In many discussions, the topic has included dealers no longer carrying HL products, or closing up shop completely. This frustrates many because it makes it much more of a challenge to find products you would like to purchase. So many want to see and hold the pieces before they decide to purchase.

In my case, I have long appreciated the great service given to me by my dealer. They have always been friendly and if I ask them to hold a certain piece when it comes in, they will. This to me is why it is so important to have a local dealer. Of course, having a strong network of deatlers across the county is important to any collectible product.

Have you helped to cause some of the local dealers to stop carrying the line or close up shop? Have you been buying your items from dealers that you know are violating the terms of their dealer agreement and selling at deep discounts? You may save yourself a few bucks in the short run, but you are costing yourself in the long run. Every time you don't buy from your local non-discounting dealer you give them that much more reason to not carry the line. Don't blame them - why should they invest in an inventory of pieces for you to come in and look at then go online to a dealer you know is cheating the system and buy from them.

In the long run you are also helping to kill off the line by killing off the reputable dealer network. I have to believe this isn't your intent, but it is the outcome of losing sales to what amounts to cheaters.

Thanks Dave! That makes my job easier!

On an average week, I receive about 4-6 phone calls from Dealers, who are frustrated by both eBay and the discounting Dealer.

First let me thank John Chidester for his help in "unmasking"several Dealers that were selling on eBay. I gave them a choice, stop selling on eBay or lose the line. All but one stopped!They are no longer a Harbour Lights Dealer!

I recently had a call from a Dealer who reported, one of his regular Customers was in the store, asking to see HL HL 360 South Haven MI after the dealer took the Replica out of the box - showed the Collector its beauty when lit he asked if the collector wanted to buy it? He was told"No, I do not need you anymore, I can get the Replica on ebay for a lot less. He left the Dealer in shock!
Our business is the small independent retailer - I want to and need to protect. And so do you!
Starting in June, i will be tracking where Replicas go and I'll uncover the discounting! Why? To protect the Collectible integrity of the brand!

AJC

Great plan, Tony...

Those collectors' who've tried to buy on ebay and asked the seller what "number" the piece carried will get a run-around from the seller who wants to mask his/her status as a dealer.

Now to get eBay to agree that if you are selling a numbered limited edition item, you MUST post the number of the piece!

Uniform sellig price policy leads to stronger dealers who are more interested in providing deep product knowledge and high quality service -- that's what can differentiate them from their competitors when the prices are the same.

But dealers who sell at a discout -- including those who offer hidden discounts -- force the 'market' for that collectible to focus on price.

Where does it lead that discounter?

A temporary bump in sales -- but a smaller profit margin. That smaller profit margin can lead to the downward spiral that ends up closing the doors.

That end result kills one dealer at a time, but it hurts many others if there's a 'close-out sale'. Now the dealer is just trying to break-even by selling it for the wholesale price. Or is just trying to get anything out of the piece. They will probably declare bankruptcy, so they can wipe out the money still owed to Harbour Lights and keep the 25 cents on the dollar to meet a tax bill or attorney fee for the bankruptcy. (The attorneys get paid before the IRS.)

You CAN BE CERTAIN that when you see the very latest Harbour Lights introduction appear on eBay it has to be from a dealer. Why would any individual buy a piece at retail and then turn around and sell it for less than they paid for it.

Let's report these eBay listings to Tony. Just send a link to the eBay listing to Tony.

In my opinion, you are protecting the value of your personal collection when you help maintain fair pricing for the latest models.

“You CAN BE CERTAIN that when you see the very latest Harbour Lights introduction appear on eBay it has to be from a dealer. Why would any individual buy a piece at retail and then turn around and sell it for less than they paid for it.”


This is a very bold statement and not always true. I for one, sometimes do this. You will always see a number in my listing. My reasons I will keep to myself.

I'm trying my best to support my local dealer. On occassion I do buy a HL or two from a mail order HL dealer at full price, but 95% of my purchases are at full price from my local HL dealer.

Its nice that the folks at HL want us to be loyal and pay full price at our local dealers, this helps the dealer network, but they could also help with collectors trying to setup steady collecting. I wanted to become an autoship customer, as long as it was a two digit and as long as I didn't have to change dealers. I asked for help from HL via email, but didn't even get a response.

Help should work both ways. Especially those that are willing to pay full price.

