The Ebay goes on! For the first two parts of this thread click on the following:


Part One

Part Two

in Part II, engbrady writes:



I think they are and its only naive to ignore the issue, not to examine it.

In the case at hand, where the person in Pt 2 is adopting a self-interested point of view perhaps they can be appealed to by self-interest. (This by the way has nothing to do with ethics, which I taught for several years, so please don't get me started.) If you patronize a dealer who cannot keep their word with a business partner, you shouldn't be surprised if that same dealer doesn't keep their word with you. For example, you bring home a piece you bought for $20 off list only to discover it has a broken fence, or ball vent. You take it back to the dealer and they say - sorry all sales are final. Even though you were sold damaged goods, the dealers actions toward you are not much different from their actions toward their business partner (in this case HL).

Granted this is all hypothetical. If you are willing to deal with someone whose action you benefit from even though this benefit is at the expense of another then don't expect special consideration in the second situation, where the same party is benefitting but this time at your expense. Afterall, you should know who you're dealing with.

__
/im

I couldn't agree with St. Paul and St. Timothy and others with like postings more.

The practice of voluntarily signing a binding agreement then blatantly violating its terms shows me a distinct lack of business ethics and personal integrity. My Daddy always taught me "You're only as good as your word".

I've never taught ethics but I vaguely remember an ethics course or two in college. No Tim, I'm not trying to get you started.

To paraphrase Tim in more vernacular:

"If you'd cheat Harbour Lights or Y&A whenever it seemed convenient then you'd surely cheat me, your customer, when it was convenient.

If this isn't lack of ethics it's certainly poor business practice. And like any form of dishonesty, it becomes easier and easier after the first time.

"Thank you for reading" says Lamar as he gingerly steps down from his soap box...
[This message has been edited by LamarB (edited 11-30-99).]

If you look carefully at what is going on on Ebay, you would find that the total quanity of Harbour Lights listed is not anything to get excited about. I did a little checking and found that of 399 items listed, 203 of them are listed by only 4 Sellers!! Another 82 are from 6 additional sellers. Very few of these are not current pieces. Also included in that total are the Mark Sherman prints, the event pins, tote bags, calendars, etc. Many of these "major" sellers are simply re-listing the same pieces over and over. A good example is a La Coruna piece that has been listed 8 times since Oct 9, always at $75. ( Only 4 of this pieces have sold since mid-September ,2 at $47, 1 at $52.95 and 1 at $61 ) $75 is just not going to move! So, many of the pieces you see listed are the same pieces as were last month and the month before. (And buyers were not interested then, nor will they be now, so expect to see them again and again.

This topic has been pretty quiet for a while. If you thought that you would never be able to afford Navesink, check out ebay. Lots of good prices on "THE DOORSTOP" lately. Some pieces have been creeping back up. Thomas Point for one. Any ideas on the Coquille prices now that the glow is out, or is that a topic for another thread? Seems lower than in the past put I have no real numbers on it.

[This message has been edited by orv (edited 12-12-99).]

If my mind serves me correctly, I think a certain Coastie got his Coquille for less than those three posted auctions.

We can debate what colletibles are worth but in the final analysis they are actually worth what some other collector is willing to pay at a particular time.

When you put an item on eBay you have to ask yourself a question: "Do you feel lucky?"

That's the word from the East Coast where it's 37 degrees, clear, and my electric meter is spinning at "warp speed" supporting all my Christmas lights.

Bob

[This message has been edited by Bob M (edited 12-12-99).]

I would agree with Bob that after all discussion is concluded concerning why prices on eBay are what they are, the only explanation that carries any weight is that any collectible is only worth what some collector is willing to pay for it. I believe that the on-line auctions in 1999 have provided and will continue to provide a great service in helping to determine what real market values are. This year's publications (Greenbook, etc.) provided an excellent starting point for establishing a legitimate value structure. However, this year's auction activity has shown that many of the published numbers were, indeed, high. The 1999 versions of the price guides were based in great part on various independent secondary dealers' published prices since they represented the only legitimate extractable information source. These dealers for several years provided a great service to the hobby through their generation of the hobbies only central clearinghouses. However, the hobby value guides now have additional sources to research. Hopefully, the 2000 version of these same publications will reflect this year's ending auction amounts in with the secondary dealers' contributions. Add to this the ongoing saturation of the consumer home market with computers which certainly should continue the collectors' ability to gather information. It simply seems logical then that the more transaction information that's available on any given collectible and the easier it is to acquire and process that information, the more accurate the determination of the actual market value of that collectible should be. So, what's happening on eBay? Given enough transactions so that all the reasons for people selling and buying can work themselves into a normal distribution curve, what's happening is that each collectible's true market value should now be slowly, but inevitably, evolving.

