We have been hashing over several ideas on what we as existing collectors would like to see and what would bring in new collectors. What will bring in new collectors is like a pig in a poke. Will it be thumbnails, will it be less expensive lighthouses, will it be --------------, etc? Right now, because the future is bleak and we know not what is going to happen, I think it's more important to keep the existing collector base that HLs already has and try to add to that base. If HLs does not "excite us" with something new and exciting, this collector base is eventually going to decrease even more and they won't have to worry about being around to entice new collectors. It appears to be the same old story year in and year out, with nothing exciting like a screwpile Thomas Point, a skeletal Sanibel Island or an unplanned variation. Right now HLs is toooo perfect and the fun is gone from the hunt.

The above being said, and you realize this is my opinion, I think it is time for an exciting issue that is straight out of the past. Something that you have got to have and you can't wait around for the price to be cut in half because a dealer can't get it off their shelves. An exciting piece that the dealers will not be able to keep on their shelves. It even would help to have one or two of these exciting pieces come out during each introduction period. Now that I've laid the groundwork on what I think, I am now going to give you a few thoughts on what there exciting pieces could be.

1. A lighthouse that is no longer existing with an old style ball that is predrilled to accept a lightning rod. The piece should be done in the old style of the original 17. Make it look like it is one of the original 17 with the rough finishes that they exhibited without all the fancy detail and perfect paint jobs that we now have. Make it a low enough edition size to clear a profit but small enough to make it hard to get. HLs could include the flexible rod to install or not install (collector's choice like the flag on the ELL).

2. While I know that HLs does not purposely put out a variation, we could have a planned production such as a duel production of a piece with a run large enough for HLs to make a profit. Take X ammount (ie. 1000 pieces) and produce them with "blue" water and have X ammount (ie. 500 pieces) with "green" water. When a customer buys the "blue" water version that is serial number 58/1000, give them the option to buy serial number 58A/500 with a matching serial number to their "blue" water piece except for an "A" added after the second piece. The dealer would order the "green" water piece and have it shipped back to him after HLs adds the serial number and the A, for pickup by the customer. The dealer's paperwork would dictate what serial number HLs is to use to match the "blue" water piece he has just sold or the dealer can order ahead of time to match what they have in stock. This would also eliminate the dealer from having to stock a piece that the customer may not be interested in. If the customer does not want the "green" water piece, there will never be a XXXA/500 of that "blue water serial number. The 2 water colors would have to be a lighthouse where the blue and green water is present (ie. Florida Keys, Gulf Coast, Hawaii) so everyone would be happy.

3. HLs could produce a very small edition size of a limited edition lighthouse similiar to the ELL or WP edition size of 500 or large enough to cover initial autoship requirements. Sell the remaining quantity, if any remain, on a first come first served basis to their pre-established regular dealers. This would get collectors in the hunt and off the Ebay trail for a reduced price.

These ideas could be repeated every year and not neccessarily in the same part of the year's introduction periods (ie. the green water idea during the first introduction period and the old style and 500 piece edition during the second introduction period). hese are 3 of my ideas to put the excitment back in the hunt. I have a few other ideas but this is enough for now. ANY THOUGHTS ON THESE IDEAS?

Hey out there !!!!!! Over 400 visitors including close to 40 regular members and not one thought on my post. Veeerrry dosappointing.

Rich,

Your post appeared only about 22 hours ago. Please give us a chance.

bobo

Gee willikers, Rich! (When is the last time you heard that expression?) Some of us have to work for a living and need some extra time to ponder what you are saying. No need to shout, "Attention on Deck" with us fellow CF members. Replies will come in time. An educated consumer makes for the best customers.

Bob

I would not buy anything that replicates the first batch of HL replicas. There are other companys whose product do this very well at cheaper prices. I would like to continue to get what I pay for and not keep the high prices for inferior products. Nostalgia is nice but not at HL prices.

Well, it took me almost an hour to compose my thoughts(probably only 15 minutes if I were under 50) and then to not even have a two or three word response like "you're crazy old man". Probably not worth the time of discussion because HLs won't go along with it but it was worth a shot. Sorry guys. Parade Rest and dismissed! Turn to ship's work.

Buddha - My true favorite lights are still the original 17 and up to about the Southern Belles. I like the rough finishes and rough looks. This is the way I have always figured lighthouses to look and the ones that I've worked on resemble the early HL issues more then the bright color picture perfect issues of today. To each his own on what pleases you is exactly what makes us individuals.

Rich,
Don't give up the ship, man. Like you, it takes us awhile to gather our thoughts sometimes!
One thing you said struck me, that thing about "new and exciting". Doesn't Cedar Point and South Haven, (and even Sankaty Head), fall into that category? According to my conversations with Tony, Cedar Point is HL's best seller this year. I know I've done well with it, and South Haven, too.

