problems but it's one that we have helped make by allowing employers to hire people under the table, winking at obvious counterfeit id's, etc.

We also actively support the present situation by hiring people ourselves to do work on our homes, etc. We also support the status quo because it benefits us with lower costs for many items we want.

How often has anyone asked if those people cutting your lawn, doing the landscape work, etc are legally here or do we just pay our $'s and look the other way?

Just some non-random thoughts.

On the topic this started- yes a large part of the problem with the spainish translation is that it's connected directly to the immigration situation today but a part of it is the fact that not only have words been changed for translation purposes others were changed to support the claims the illegals in this country are pushing at this moment in time.

Those words change the meaning , intent and spirit of the anthem. Yes, it is not changing the official one but a translation that changes the spirit and tone of the words is wrong and if done it should be remaned something else since it actually is something else at that point.

Dennis

My mistake, the unofficial language that most every legal US citizen speaks and reads daily. It's the unofficial language that we teach our children so they will be able to function anywhere in this country. It is our means of communication in every facet of life in this country.

The fact they are here illegally means they have broken the law and would not be considered law abiding in my book. If I stole money from you to start my own business and never broke the law again would I be considered law abiding? You break the law, you are not law abiding. I do see the dark side of these people who have multiple aliases, work many jobs under the table to avoid paying taxes, and then stroll down to the Welfare Office to collect their check under an assumed name and SS#.

Leaving a few bucks in a SS account is a small price to pay for all the untaxed dollars they earn and pocket. Besides that, they usually end up getting some sort of free services from the government. Then you must consider they are usually driving without a license and operating unregistered cars with no insurance. Law abiding individuals pay their license fee, registration fees, and insurance fees. What do you tell the party who was just rammed by an illegal alien's car when they find out they didn't have any insurance?

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I cut my own lawn, I do my own landscaping, I wash and wax my own vehicles, my builder who handled all my remodeling and the building of my addition a few years back is a licensed contractor born and bred in the USA, and so are all his employees. I do not seek cheap labor costs from illegals.

I don't pay my $'s and look the other way. You see, I'm law abiding and legal.

All this from the son of an Irish immigrant who came to this country legally and became a US Citizen, served his country in WWII in the Seabees, raised his family to be law abiding, gave us a good work ethic, and is still alive and kickin' at 89 years of age.

Immigration is fine when it's legal. Do it right or don't do it at all.

:rolleyes: Bob :rolleyes:

Bob,
As a legal immigrant, who went through the process and became an American Citizen I could not have said it better myself - I agree with you on all points!
HCS

RIGHT ON BOB. RIGHT ON.

Tom,
You really started some debate with this poll.
HCS

Bob,

Unfortunately simple answers are not usually very good for comples peoblems.

I'll expound just a bit- as you did not mean to misuse the word official I did not mean to imply that you specifically paid your money and looked the other way. I of course was referring to people in general not you specifically.

This is a big part of the problem- the government has looked the other way and not dealt with the problem. There are also many people- apparently not you and maybe not anybody related to you but surely people you know and yes work with- who don't care who cuts their lawn, landscape, etc who don't worry if that person is a legal worker or not.

Do you eat in restaurants- if so do you go into the kitchen or check the green card of the person who buses your table?

We all are part of the problem in one way or another, like it or not. Some are more a part of the problem- like the business owner who winks when the person comes in with obviously faked documents, etc.

The government is comlicit because even though they pass the laws they have not enforced them in part becvause big time contributors are some of the biggest beneficiaries of the illegal labor.

The problem is not going to go away just because you want it to. You can't deport 12 million people even if you truly wanted to.

Yes you are correct that these people broke the law and by the strictist definiton they are criminals- the statement wasn't if they had broken laws to come here. the statement was that other than the fact that they broke the immigration laws to come to this country the vast majority are otherwise law abiding people.

You did not address the concept that they are victims of crimes that they are fearful of reporting due to their situation. this is in and of itself a very serious situation.

I am noit defending the breaking of the immigration laws of this country- even if they are flawed and stacked against many of those who wish to come here.

The laws were completely different when your ancestors- as well as mine- came here. I know that some came in through Ellis Island and went through that procedure. Some just came over the border form Canada.

My basic point is that complex problems can't be solved by simple solutions and wishing them away.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on from this topic as we obviously see things differently. You are surely entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Dennis

Thank you, Dennis and Suzanne. Hopefully, levelheaded persons will prevail. I still think the Collector Forums should not be the place for posting such hot, explosive issues which only hurt feelings and make enemies where there should be none. I joined the forums to enjoy hearing about lighthouses and other "trivial" matters. Obviously, it is a forum open to whatever issue anyone wants to debate.