Hi Sean, Do you mean you didn't buy it because it had been repaired or did you mean you got it for a deal because it was repaired. When you get to be my age the mind can play tricks on you....lol! No, I guess I'm not that old yet!

Bob

Speaking of 'repaired' (or more aptly 'needs repair'), those HLs that have been beaten like a rented mule are back on eBay. Yikes!



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Ken T

There are 8 of those "damaged" pawn shop pieces back on Ebay because 1 bidder won the 8 auctions and never contacted or made payment to the seller (per negative feedback given to the bidder). Why bid on anything if you aren't willing to complete the transaction? He had to have seen the photos before he bid! I would hope that I never have this guy as a high bidder on my auctions.

I have run in to the same situation a couple of times on ebay. I recently sold an item, non Hl, seasonal Xmas item that the timing of selling at the first of DEC was critical to the final price. The high bidder after contacting 3 times finally replied and sent their address via email. I never received payment and they will no longer reply to my email. The next highest bidder has now purchased another item and I have lost the window of opportunity to sell this item this year. I had to pay the end of auction fees so I am not real happy. I did not leave them negative feedback due to the fact that I don't want to get negatives in retaliation. I feel it's better to live and let live, but it is still very inconsiderate for someone to do this.

My luck continues with eBay users. I just received five more Dept 56 pieces from different eBay sellers and everyone of the pieces were fine. "Knock on wood", I haven't had a bad experience on eBay yet!

Bob

My ebay experiences have been positive to date. The only times
something was not as listed, the buyer refunded my money including cost to return item to them. I try to only buy from high positive feedback sellers. But one is at the mercy of other people in this 'virtual world' auction environment.

I've had only positive experiences with ebay (even with items that have nothing to do with HL's). I do have one concern- in the post above an individual states that they are reluctant to leave negative feedback because of retaliation. If this happens how do we even begin to rely on the feedback. I know, it's a question that has no easy answer- like which came first the chicken or the egg. I guess you have to read between the lines on the feedback. It's hard because it all sounds the same. Dennis

Hi Dennis, ...Leaving negative feedback may result in receiving negative feedback. It kind of defeats the purpose it was designed for. You take a chance when you buy or sell on eBay. Do you feel lucky? Perhaps the safest thing to do is to ask the seller questions before you put that final bid in. Another good idea is to ask for references or perhaps contact a few of his or her positive feedback to see if that person is reliable.

So far, so good for me and eBay!

Bob

My three purchases on e-bay have all been very possitive. Hope the trend continues. I still prefer seeing a piece before buying but when a piece I can't find comes up I'll bid on it. Lately there have been some good ones. Like Old Point Loma for under $100. I guess you take your chances with e-bay but so far so good!

Dale

Just got done checking eBay out for HLs. It seems the numbers of HLs being offered on eBay has been reduced considerably from its pre-Christmas highs. Only 115 being offered at auction when I checked it.

Bob

Whew!!! Just finished reading all 3 threads of this topic. They would make great material for a lecture or a debate at any business college.
It's really funny what people say or how people react when $MONEY$ becomes involved. I started collecting Harbour Lights because:

1) They were attractive
2) They had great craftsmanship
3) I like lighthouses
------ (Notice $ hasn't come up yet)-----
4) They reminded me of interesting places
5) It facilitated new friendships
6) They had a lot of history behind them
------ (Notice $ hasn't come up yet)-----
7) They made great conversation pieces
8) They were a Better quality product than other brands
9) They were fun to display
------ (Notice $ hasn't come up yet)-----
10) Etc;
11) Etc;.......