Rich
I totally agree with you. A limited edition of one of the first 17 with some variations sprinkled thru the editions. I would call it a collector’s commemorative and throw in some of the variations that collectors have sought for years. I would lean to a standard production of 1500. But I would like to put a different twist to Rich’s suggestion. I would pick 300 randomly out of the 1500and put on the green water, gray felt and throw on a lightning rod. I am sure with the technology we have today a safe flexible lightning rod could be made. The 300 special variation pieces would be scattered out thru the total production of the 1500. This would create the hunt for collectors. They could not go by numbers but would have to call of visit dealers to find the special Collectors edition.

Rich, I seen your post, but didn't want to be the first to respond. I'm not sure anyone reads my post anyway.

IMO. What you propose sounds too specific to only a select small bunch of collectors. Kind of like me saying the way to spark current collectors is to produce a few NJ lighthouses every year becouse that's what most want. I don't think so.

Most collects I know who collect the first 17 don't display them, they just like to say or know they have them.

The way the current models are being made is the best thing HL does. If it ain't broke, don't need to fix it.

If HL was to make the lump of clay look again, I think it should be a special order thing through the Collector Society. In addition to the current two CS pieces.

"These views are not the opinion of HL or anyone else on this board." (but I know many agree with me)

I've said it before and I'll say it again there is no way I would ever own any of the original 17, due to their total.... I'll stop there so as not to offend those who somehow find them attractive. In fact I once stated in these very forums that if I was given or won an original Hatteras or Coquille, I would give it or throw it away. So no HL releasing a throw back piece would not interest me in the least.

Loon - Never stop posting because you think that no one reads your posts. I read every new post except for the ones on the Forum for postcard exchages.

Now to address my thoughts on some of the exchanges:

Roland - I'm really not a fan of gimmick pieces like Cedar Point, Sankaty on the Move, Cape Hatteras on the Move, Saint Augustine being Renovated, etc. I own them only because of autoship. South Haven is OK because it is done very tastefully the same as Presque Isle, PA was done. I'm more of a Cape Florida LE type. Show it to me the way it is without perfect paint and little animals all over the sculpture like Spencer Collins replicas were. That is why when I compared HLs Ponce Inlet to Spencer Collins Ponce Inlet(1st piece that I bought in 93-94)I decided on HLs. I worked on that lighthouse when I was stationed at New Smyrna Beach and it WAS NOT as Spencer Collins depicted it in her bright and cheery way. It was closer to the way HLs depicted it being dull and desolate.

Daniel - I like your idea about a special commemorative piece but that would only satisfy us older down and dirty original collectors one time. It still would not excite me each announcement period waiting to see what is going to catch my fancy this time. The last time a piece REALLY excited me was the Pharos Collection. It was the way I liked lighthouses to look and the HUNT was there! There is no hunt anymore, there are no variations anymore(we have too much quality control) and finally we have no more early retirements because of production problems or sellouts where the collector has had to run like heck to try and find this piece. As I continue to say, the excitement is gone because there is no more hunt.

Loon - I can see where you are coming from and you probably represent half or more of the collectors that read these Forums. However, there is the remaining half or less then half of the collectors that probably feel a lot like I do or partially like I do. I disagree on your point "if it ain't broke, don't need to fix it". It is broke and we do need to fix it. The economy sucks, the people are not buying collectibles because they need to buy food, morgages, clothes, fuel, etc. so what better time to try an experiment then now? You can't loose anything if you don't have it. I'm not saying do away with the current HLs way of doing business, I'm saying try something different by going back to the original roots that made HLs a success. I'm saying give it a shot because all you have to loose is early retirement because of non sales. We've had plenty of those with the current production pieces so what is one more of a special reproduction of an early production piece. Some of the issues of 1500 pieces will probably not retire so as Dr. Phil so bluntly puts it "How's this working for you"? Finally I'm not asking to have the entire line changed. I'm only asking for one or two pieces a year to be done to see if the "excitement" of the hunt is there or should I just sit down in my rocking chair and watch television.

Let's look at a few of these ideas . . .

First, the created, intentional variation. It isn't a variation if it is intentional. When it comes out that HL intentionally created different versions more collectors (and dealers) will be upset than will be happy.

To allow for a separate green water production of 500 pieces, you would have to spread the entire cost of those 500 pieces across the 1000 normal pieces to be made so that there is no potential additional cost to HL if the 500 are not sold. I, for one, would not buy the second piece and probably would not buy the first piece because of the inflated price to cover the 475 pieces that will have to be destroyed. So, People will have to pay $100 to get the $65 piece so that all potential costs can be covered.