No enemies here that I know of, Grace. Trust me when I say my feelings aren't hurt at all. I enjoy a little verbal jousting every once in awhile. It makes things interesting as long as everyone understands that it is a collection of different opinions that aren't meant to hurt anyone or make enemies. Each party states their views knowing that nothing said here is actually going to change anything.

You are absolutely correct about joining the CF to hear about lighthouses and other matters. The Collector Forums is the best when it comes to the exchange of info about lighthouses and my favorite collectible, Harbour Lights. You are also correct in recognizing the fact we have forums to discuss or debate other issues. I feel those "other" topics add a little spice every once in awhile.

Bob

I'm back, Dennis.

I run into this problem quite often. We grab illegals for whatever reason, notify INS, and they just tell us they will not come for them so we have to let them go. Most claim they don't speak English but we know they do. They usually have several names and it can be extremely time consuming trying to figure out exactly who they are. They know that, and they just wait it out. We bring them to court and they get bailed and never return for trial. They just get a new identity and continue on their merry way.

I always remember a Cuban guy I got with two different ID's and a welfare card. The guy was not smart enough to have only one ID in his wallet. He had two right next to each other. He had a legal with him who translated. I asked him why he was so nervous. The legal told him to take his shirt off and show me. This guy had a scar from the tip of his right shoulder right down to his waist on the left side. I asked him how he got it. The legal said the Cuban police caught him out after curfew and ran a machete down his back to give him a little reminder, don't do it again. Interesting concept of "corporal punishment" to say the least. They know we don't do that up here so they really don't worry about doing something wrong that they will eventually walk away from.

We love to eat out, Dennis. If I ever raided the kitchens of most restaurants some people would never get their dinners. Not all workers are illegals though, but I'm sure there's a spattering among the kitchen and server crew. Another view on illegals working at restaurants is the fact they are willing to work for less. If there were no illegals, then owners would have to hire our fellow American citizens and pay them a living wage. I know, that isn't going to happen in every case.

It always made me wonder why a person from other areas of the world, whether is be the Far East, Central America, South America, or wherever, would want to come to a much colder climate with sometime terrible winters and settle down. Then the answer became obvious. Go where the best freebies are. Go where you get paid for doing nothing and also get paid for working on the side under another name. Where those folks come from their is no work or if there is, they can't make enough to support their families. We find the biggest influx of immigrants seem to be living closest to where our welfare offices are. Could that be a coincidence?

Their are plenty of hard-working legal immigrants in this country that did it right. Why should we have to accept illegals that have gotten to the point that they are fighting for their illegal rights. They don't automatically become citizens by running over our borders in the dark of night, or paying the slave traders to smuggle them into our country.

Enough said for now. "Back to you Chet...! "Thank you David."

Bob

I haven't gotten into this debate previously because the issue was "very hot" and I just didn't want to make a comment. However, I have to take exception with the quote above. While I'm not naive enough to believe that some folks do come here for "freebies", I also believe that the vast majority of the immigrants are looking for a better life financially and politically. Why would they put up with the cold and the hardship if they didn't HOPE that there could be something better? Isn't that what America was founded on?

You make a very valid point, Melody. What you state can be very true in some cases, but not all. The unfortunate part is their financial gain is some other legal citizens loss. Their "we will work for less and do the same job better" attitude is what sends Americans to the unemployment lines. Ironically many things that use to be manufactured in this country is now being done overseas with cheap, and in some cases, child labor.

I've seen many immigrants come to this country not necessarily for a better life but rather to profit enough to retire back in their old country. I remember two Greek guys who bought a pizza shop and worked 16 hours a day, seven days a week. I asked them if they ever took any time off. Their reply was that they would keep this pace up for seven years, sell the business, and go back to Greece and live like kings for the rest of their lives. Interesting concept of just doing seven years and be able to retire. This was back in the 70's so I don't know if the same thing would work today.

Politically, I cannot blame a person escaping cruel and abusive governments and trying to live in the land of the free and home of the brave. I accept that right up to the point where they try to take over. And you know what? Some day these illegals will outnumber your law-abiding American citizens, and they will take over, if we let them.

:rolleyes: Bob :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grace:
[QB] Thank you, Dennis and Suzanne. Hopefully, levelheaded persons will prevail.
So Grace,
If we dare to have a different opinion you consider us as not level headed??
HCS

Hilari, I had no idea this poll would bring about such a heated discussion. I really hope no ones feelings got hurt and that no enimies were made. Thats not what this poll and the forums are all about. Please see my next post which I feel very strongly about. It to, will probably spark a lot of debate and again, its not meant to be mean spirited. Its my feelings about this country and the people that live here.