I, like many others, try to use the dealers to get my new pieces but I have a good incentive. I am partners with another club member on a very low number auto ship. Also, this dealer ships to me no charge, and these days that is a real value in itself. This dealer is about an hours drive from me (I have lost 3 dealers and each one is a little farther away than the last) and at the price of gas today, its even an investment just to pick it up at the dealers store.

However, my partner is first in line for choice of pieces, and if my internet friend (and she knows who she is) can't find me a low numbered piece through her dealer network, I will buy a new piece as a last resort from Ebay.

I think each person needs to evaluate their own situation. I also believe what has been said by the others in this topic that we ourselves control
the market and support of the dealer network is ultimately the servival of the product. I really think this a quality product at a reasonable price and would not like to see it go away.

I am not all that concerned about the "value" of my collection because as my wife says when I use that excuse to buy an expensive piece, I won't be selling them anyway. I enjoy having something I can show to others and say "these look just like the real ones, I know, because I've been there". This usually leads to a conversation about lighthouses and maybe another supporter for preservation. So if you want to ensure your own access to a good product and help lighthouse preservation, support your dealer.

Thanks for reading the ravings of a collecter and keep the lights burning.

My sentiment exactly. I don't collect for the value, but for the joy of the pieces! The detail and craftsmanship, the love that has been moulded into the replicas etc. That is what makes me collect and love them!

I am in a situation where I do have a dealer, but he is in the US and so I can not buy as many pieces as I would like from him (the postage etc. makes that too expensive) That of course is not our dealer's fault - he does what he can to help!

I agree with the need to support the dealers and do my best. But for me that means I can buy fewer HLs.

So I do occasionally succumb to an eBay deal. But I try and pay fair prices and when it get too cheap I get suspicious. And of course I try and buy from this side of the pond. Not likely that those guys are "rogue dealers" !

Then saying that ... there are LLOMs for £1 to be had here ... regularly ... Makes you wonder how they can do that. It is always the same 24 lights ... but there is a real glut of those ...

I would be more than happy to support my local dealer IF I had one. Since I don't I have found a very helpful dealer on the east coast who I will continue to buy from and get free shipping as a bonus.

Tom

I do not have a dealer locally but have a wonderful one on the east coast. All I have to do is email or call them and they take real good care of me.

I have not taken very many lighthouse trips, but the ones I have been on, I have purchased a piece or two from their gift store.

I have in the past bought older pieces from ebay. But have not bought anything for quit a while. Most older pieces that I an looking for and can not get from my dealer, I have been able to purchase from a member of these forums.

I am going to post a reply to this topic which I'm sure will be very unpopular to say the least.

While I have bought from a local dealer from the very beginning and support my dealer by being on autoship, I feel that a dealer has the right to sell their pieces in anyway they can since it is THEIR money that is being tied up in inventory. Harbour Lights sells to the dealer at percentage of what the suggested retail price is. As long as the dealer pays Harbour Lights their price, it should be up to the dealer if they want to sell at less or more then retail. It is the dealers money that is tied up and not Harbour Lights money. If Harbour Lights was using the dealer as a consignent outlet, without the dealer fronting any money, then I feel that Harbour Lights has the right to control the selling price. Harbour Lights has sold THEIR product and received THEIR profit so why penalize the dealer for trying to get their money back? The secondary market is destroyed and EBAY may have contributed to the demise, but, we as buyers have most of the blame for the demise in secondary market costs, not the dealer. If all collectors, big or small, bought lighthouses as they used to buy them, and if the economy was better, then the secondary market would still be there.

Let's not blame the dealers for trying to make a living. This is my opinion and I expect it to be unpopular but I had to voice my support to the dealers trying to make a living and still continue supporting Harbour Lights by buying and selling their product.

Let's address a few things.

First, I probably should have titled this thread "Support your retail dealer" as that was my intention. Unfortunately, some no longer have the benefit of a dealer in their area. There are a number of very reputable and excellent dealers who do much of their business with people they may never meet in person. Nothing at all wrong with this. They are retail dealers and helping to keep the line going.

As for taking a two digit autoship number away from one dealer to give to another - don't think this is going to happen as long as the dealer that currently receives it continues to be a dealer in good standing. That certainly would not be fair to the current dealer who may have that number promised to a collector. This is kind of a situation where your dealer will have to wait in line for another dealer to give up a two digit autoship. Of course, it is up to the dealer to be sure HL knows they would like a two digit and have a collector who would begin autoship if they were to receive one. HL does not sell to collectors, so it is a dealer responsibility to be sure the desire is made known.