25 people will be happy to get green water in addition to blue water. Many will just not buy the inflated price blue water version because they are really peeved at HL. Some will stop buying HL because of a non-variation variation. Some dealers will feel set up and be unable to unload the blue version until they violate their dealer agreement and deep discount. They will stop selling HL. Was it worth it to make 25 collectors happy?

The early variations were just that - true variations. They were created thru a lack of quality control as we know it today. Each painter had great latitude in choosing colors or how to paint things. That is no longer the case - each piece is painted to the same standard so that there should be no difference between the first and last piece. This allows every purchaser to enjoy the same quality piece no matter where they purchased it.

There has been an honest-to-goodness variation this year. Bishop & Clerk's was sculpted with a misspelled name and the goof was not caught. Honest mistake that will be fixed is the second half of the run is produced. Has it helped to sell any more pieces? Doubt it.

Pieces like Cedar Point and South Haven really aren't gimmick pieces. The roller coaster really is behind the light at Cedar Point, even though a little further than represented. Trust me, waves do crash over the top at South Haven. Perhaps a little over produced, but it is a representation of the light as it exists in winter time. Cape Hatteras really did slide down the way. I would prefer to not keep producing the same light in many variations, but they have all been factual (St. Augustine and others).

HL has evolved over the years, as has their supply chain. Where the early pieces may have been charming in their lack of detail and accuracy, HL has worked to make the pieces more accurate and intricate. At first they had to create large pieces to get the fine detail; as things have evolved, sculptors have evolved to being able to create the wonderful detail in a smaller piece and the manufacturing process has been able to create a finished product with this detail. Should you put a 'primitive' piece on the dealers shelf next to a current, highly detailed piece the vast majority of people will go for the detailed piece at the same price. (If I offered you a brand new Vega or a brand new, loaded Caddy at the same price how many would choose the Vega?) Hey, at one point the Model T was state of the art in automobiles. Most would rather not give up all the details and extras in their currect car to dive a Model T. Might like one for nostalgia, but then you go look for one on the secondary market, not new at a Ford dealer.

Lower production runs really would be nice, but people aren't even buying up the smaller run pieces. Until things change to a lot of people will buy collectibles and non-necessary things sparingly. HL and so many others must plan to survive and tricks and gimmicks will not help them to do that. IMHO.

I agree with Rich on "the hunt"-it was an adrenalin high to find an early retired piece or a unique HL. The hunt isn't gone but it has become more limited with the reduced number of dealers and those going out of business and listing on ebay. As far as the "gimmick pieces" I see that as Harbour Lights evolving and showing
what you can do if you try to be the best. Remember Middle Bay and the cow?
I like the gardens, trikes and shovels. They show there's a personalization and pride in what may have been taking place at these lightstation(homes).
It's what I see when I visit these lightstation-homes-today. The Original 17 were an experiment. Those that followed were an evolution..but there was and is something special about those 17. I say "Go for it". The Gurnet would look great as 17 B.

I think we are getting hung up on terms and what are allowable. It is not a sin to make a green water type and there is nothing in the collectors rule book saying that some of the lights cannot be different than the others. I am positive that there is no proof that dealers would not like a special rare lighthouse version and definitely no proof that the majority of the collectors wouldn't like it. We don’t have to call it a forced variation. We can call it a collector’s edition with a special change in some of them to make it fun to collect. I have been pushing for a green water /blue water editions for over eight years. Why can’t hl listen and give it a shot. If HL would make a fantasy light like barking rocks that few collectors liked why can’t they humor some of us collectors?


I don’t see why changing a water color would run the coast up very much. This would be subtle production changes but would be a noticeable change in the lighthouse itself. I bet a deal could be work out with the manufacturer with a minimal cost increase. All you are doing is changing the color not reconstructing the model.

I suggested a deliberate green water variation a long time ago...it went over about as well as a fart in church...

I'm with you Daniel. If only 25 collectors are going to buy the green water piece, then let's only make 25 and make the rest of the run blue water. It can't cost HLs more then a few cents difference to paint green water over blue. They don't even have to be serialized different. Serialize them at the end of the run. Collectors buying the blue water version can order them straight from HLs, if they want it, using a special order form from their dealer. Collectors wanting only the green water version can order just the green water version also from HLs. The green water pieces can be sent straight to the dealers that provided the form so the dealers are kept in the loop. The dealers will not have to stock the green water version and will still make their profit. HLs will know exactly how many to paint with green water at the end of the production run so they will not have to through 475 away. And nowhere did I ever refer to it as a variation. HLs did THIS SAME EXACT THING on the Mackinaw and Taney with good success.

The thought towards a "old time original 17" style lighthouse would also be interesting to see. Sure, some would not buy it but there are also plenty of lighthouses of the new style that aren't being bought. What's the difference between an old style and a new style not being bought?