I haven't said much of anything yet but I feel its time to bring in the words of President Teddy Roosevelt.
"Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American
flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the
English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and
that is a loyalty to the American people." ---Theodore Roosevelt

As Bob said and as you will see I agree whole heartedly with him Why should they get health benefits when some of our own people can't get them? Why should they get welfare benefits when some of our own people can't get them? When some of our own people, born and breed in the USA, all colors, and nationalities can't get them. Let's take care of our own. The list is endless. If your illegal you get nothing!! You're here and work here illegally, you know you're wrong and if you get caught take the consequences. Don't expect us to pay for you if you or your offspring get sick or hurt. Don't expect us to put food on your table. Again, the list is endless.
To quote Bob M again,
I'm retired for almost 20 years now and unfortunately I see nothing much has changed. Do you realize how frustating and disheartening this is. And to top it off now they're fighting for there ILLEGAL RIGHTS? Come on, GET REAL AMERICA, WAKE UP!!!!

Tom,
I agree 100% - then I guess I am just not level headed!
HCS

Well lets turn down the heat on this topic and have a little humor interjected to lighten the air of this discussion:

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and
extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going
to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to
make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas,
passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle
those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President
Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will
be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.


2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all
services I might need, whether I use them or not.


3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking
teachers.


5. Schools need to include classes on American culture
and history.


6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on
the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying
lower down.


7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both
breakfast and lunch.


8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I
can get easy access to government services.


9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I
won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.


10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does
not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure
that all police officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top,
put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July
4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the
locals.


12. I would also like to have a nice job without
paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.


13. Please tell all the people in the country to be
extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the
strain I might place on the economy.


I know this is an easy request because you already do
all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from
Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if
you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him
to go quail hunting with your V.P.


God bless America and all my buddies at the CF!

Great sense of humor Bob - sadly it is not a joking matter. Many if not all your sentiments are true!
HCS

I could go through the above posts and reply to each point one by one but I don't want to start more trouble.

I'll just ask one question of all the people complaining about the illegal immigrant problem of today-

Any idea what the Native Americans of this country think of all this? At least most of the illegal immigrants of today don't go around killing the residents and stealing their land and making agreements and breaking them.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Dennis

Some of you are making some very grave generalizations which are very offensive. In fact, much of what has been posted is extremely exaggerated and taken from media hype. Picking on Mexicans is one point; look at the statistics and who is really coming across the Mexican border. Although my college degree is in languages, I know the history and government of my country and don't need to be told that quotas were eliminated long ago. In reality, that is naivite of the worse sort. The point I was trying to make was not understood. I feel like Dennis; I want to go point by point but it is of no use. This thread was meant for those of you who are likeminded, not for the rest of us. You are very patriotic Americans. Next, we are going to be told, because our point of view is different from yours, that we are UNAMERICAN. I've had that happen before so it won't be the first time, despite the fact that my people were here from the beginning, as I have said before. If you think that all people are equal in this country, this thread is a good example that it isn't so. Freedom of speech is only for those who believe like you do.

I am truly sorry you feel that way Grace. This is not just about Mexicans, this is about all illegals. I disagree that most of this is taken from the media. I lived and worked with it for 23 1/2 years so don't tell me that its media. Just recently I was visiting some friends that have their own business along side another business. Both are in the aftermarket auto accessories & repairs business. To hear these people that go there to work, buy and "hang-around" brag about how they break the laws of our land and get away with it really burned me (they were not only Mexicans either). Driving without car insurance seemed to be one of the biggest, and they thought that that was fantastic. Sure they have an accident get out of the car and run like the wind. Try and find them. Nine out of 10 times you won't. To many address if they are even real.
You have as much right to voice your opinion as the next person and I would never (and I don't think anyone here would) deny you that right OR call you UNAMERICAN for taking advantage of that right. My people were here from the beginning too and they learned how to speak English and they did obey the laws just like I'm sure your people did. As far as being equal it would be nice to say it was so but its a fact of life that it is not. You have to work for things, its not going to be handed out. Or is it?? Freedom of speech is for anyone.
All you have to do is speak up. What about those people that spew hatered for us and this country. If they did that in their country they would most likely disappear never to be heard from again.

Maybe not most of them but a darn good number do.

Grace, I may not have a degree, but I did go to school and I had to make darn sure I knew the history and government of America, as I was tested on it during the citizenship exam!
And as Tom pointed out - we do have freedom of speech in this country, so it is not UNAMERICAN to have a different opinion.
HCS

I could find out the next time I go to Foxwoods Casino. The problem is I don't see that many Indians on the reservation.