Rich, a part of the dealer agreement with HL is that they will sell at MSRP. Dealers know that (or certainly should if they read the agreement) and should honor that requirement. If they feel they need to dump product to stay afloat, they should stop their autoship and cease being a HL dealer. These dealers make a concious decision to violate an agreement and in so doing they make it difficult for other honest dealers to compete on an even footing. This type of clause in a dealer agreement is not unique to HL. To me personally, it does not say much about the integrity of a dealer that is so willing to violate the terms of their agreement. I don't think I could trust that dealer enough to do business with them. All they are doing is chasing away legit dealers, and when they have done that they will also be chasing away the collector that wants the pieces.

Don't care about the secondary as that is pretty much in the dumper at this point. I do care about the viability of the line and its ability to find enough customers to sell product to that they can continue.

"A part of the dealer agreement with HL is that they will sell at MSRP. Dealers know that (or certainly should if they read the agreement) and should honor that requirement. If they feel they need to dump product to stay afloat, they should stop their autoship and cease being a HL dealer. These dealers make a concious decision to violate an agreement and in so doing they make it difficult for other honest dealers to compete on an even footing. This type of clause in a dealer agreement is not unique to HL. To me personally, it does not say much about the integrity of a dealer that is so willing to violate the terms of their agreement. I don't think I could trust that dealer enough to do business with them. All they are doing is chasing away legit dealers, and when they have done that they will also be chasing away the collector that wants the pieces."

Dave - While I agree with the concept of a dealer honoring their commitment to Harbour Lights to only sell the product at MSRP, there are exceptions to this agreement. If I were a dealer whose lifeline was selling Harbour Lights as part of their line and the survivalship of my store was at jeopardy, I would sell at less then MSRP to keep afloat.

Harbour Lights gets their money up front, and as long as they get their money, should be elated that stores advertising on EBAY or selling at a discount in their store, are still buying the product. My feelings on this subject are of course my opinion and should not be construed as bad mouthing Harbour Lights or it's management. They are trying hard to keep the company afloat and profitable, but, in the changing collectible market, they should have more compasion for the dealer trying to make a living. The agreement to sell Harbour Lights at MSRP was the way to go when the collectible market was on the upswing and highly profitable, but, now dealers are struggling to make a living and all things must come to an end. Harbour Lights should re-evaluate their selling policy or they won't have a dealer market to sell their product to.

I've said enough on my thoughts and opinions and will just read other's thoughts and not comment any more on this topic.

Rich, if a dealer is so down on their luck that selling HLs for a buck a pop profit is their salvation, they should probably fold up their tent and go home. I believe the continual repeat offenders are in fact doing all they can to hose their fellow dealers and beat them out of a full price sale. I won't feel bad for them if HL pulls the plug on them.

Let's put things in a little different perspective that you should relate to. Back in the day, if one of my young sailors had come up to me and said "Gee, Senior, I just don't feel like the enlistment contract I signed was working for me so I decided to do a few things differently" I can only imagine the outcome once I was done rolling on the deck. Right after the Captain was done with his turn at laughter, I'm thinking the young lad would have been headed for the brig.

Little extreme, but the concept is the same - you sign on under a set of rules and agree to follow the rules, you need to keep your word or suffer the consequences.

Can I put my two cents in here? Too bad I'm going to anyway.

I see nothing wrong with the poor dealer who is closing up shop to find a living elsewhere. Or as Dave said folding up their tents and going home, Marking down merchandise, be it HL's or otherwise, to clear out his (or her) stock. That is unless Harbour Lights has some kind of buy back program, of which I'm not aware of. He's got to clear out his inventory to close the doors on his business.

However, these dealers whom we all see on ebay all the time. Are just WRONG! If they are going to continue doing business as usual then they need to abide by the contract. These are the ones that are killing the Collectable Market. These dealers need to be punished and STOPED!

Now I'm not saying anything against ebay. Ebay is still a good way for individuals to sell off their collection after other sources have been eliminated. Sometime back I bought several pieces off ebay. But they were always retired pieces that I couldn't find elsewhere. And to the best of my knowledge they where all from individuals not dealers.