A very limited production run of 500 can also add excitment to the hunt. The profit is there or we wouldn't have the Exclusives. Make some of the fence sitting procrastinators get off the fence and make a decision to buy now or pay a higher price later off the secondary market.

What is going to happen, and it's already started, is more and more of the steadfast older collectors are going to stop buying because the excitment is no longer there without the hunt, they have run out of room for another so-so piece or they just can't justify spending the money on a duplicate of a duplicate such as St. Augustine, Cape Hatteras, Portland Head, etc. The younger collectors with families cannot afford to buy all of the lighthouse and HLs will go the way of all the other lighthouse manufacturers. You must keep your older established base while adding to this base with new collectors.

I'm preaching on a soapbox and as Daniel so perfectly put it "Why can’t hl listen and give it a shot. If HL would make a fantasy light like barking rocks that few collectors liked why can’t they humor some of us collectors"?

If you want two versions of the same lighthouse, take up a collection and go to HL to commission the run. If you are correct and it does well, you will make money. If not, HL is not out money . . .

If you want just 25 of them, ask Tony to sell you the last 25 of a production run, but painted with green water. Pay for them up front so they know they will be taken off their hands and won't have to find a buyer for the modified product after the fact. Don't think they would go for that, but you would at least be "putting your money where your mouth is". However, that was not the proposal made. Rich's proposal was 500 of a special green water version, numbered to match the corresponding blue water model. However, you would get the green only if you wanted it after the fact, after HL had to pay to have them produced. Thus, for the 25 people that want both a blue and a green you will have to sacrifice 475 green. Not a very business like concept.

You would be better off asking that an entire run of a model have green water.

We have proven that edition sizes of 500 won't even sell out. Case in point - Wisconsin Point.

You have apparently forgotten that Tony has publicly stated, on more than one occassion, that there will not be any more remakes of lights. The products that were remakes happened before Lighthouse Marketing bought the company. I don't think anyone will argue that we don't need another version of St Augustine or Cape Hatteras.

If you make products that are dumbed down enough to look like one of the original 17 those young collectors you speak about will not purchase them after they compare that product to a detailed model as curently produced. And, they may decide that HL has no idea of what they want to make and will go elsewhere. I like the original, not-so-detailed pieces for what they represent: the early years, the start, the beginning. However, I have no desire to return to those days after seeing what the company is capable of producing today.

At this point, you have one person agreeing with you that they would like a green water variation and one that would accept a primitive version. Now all you have to do is find 497 other people to buy one of each along with Rich and Daniel.

Dave - Your getting to be a little sarcastic at this point. I am trying to bring up new concepts that HLs can look at and maybe accept one of them. To your point of the WP not selling out, please don't get me going on that because you know how I feel we should have gone.

Rich, not sarcastic at all. To the point with reality and logic. Sorry that it conflicts with your thinking, but the ideas you are proposing just would not be practical in the business world.

Dave - Maybe that is true but to sit back and not do anything is not in my nature. I can in no way make HLs do something that is not practical, but, sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees. I'm throwing ideas on to the wall and maybe one of them will stick. My whole intent is to see if others will come up with their own ideas and post them or give their opinions on some of the ideas that have already been posted.

I'm all for getting an idea and the blood flowing but somehow I'm also wondering if these 'retorts" are why we don't have as many postings as we'd like. I can't see giving something away to get new customers without cheapening the product to cover costs. Some of us have a number of these thumbnails and have traveled far to get them. Remember the Society with the ornament included in the overall price? Could it be that we as collectors have made Harbour Lights a prisoner to our demands? Limited additions, Glows, LLOM, Anchor Bay, Christmas Ornaments,etc.,etc.,.I started collecting LE Lighthouses.Glows marketed before a limited edition (never before a LE we're told. Anchor Bay with crew without crew, without glass cases, new sytle ornaments. A business cannot survive by trying to make everyone happy. Go back to what you do best. Go back to what works. The biggest gripe from dealers I've spoken to is too much that doesn't sell and costly inventory . When asked what I collected I said lighthouses. I stopped Anchor Bay when the glass cases were not included. This I see as a perfect example of cutting cost at the expense of the product. For those of you that don't display their GLASSLESS Anchor Bay I commend you. Try dusting without causing damage. I also stopped collecting the ornaments.

Memo to Harbour Lights: DO WHAT BROUGHT US AS COLLECTORS TO CONTINUE SUPPORTING YOU FOR ALL THESE YEARS-MAKE LIGHTHOUSES.

Well said and very astute wickywacky.