Some of the people on these threads talk about "low" secondary market prices as if they were talking about their stocks or mutual funds! At what point did the things above not become important? Please don't say they still are because once you worried about their resale value, you crossed over a line over which you can't credibly step back.
A friend and I each have a modest collection by most of your standards and some of the pieces are probably "hard to find", but what they are worth never comes up. We actually bring one piece or another to our work every few days or when we get a new piece and share it with each other and with our work associates. We look at the great craftsmanship or a new feature or detail that we just discovered or had forgotten about or a new factoid we had just learned. We've even started a few more people collecting them. As far as we are concerened, our small collections are PRICELESS to us because of how hard we worked to get them, and because of how much we enjoy looking at them.... I guess I didn't realize how many folks started into this as "An Investment". I had always believed that they just happened to like Harbour Lights & Lighthouses.
And for all the espoused "Moral & Ethical" afficionado's who also posted, I guess that when you go to any store to buy something and they have five items on the shelf of what you want, but one of them is mismarked at a lower price, I suppose you just put that one back and pick up the higher priced one or else bring it to the attention of the retailer. Isn't that what you would do if you were truly ethical? SURE YOU DO....Well, I guess this will get everyone fired up for a while. (Hey, I just wanted to get involved in this great thread).

Happy New Year & Millenium to all (and I know that deep inside you/we DO all love our little Harbour Lights!!!)

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JB

As a matter of fact, the monitor on the computer that I am using for this post is a case in point. There were three of the same model in boxes and this one was marked $50 less than the other two. I pointed out to the salesperson and he took one of each price to the checkout counter to scan the price. My monitor was listed $50 less in their computer and they sold it to me at the scanned price. The checkout person said that my monitor had been on sale and the price went back up with the next shipment they received. So honesty can very well be the best policy and I think you would be surprised how honest most people are especially with this group on the forums. You might want to read some other forums before making such a general judgement. By the way, when you talk to your friend about your lighthouses you’d better talk about the price or you actually will become part of the group who avoids talking about price.


SaintWackoPaul '
Keep the Flame

1) Thanks for the reply.

2) Point Taken.

3) I have no doubt everyone in the forums is extremely honest, and I would like to think the same about myself, but in the end, it seems to be a very subjective call. I have done the same as you (pointed it out to the sales person) with some items form time to time, but I can't honestly say that it is a golden rule that I have never broken.

4) I think it's human nature to try and find a "good deal". Otherwise, the only reasons that I can think of for shopping at a place like E-Bay are A) that your retailer doesn't or can't seem to get a piece, B) that you are looking for a retired piece, or C) that you live in a area where access to retailers is difficult.

5) Just recently there was a "signing event" in our area and my friend mentioned to Bill Younger (a super nice guy) that he really wanted a certain retired piece. Bill paused and told him that there were still some around at retail and he brought his local or regional Rep over to help get the info and track it down. My friend got very excited. ....Well let me tell you how that worked. After six weeks he still didn't hear from the rep nor could they be tracked down. Then my friend said the heck with it and went on-line. If that HL rep had made a miniscule effort, they could have kept this customer at a retail store. It wouldn't have been hard to do.

6) On E-bay I see people buying HL like they were the last pieces on earth. I can get AT LEAST half of them at a retailer either locally or mail order or at retail website. Yet people still buy them at incredibly ridiculous high prices at well. I suppose it's just part of the mentality of an acution. I recently bid on a piece that was pretty "low" just to see if I would get lucky. Instead of proxy's I placed my bid's live. Well after three rounds of miniscule outbidding, I reached what I felt was the limit of my bargain price and where I was approaching my local retailer's price. I signed off and left but an hour later when I went to see how it ended, apparently my moves (helped) set off a busy round of bidding with about 5 new people and the price went way over retail for a just retired piece that is laying around in a lot of places. I think E-Bay is not a study in the "Financial" merits of collecting but rather one in the "Behavioral" aspect of it.

7) Oops.. lost count FYI I have bought about 70% at my local retailer at full price, about 15% either mail-order or retail website at full price, and about 15% discounted either on E-Bay, or mail-order at a discount price.

Later & Happy New Year to all again!

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JB

Welcome to the Forums JB. Having been a registered user of this Forum since its beginning and on the previous AOL site, I can honestly say that the people on this Forum are some of the most helpful people I know. There has never been a lack of information for any question I have had or in finding a particular HL that I am looking for. The same goes for the people who work for Harbour Lights when I have contacted them.

I do think that it is a little premature, however, for a person who has only been a registered user for 8 days to be so critical of the people here. Hopefully, after a while you will see things a little differently.