But now days when I go on ebay, 3/4 of what is listed is current merchandise. Sometimes I see pieces listed on ebay at half price or less when my autoship dealer hasn't even received his stock yet. And that just isn't wright!!! This is what is killing the market for our dealers, for us, for Harbour Lights and all collectibles.

IMHO

Since I dropped my auto ship because of poor customer service, I haven't purchased any HL's with the exception of the CF Exclusive, Wisconsin Point. I ordered two of those. Now there is no hurry to run out and purchase the latest releases that I like. I'll wait until I visit a dealer and just purchase them from the dealer's stock.

It was tough to give up two auto ships (LE & AB) with low flag numbers, but I finally grew tired of lip service. It's actually worked out to my advantage because I no longer receive HL's that I don't have interest in, and would only remain in their boxes in my storage area. Now I can buy what I like, when I feel like purchasing it.

I still have over 650 HL's in my collection. Hopefully, I'll be able to move a few to a new home every now and then. The ones I have sold seem to make people smile so maybe I can do more of that. It would be nice to reclaim some of the space they occupy in my cellar. It seems a shame to just have them sit there and not be enjoyed by someone who would appreciate having them in their collection.

Bob

First off, I don't expect a current dealer who has an autoship customer to give it up. I'm suggesting availability.

I know for a fact that there are two digit pieces assigned to dealers who don't have specific collectors for them. Would a dealer help out another dealer? Sounds like some dealers are asking for help with selling at full price, but aren't willing to help in other ways.

And what about these dealers who have gone to the dark side(sorry, I've been watching a few Star Wars movies lately) and sell on Ebay at below list price. Some of these pieces are two digit. Can't HL drop them as dealers and assign them to dedicated collectors?

As for contacting my dealer and getting on a waiting list, I've already tried this. My dealer won't do this because a HL rule for autoships is that a dealer can't contract one autoship at a time, they must do it in pairs. My dealer doesn't want the second autoship. They are struggling already and don't want to added additional stock. HL should ease this rule.

This is why I'm doing the leg work, using the CF and also emailing HL. My hope is either HL, a dealer who reads the CF, or another CF member might help me along. Is it that much to ask? I think the HL collecting community is a small enough group that this is a possability. I know I would do it for them.

I'm just someone willing to buy more HL's and pay full price. Hopefully this is my last word on the subject.

I believe HL may have eased off of the required two piece commitment to receive an autoship. Your dealer should call and speak to Tony to confirm this.

If someone purchases a two digit piece from a rogue dealer who is dumping on eBay, and will provide the dealer name to HL, I would bet that dealer would be cut off. However, it will take a purchaser/ collector to turn them in. As HL determines what dealers are dumping, I believe Tony has stated that they will be dealt with. Again, if you know of one do let HL know who they are.

If you know of a dealer who is unable to move a two digit piece and would like to cut back their commitment to HL, you (or preferably your dealer) might contact them to ask if they would release that number by lowering the number of autoships they receive.

It is great that you are trying to support a local dealer - they stand to really benefit from your commitment. However, I would hope the dealer might be willing to invest a little time in a phone call or two to help work out a deal for you to get a two digit autoship sent to them.

I will talk to my dealer about this again.

I'll do what I can.

I sense a little sarcasism. I didn't say the dealer wasn't able to move the two digit pieces, but would they help out another dealer. In the long run it will help out them. If they expect collectors to always pay more instead of shopping on Ebay, won't they stretch themselves a bit?

I'm trying to avoid the dark-side.

Loon - If you are truly interested in getting a 2 digit Autoship, then please email me. You will have to buy from the dealer that has it because he will not transfer it to another dealer as it just became available. Here's your chance to get one so don't hesitate.

Well it looks like theirs another two digit autoship collector in CF world.

Yes, I just got the word that I'll be receiving all future LE & AB releases with the same two digit number through my local HL dealer. I'm pretty excited right now.

I've already thanked my local HL dealer. Thank you to those at Harbour Lights to help set this up and many thanks to Dave Hannum for your advice.

I'm not sure who else might have helped behind the scenes, but many thanks if you did help.

I now hope to help in the uncovering of dealers that dump new releases on Ebay.

Congratulations on your good fortune, Stan. It is great that you will have a two digit, but even greater that your local dealer will be able to continue to be your dealer.