I've had my own business (unrelated to lighthousing) since 1986. My clients don't tell me how to run it. If they don't like what I do or how I do it, they go elsewhere. I, in turn, make myself unavailable to them if they're not satisfied with what I do and the methods I use to do it. Even being in business for myself, it would be not only presumptuous, but arrogant of me to tell anyone else how to operate their business.

These "discussions" are certainly causing me to refrain from not only posting, but from participating at all. I log on to get away from the negativity that surrounds everything of late. I log off because that negativity is permeating this forum as well and that saddens me deeply.

Big difference between discussions and browbeating.

Sandy

Sandy, I understand. But that's the beauty of our freedom in this country. We can log off or we can log on again, and we can express our thoughts in forums such as this and yes, sometimes the negativity in our lives and in our society sometimes comes through when we don't even notice it. Please don't just log off, express your feelings as you have done now, and keep doing it because when we stop pointing out the negativity then negativity wins. Thanks for stepping up.

Please don't let these discussions bother you, Sandy. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and you can always expect to read both positive and negative statements. Whether a person is totally negative or just playing the "devil's advocate", at least it is causing people to participate. Without participation, there would be no CF.

Well said Bob! This is the reason that I made this post. To get members to participate and tell their side. This topic was not started to get people upset. This topic was started to get people to post with their ideas. This topic was started so that these ideas could be looked at by Tony when he reads the Forums. This topic has already produced an idea in Tony's mind that may or may not come to be. I'm sorry if this post has caused some people to get upset and I appologize to any that it has upset. I also appologize to Dave for anything that I said to offend him. With that being said, I want all to understand that I care very deeply for the Forums and Harbour Lights and if I feel one of my posts helps either or both to survive the storm, then it is worth the post.

I think what Rich and Daniel are doing is what HL has asked from their collector base. Help find ways to improve the HL collecting market. They are the one's stepping up.

Their focus has been on the current collectors. My focus would be on getting the work out to new collectors. The current product is excellent. More people just need to know about it. You can't expect to survive on the occasional customer wandering into a gift shop.

Bottom line here is when more folk have more money, HL will be selling up a storm. Rich and Daniel are just trying to find ways to keep the product alive till then.

As the old adage goes, the squeeky wheel is the one that gets the grease. On a forum such as this, sometimes you have to take a page from the talk radio segment. That is, when things are slow, you say something outrageous or controversial and sure enough, people will respond. Now I don't know about Rich and Daniel being outrageous, but as you can tell by the postings, it certainly has been controversial. And lo and behold, just like talk radio, the lines are lighting up all over the place! And suddenly we have an exchange of ideas.
Whether we agree or disagree with a point of view isn't the issue. The issue is, we're sharing ideas, and that is never, ever a bad thing.

I agree, Roland. Well said.

The topic of this thread is a good one. The controversial statements are very constructive and lead to more constructive thoughts.

However, the outrageous statements do nothing to promote constructive participation.

Judy

This is how I have been feeling for most of 2008 and one of the reason why I don't post much.

And for the record, I consider myself a relatively young guy who collects HLs. So what is HLs going to do to keep me as a customer during these economic hard times with new 2009 release just around the door?

Ideas are GOOD, but don't beat each other to death over semantics about if it is viable of not. Sometimes, when I see the same people posting over and over again, and what they say (or criticize other people), I wonder how many of you out there on the forums are directly (or indirectly) involved somehow with Lighthouse Marketing or HLs.

Please don't mis-understand me, I appreciate the information from the forums, and in no way am I "slamming" anyone, but we all need to step back and take a deep breath!

I like to use the statement "Think outside the box". I know many don't like that statement. It's true meaning is used incorrectly.

We should think outside the box, but react within it. Once we think outside the box, we define the box or expand it first, then react.

How this ties into this discussing? Rich, Daniel, and everyone else who has suggestions are defining what is realisticly possible, in hopes to give HL something to react on.

Sorry it this one sounds a little excentric.

Whatever the reason members are not posting is there own personal reasons. What bothers me is the fact have had 561 members/visitors over the last 12 hour period and since 8:00 AM this morning only 3 topics were visited and approximately 10 responses to those 3 topics were made.

I have made the comment before that there are really only 10-15 regular posters. Sometimes it is very discouraging to visit the Forums that several years ago were hustling with activity. Bad times, money problems, new interests, added family responsibilities, etc. are probably the main reasons. HLs wants to add new customers, we want to add new members, HLs wants to keep their existing collector base, we want to keep our current members posting and through all of this HLs and the Forums are trying everything we can do to keep alive and survive.

There is not too much that can be done to keep the Forums alive and thriving when even our currents members do not want to post or don't have the time to post. There is something that can at least be attempted to help HLs survive and that is to think of new ways to attract new collectors and also keep the declining collector base from declining even more. If only one out of twenty ideas are accepted by HLs and helps them bring in new collecots and/or keep their current collectors, we have been successful.