Tom

My apologies again
I wasn't attempting to criticize anyone because it is clear that everyone on all sides/opinions of all the commentaries on this thread all have some very good points and there seemed to be frustration because no simple answers exist (depending on your perspective). I was hoping to participate by adding a wee bit more controversy. My regrets again
In the future, I shall endeavour to be more constructive
and diplomatic After all, I wouldn't have registerd in the forum if I hadn't been overwhelmed by the extensive breadth, knowledge, and experience of it's participants. Thanks for your patience.

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JB

>>Some of the people on these threads talk about "low" secondary market prices as if they were talking about their stocks or mutual funds! <<

Suffice it to say some folks are interested in all aspects of their hobby which includes the secondary market and hows and whys of the price history of the models. Some folks are interested in building major collections, but doing so in a way that reduces cost.

I have never met a collector (as opposed to a dealer) who considers the pieces as investments on par with 'hard asset' collectibles such as stamps and coins, much less one who considers them like the stock/fund market. But there are several folks who, after sinking $10,000+ into their lighthouse model collections, choose not to be unaware of their monetary value.

Don't be afraid of adding a 'wee bit of controversy' - its part of what makes these forums go round. "The Secondary Market" forum is a relatively new forum, and also relatively controvery free. If you want to read some interesting threads on pricing and discussions about collecting, check out the By The Numbers forum and The Fog Signal Building. Use the drop down list box in the upper right to look at thread titles from further in the past. There are some real doozies - and some good information that can help any collector.

For what its worth, I didn't get the sense you were criticizing anyone in particular, and I thought your messages were interesting to read. No need for apologies - at least not imo.

Welcome aboard,
__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 12-31-99).]

Welcome JB. All in all I agree with you. I felt the same way about the forum as you and still do in some aspects. But, I have used the secondary market as well as calling Harbour Lights to assist my search for lighthouses. So I will have to agree with Sean on that aspect. My suggestion is to use this site as a tool for your collection and use others opinions to reinforce your own ideals. Everyone has different passions in life and I think the majority of the people on this site have chosen Harbour Lights as their passion. Although Harbour Lights is not my passion, I am a Harbour Lights collector and use this site because of the wealth of information. Happy collecting and don't get discouraged.

Welcome JUL! I am a Wacko here in the forums but as I've only been collecting for a year I'm a newbie in that regard.

Now I collect HL's for all the reasons you stated above but am also concerned with the cost as my funds are far from unlimited. While I enjoy shopping at my local dealer, when comparing retail prices with some of the bargains found on Ebay or the Marketplace I find it hard to resist buying from those sources.

With so many of the 9500 and 10000 edition HL's out there I feel it's really foolish to pay retail if you don't have to. And many of the Ebay sellers of these "bargains" are dealers trying to clear their backlog of HL's. As the new year ushers in edition sizes in the 6500 and 8000 range as well as a new collectors, I see an upwards trend in secondary market prices.

Hi Mombo! (& all)

We "spoke" in a HL chat room in mid December . As I stated in my previous posts, I get about 70% of my stuff at a local retailer. Today, I went in to them and had them place an order for me for the new Ft. Jefferson piece when they go to the marketplace this comming week. In April(?) when it's available, I know I can show up and take it home ON-THE SPOT . Can't do that on E-bay & mail-order .

For me, E-bay is more like a casual "fishing hole" where I may or may not find or get something as evidenced by the smaller amount that I get from there. Also for me, it's for when funds are low (which is more often that I might sound like).

As far as the main topic of this thread, it looks like the count is now back up to 160 items from a low of about 106 in the last week. Some of the strategy mentioned in the forum is coming to pass. High starting price items are stagnant and low (but reasonable) ones are getting a bit of action and creeping up there with plenty of time to go.

My other observation is that like many of you, I don't even have to look to see who is selling what. You can almost tell by the item description, the starting price, and the start date.



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JB

It's been a little quiet here lately, It seems to my observations that HL prices have been climbing on ebay lately. Bob M, or any others that keep a close watch, is that what you have seen lately? Anybody see the Panama Set go for $197.50 yesterday. Good Grief!

I posted a note yesterday regarding ebay. I was curious to see if the registration contest by HL will have an effect on the amount of sales on ebay. Unless you purchase from an authorized dealer and have the receipt, I don't think you can enter the contest. For those of you tracking ebay sales, let us know if you see a difference in the amount of sales in next three months compared to previous months.