Do you remember the "60 Minutes" program where they interviewed the hierachy of the tribe? Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought he said anyone person with at least 10% tribal blood running through his or her veins gets a free home on the reservation plus sixty grand a year in income. Not a bad job, I would say.

As far as the illegals coming to this country, lets give them an automatic citizenship in New Jersey if they promise to stay there forever. If they leave, then they would be illegal and could not return. That would solve all our problems.

All those in favor? Contrary minded?

Bob

Disclaimer: The information written by the author of this post does not reflect the opinion of anyone else but him. It is not meant to "tick" anyone off, create enemies, cause trouble, or inspire anyone from the other lighthouse site to come rushing in. It is meant to make people smile and make light of the whole topic being discussed her. The author would also like all readers to know that he prefers our National Anthem to begin with "Oh say can you see..." and not with "Jose can you see...".

My apologies (in advance) to those who take it too seriously, but remember, life is too short to be serious all the time. As one of my late buddies (died of cancer last year) stated, "We're not here for a long time. We're here for a good time!"

Bob

Bob,

Sorry I should have been a bit more precise in my comment- I was referring to the Native Americans who were here when the europeans came over and decided they needed the land more than those already here and proceeded to take it by hook or by crook, so to speak.

You are correct some Native American tribes are now making a killing with the Casinos and like any other business venture in this country that makes big bucks there are negative aspects to it as well as positive ones.

The vast majority of the remaining Native americans in this country do not have such a sweet deal.

I'd suggest another place for all the illegal immigrants- Oklahoma.

Here's my disclaimer- I too am not trying to attack anyone specifically. I'm voicing my opinions and they are not meant to be taken personally by any one individual. Some have in the past been interpreted that way. I always endeavour to make my points without being beliggerent and overly caustic. I refrain from name calling and I don't say someone is wrong when opinion is involved- I may if an inncorrect fact is mentioned, but not opinion.

I enjoy the back and forth on all issues here- lighthouse or otherwise but I can see how some can get tired of the dissension that crops up at times. You can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs - but the end rersult is usually good.

Dennis

Hey Dennis, thanks for the chuckle you gave me with that line. I like it.

Tom,

Glad to be of service. I may be a radical but I try and be nice about it- it usually works but some don't get it at times.

Dennis

Amen?

Bob

Time to put this one to bed?

HCS

GLASS NATION SHOULDN'T THROW STONES
by E.R. Shipp

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/415384p-351035c.html

The question of what to do about approximately 11 million immigrants who are in this country illegally has been clouded by so many distractions. Which flag should they carry during marches? Is it heresy to sing the national anthem in Spanish? Is an immigrants' rights movement a threat to the unfinished civil rights quest of blacks?

Behind all this is more than sanctimoniousness. There's a double dose of good old-fashioned hypocrisy.

Take the demand that would-be citizens pass a test on their knowledge of American traditions and laws. Plenty of American-born Ph.D.s could hardly cite entire passages of the U.S. Constitution or sections of a state's civil code.

And among those screaming about that controversial Spanish version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" are no doubt some who cannot even sing the English version themselves. A recent Harris poll indicated that 61% of American adults don't know the words. And I'd be willing to bet that those who hold the anthem in highest regard do not know the history of the song whose melody comes from an old, British beer-drinking song, "To Anacreon in Heaven."

I don't know whether First Lady Laura Bush understood this, or knew that the anthem has been translated into other languages throughout history, when she broke with her husband and said she takes no umbrage with a Spanish-language anthem. In any event, she was right.

Anyone familiar with a routine that Jay Leno has perfected on "The Tonight Show" is painfully aware of how ignorant so many native-born Americans are about history and geography. "Don't know much about geography" - a line from a pop tune - is their anthem. According to a recent survey by the National Geographic Society, they're not alone. Almost 60% of young Americans couldn't find Iraq on a map. One-third couldn't locate Louisiana.

As for history? Oh, my! Plenty of critics condemned the May 1 immigration rallies as some sort of un-American May Day activities that only the old Soviet Union and the current Cuba could appreciate. But May Day was chosen as a workers holiday internationally in honor of the labor movement's first American martyrs. It was they (in many cases immigrants) who, demanding an eight-hour work day, declared a general strike on May 1, 1886, in Chicago, triggering a chain of events including riots, mayhem, trials and executions, and, eventually, victories for ordinary working people.

Maybe the greatest advantage of being born here - of being American - is that we can proudly be know-nothings like members of a political movement of that name in the 1850s. According to The Reader's Companion to American History, the party grew out of the Order of the Star-Spangled Banner and was - surprise, surprise - anti-immigrant.