Will everyone be happy with every idea? Will anyone be happy with any idea? Probably not! But if one person (Tony) is happy with only one idea we are way ahead of the game. Will there be disagreement among members, probably. But, we are all free to voice our opinions and ideas equally and we need to hear the ideas that you have. There will more then likely be members that disagree with your ideas, but, you still need to post those ideas instead of not posting at all. Tony is reading these forums and the idea that you have may be the one he is looking for, regardless of whether anyone else likes it or agrees with you.

This is why I posted my ideas. Some of you like one or two of them. Some of you don't like any of them. Some of you think the back and forth talk between posters is not good for the Forums. For those of you that were around several years ago, this is very minor bantering compared to what use to go on in The Fog Signal Building Forum. Maybe I should have made the initial topic in the Fog Signal Building but I felt this topic would be received better in the Latest Models Forum. Whatever your opinion and feeling on this topic, we have at least serveral posts in this topic to read each time we visit the forums. And we have been exceeding normal then usual visitors each 12 hour period. I just wish that our registered members making posts would exceed our normal posting.

Things have certainly slowed down here. I guess our collective thoughts on how to bring in new collectors have decided to take a Thanksgiving Holiday break. Once the stomachs are full, the minds can function again and new ideas will spring forth.

I wonder how many lighthouse lovers are out there that don't know how wonderful Harbour Lights are. When I first started being interested in lighthouses, I found out about HLs when a friend of mine brought me a Lighthouse Depot catalog. Upon further research, I discovered the intricate detail and fun to be had finding those seahorses.

How do we make sure that HLs are being marketed to the folks that travel around to see lighthouses every weekend? I know when I lived in Michigan and for example, would decide to see all the lighthouses from Detroit up along the "Thumb", I would run into several people who were doing the same thing the same day. I know my routine would be to search for the HLs of the lighthouses I had just seen. Since the dealers are now fewer and farther apart, it is important that those of us that know the excellence of the collection make sure we talk about it to other lighthouse fans such as those we meet on our travels. But we have to help them find a dealer to use. Is there anything else we should be doing, other than buying lighthouses. ( I do my part in that role, heh, heh, heh... ) At the same time, we should share the existence of the LighthouseKeepers website. Maybe that would help get more traffic to dealers and to the website. ( That also might post) Thoughts?

NOTE: our family celebrated an early Thanksgiving yesterday, which is why my tummy is full and I can have a new idea "spring forth," Rich...

From Docsweetie, now much farther away from lighthouses, but still buying HLs

I read more then I post because I am still learning.

I don't know as much about Harbour Lights as most of you do. I only started collecting in 2003, which is also the first time I had seen or heard of Harbour Lights. I do not have any of the original 17, and have not even seen them except in pictures. So I can not say if I would like to see more done that way or not.

I have only been a member of these forums for a couple of years and everything I have learned has been from these forums and reading books and articles about lighthouses. So I am still a youngster when it comes to knowledge about HL or about lighthouses.

I think doing the lighthouses that have been requested by collectors is a start. I have requested one lighthouse to been done since 2003 and I know everyone else here has requested certain lighthouses for years.

An other thought I had was, doing like they did with the Macinaws and the Taneys. A past and present version of the same lighthouse. Everyone scambled to get the very limited matching sets before they were all gone.

I still say the key to HL success is to get the word out. Most of folks in the US don't even know HL exists. You can't depend on someone stumbling on them in gifts shops that are becoming less and less.

You have a good point there Loon. Getting the word out is very important. Used to be there were Harbour Lights in many card shops, gift shops, etc. That is no longer the rule. Maybe Harbour Lights should consider taking out some ads in various magazines like Sunday's Parade, Ladies Home Journal, Sport's Illustrated and some of the collectible magazines. It might be a gamble for a month or two that will really pay off. Right now the only magazine I know that they advertise in is their Lighthouse magazine.

Another thought might be to have Harbour Lights appear on QVC, Shopping Network, etc. with their LLOMs and GLOW lines. Pitch them and also let people know that there is a limited edition line, along with a line of limited edition ships, that must be ordered through a HLs dealer.

Loon - You must have had some turkey along with Docsweetie and Cyndi.

Rich, No turkey yet, but I did pickup the bird yesterday at the local ShopRite. Deb and I will be up early on Thursday getting it stuffed and in the oven. Looks like we'll be having a similar gathering like what what was on last nights Boston Legal.

Back to getting the HL word out.

The QVC idea might work. I know you have to have a large quanity available for it to sell on QVC. So a few GLOW's or LLOM's would be the way to go. I found this out from Ed Seale who once was a sculpture for Hallmark. Deb and I used to go to Hallmark store signings and have dinner the night before with the artists. Ed was going out on his own and was looking for ways to advertise his product line. I asked Ed about QVC and that's how I found out you have to have a large quanity available first.