Joanne

Orv Wrote:

“Anybody see the Panama Set go for $197.50 yesterday. Good Grief!"

You betcha I saw that! You just beat me home to post it. This particular seller had 6 of those Panama pieces for sale at one time in December and early January with a pretty high reserve. He (or She) would start the bidding at $50 but I didn’t see any hit the reserve until one sold for at least $90. And now they’ve managed to SQUEEZE $197 (plus shipping) out of somebody.

Collectors on this forum have seemed to want lower edition quantities but here is an example of what can happen with a small edition size, which in this case is 4,000. First, this seller apparently got their hands on at least six pieces (that seems odd because in the chat rooms, a HL "insider" told me that a dealer would have been unlikely have gotten so many Panama pieces), next several folks on the Forum claim to have “multiples” (1-for personal collections, 2-for investment, 3-for trade), and so the “true” available volume for the market was induced to exacerbatedly low levels. Many people looking for the Panama Canal pieces have had a difficult time due to this environment. Some may call it hoarding.

I realize that Ebay can be an unpredictable place where often times human behavior overcomes financial practicality. Ultimately, Ebay is a form of free enterprise at work and I should be happy for the seller because they got “max” for their product and for the buyer who “got” what they wanted and who was ultimately responsible for their own bid. On the other hand, and what point does it cross the threshold of that unpleasant terminology called “gouging”?





[This message has been edited by JULB (edited 01-20-2000).]

Whether you like it or agree with it.... It is called free enterprise, and that's what the USA economy is based on. The adage of 'buyer beware' or maybe better yet... 'There's a sucker born everyday', should apply to all of the auction sites. They are based on trust, which isn't a bad thing.... but something about 'one bad apple'....

SaintWackoPaul '
Keep the Flame

Maybe it was win one for the Gipper.....

Hi JB,

I was also surprised to see the price on ebay. But now that you know about the forum, it should be much easier for you to reserve a piece early. That is what I did. When I first heard about the Panama set, and heard the edition size was 4,000, I placed a call immediately to my local dealer requesting that one be put aside for me. I did the same thing when I saw La Coruna on the forum. Thanks to all the great people on the forum, we are usually among the first to learn of important news.
Joanne

This is becoming an interesting conversation. I don't understand the problem with an asking price for Panama of $197.00. No more than I see a problem with a $500.00 Cape Hatteras or $300.00 Tybee. As I saw stated before, it's a free enterprise system. That's why Uncle Bill makes a 4000 unit edition size. Does someone think that he ran out of modeling compound? I think he knew it was a special piece and he wanted it to have this effect on people. You'll notice that most of the people on Ebay are not collectors, they're sellers, and that's okay because it allows some of us po' folk to own some moderatley priced pieces. This is what limited editions are about. Until Mr. Bill increases the edition sizes these pricing practices are going to continue. So as for me, I'm planning on holding on to my Panama for at least another year unless someone wants to trade a Tybee for it! LOL!

youngone

Please let me make it clear that I have no issue with the selling price of that Panama Canal Set. My problem is with the method that was used to get it there.

I have no problem with a HL piece going up in price and value as it becomes more scarce because of retail sales, popularity, etc. In that case $197, $300, $500 is fine with me. However, in this particular case an unusually large number of these pieces were somehow aquired by one source thus helping to contribute to an "artificially induced" unavailability of the item. Others seem to have also "accumulated extras" of this piece to a lesser degree and for other reasons, but nevertheless contributed to this "premature" shortage. With this environment "created", this seller can/could/did command virtually any sale price. This is the same market environment that happens in sporting events which we call "ticket scalping". The biggest difference is that the "ticket scalper" can only hold out until game time, then the prices tumble.

Additionally, I feel that in this case, the seller misrepresented the item by stating that since HL's was going to start the PHAROS series and selling them internationally, that the "very limited" 4000 Panama Pieces would "now" have to be shared with this new worldwide market and therefore they would become impossible to get. This "emotional appeal" was included in the item description.

These are just SOME of the aspects of this particular transaction that I found objectionable......IMHO

Well folks someone has already listed an "Oak Island" and a "Round Island," then and now for sale on Ebay.

15 days from first ship to first bid!