What's also good about the QVC idea is once you have there names and addresses, you can then advertise the LE line and CS directly to them.

The magazine appoach might work, but maybe just getting a mailing list would be a better way to go. Partner with several lighthouse org's or another collectable line. Trade mailing lists.

Actually once I have turkey, I'm going to be sleepie or days. So I'll get my ideas out now.

One note to my above post on Rich's QVC/Home Shopping idea.

I'm sure HL dealers won't like it, but it should only be a one time deal. Just to get a larger collector base. The names of those who buy should be then given regionally to HL dealers to promote there store/catalog.

Another possability would be to share the profits will all legit dealers. Nothing to those who dump on Ebay.

I think I'll shut up now, at least I'm not talking about politics.

QVC is very difficult to get onto. And, if they were able to QVC would do all the shipping. HL would never see the names of the buyers unless they came up with a reason for them to mail in a card to redeem for something. (Daniel's thumbnail idea since 99.99% of people would not mail in the registration card.)

Would be a wonderful way to gain some major exposure, but have to wonder what kind of quantity they would have to be willing to ship to QVC ahead of time. And, I think I had read someplace that QVC won't pay for anything until they get their bucks from their customers. Makes it extra difficult on the manufacturer. Would be very interesting to give Bill a chance to schmooz with that size of an audience.

I think Bill on QVC would be must see TV.

It would definately have to be a single LLOM or maybe a few LLOM's. They are the quickest to get manufactured.

Getting the customer list might be possible if it's in the deal with QVC.

You've got that right. Also, QVC sells at "special pricing" which is contrary to the direction Harbour Lights is going in. Sure would make us upset if QVC was able to sell at lower prices when dealers are not allowed to. You can't have it both ways.
I know that one of the things Tony talked about when HL dropped their reps earlier this year and started selling directly to the retailers was being able to free up some money so that more advertising could be done. I would venture a guess that by next year you may see a lot more HL exposure in places you may not have seen before. No concrete evidence here, just a hunch.

The ways things are marketed are changing and for those that have the foresight to change with the times will profit and those that don't change will be left behind.
I think QVC would cheapen HL but HL and its dealer needs to be up with the latest selling techniques. I feel that all dealers and HL need to be as Internet smart as possible and up with the times on Internet shopping. Maybe more HL dealers should make a web page or at least get on Amazon.


Here are some examples of being internet smart.
HL and dealers need to figure out how to make their website come up first or at least on the first page when the word lighthouse is googled.

Dealers need to know how to make their webpage come up first when the word Harbour Lights Is googled.

Roland, selling on QVC should only be a onetime deal. To get some national exposure to the product. This in the long run could help individual dealers. Plus I think all HL dealers should get a piece of the profits, similar to what the dealers get from HL selling the Founders Collection.

LLOM's would be good because of the lower price. You don't have to discount. Many things on QVC sell at full retail. I don't think selling on QVC cheapens the product.

I still prefer more mailings to a larger collecting base as the way to go. The QVC idea is a long shot, and as Dave said, it's not easy to get onto. They have alot of reguirements that make companys shy away from them.

I agree we need to get the old collectors interested again and we need new collectors. My question is how do we get new collectors interested? I talk about lighthouses all of the time. In the past I have even had my HLs delivered to my work and showed them off. Most folks around here have never seen a lighthouse and just don't seem interested. The very few places in the area who have sold HLs in the past no longer sale them. I would buy up what they had in hopes they would get more, but I guess I could not buy enough to be able to keep a local dealer.

As a small businessman, I'm not a fan of QVC, HSN, or for that matter, any of the large "box" retailers. It is because of these large mostly conglomerates, (and many of them are foreign owned), that the small family businesses are steadily dropping by the wayside, (it's not just happening to HL dealers, but to small family retailers in many fields). The demands that these retailers put on their suppliers is utterly stifling, but the supplier must meet the demands if they want their product in the retailers' stores, or "TV marketplace". Some of the tactics they use are;
A) the supplier must pay a large fee just to be able to sell to the retailer
B) the supplier has to pay for shelf space or display space. Of course, the more prime the location, or air time, the larger the fee.
C) the retailers set the price that they will pay for an item. If the supplier cannot meet their low price, then that item will not appear in the retailer's stores. Instead, in many cases, the box store will find someone who can manufacture a similar or "knock-off" item for the price they want, and in most cases, it's a lower quality product. Because it looks to the consumer to be similar, however, the product sells. When the consumer discovers that this product is of inferior quality, it also puts a stigma on the origal product which the box store didn't buy.
D) MSRP's (manufacturer's suggested retail price) mean nothing to the box retailer. Because the box retailer controls what the wholesale price is, he can and will sell it for far below what the small guy can even buy his product for.
E) Along with the price demands, if the supplier wants to sell his product in those big box stores, he'd better have someone on staff stocking that product in the store. That means the box retailer doesn't have to staff the store with as many of their own employees, saving the company on payroll dollars. If the supplier doesn't stock the shelves, then his product doesn't sell and all items he carries get removed from the box store chain.
F) The final result? Because many of these large retailers are foreign owned, guess where John and Mary Consumer's money is going? Small "Mom & Pops" are owned by members of the local community, for the most part. That means that they are paying their business taxes to the local community and the state, as well as the US Federal Government. They're local homeowners, paying real estate taxes to the local community. They spend their hard earned money at other local businesses, which in turn helps the local economy.
Do you know who owns the large box stores or supermarket in your community? If you have a problem, can you call or visit them and tell him/her about it? Do you really know where your hard earned money is going to when you spend it in these stores or "TV marketplaces"?
On the surface, all you see is the low price. Have you taken any effort to look deeper into why these prices may be lower and what effects on your community they have?
So no, Loon, I'm not a fan.

Wow!!! Roland, thanks for the lesson.

Please don't misunderstand me by thinking I think the future of selling HL's is on QVC. I'm all for the small businessman.

I don't think you know I'm a small business. One that competes for business against some really large construction companies plus the Home Depots and Lowes contractors.

Just trying to add to an idea that was suggested to get HL products some exposure. Please notice all my comments.

My idea is to increase mailings. On every mailing should be the names and addresses of the closest HL dealers. Plus some dealer websites as well. Make it easy for collectors to find HL's.

The future of HL depends on the sales at your shop, Cape Annies, Bronze Lady, the Magical Carousel Shoppe, etc.

A few random thoughts from an infrequent voice, and collector.

The essence of what I've read, I think, is that more HLs collectors are needed. Without them, HLs, and present collectors, face an uncertain future. Variations, QVC/HSN, remakes and special editions have all been mentioned.

Of the four, only QVC/HSN has the potential to exposed HLs to 'new' collectors. The other three would only be known to those of us already aware of HLs and, hopefully, collecting at least some identifiable sub-set of them.

Roland has listed many hurdles to the QVC/HSN path. I think we need to leave it to Tony C. to decide if that is a viable alternative for HLs, or even for the rest of his business.

So where does that leave the puzzle? Still looking to attract new collectors. The basic question, to my mind, is what is the likely HLs market? Nautical. Sea-faring. Coast Guard and Navy veterans and/or active duty. Something else?

If that is the market, the next question is, how does HLs market/advertise to them? Some of this may be (to some degree, less or more) fraught with the same hurdles that Roland listed for 'big box' outlets.

Nautical. Decor. Coastal. Beach. There is, or was, a magazine called Coastal Living. Ads in the magazine or a similar publication? HL use, and photo credit, in a beach house feature article?

Sea-faring. There are, or were, a few web sites for nautical/sea-faring antiques and replicas. Maybe a reciprocal web link arrangement?

Coast Guard and Navy personnel. They have reunions too. Ship and event things. How about a HLs, or HLs collectors, tie in to these events, in lieu of a HLs Collectors only event?

All of this is kinda half baked, but I can see potential in each of them to extend the HLs bug to a wider audience.

I'll leave it youse pros to finish the baking, or shut off the oven!

Rick

Nice to see you're still alive and kicking, Rick! It's been a long time since we heard from you!

Personally, I'm against the QVC/HSN idea. The main reason is it takes business away from established dealers who have been faithful to the line. I feel a consumer needs to physically go to a dealer and see in person what he or she is about to purchase. You can't do that on a television screen.

You are correct about advertising aimed at specific groups of consumers. If the collector base could be rebuilt so that you have more guaranteed sales for each new release, life would be a lot easier for Harbour Lights.

Many of the old faithful collectors have fallen by the wayside. That is a problem that HL (I believe) has been trying to address for quite some time. With the millions of people in this country, why should it be so hard to muster a group of a couple of thousand people to jump on the HL Bandwagon? The product is a good one. The base prices are not unreasonable. Innovations have been forth coming. We're not talking "pet rocks" or "mood rings" here. We're talking an excellent quality lighthouse replica that often were worth more than you paid for it way back when. How do you get those times back?

Bob

Bob,

It's not a question of quality and it's not even a question of if anything sold now could possibly be worth more in the future. The quality is obvious and the possibillity of the items gaining in value is small if not nonexistent.

I believe that the biggest roadblock in getting new collectors is simply the fact that the concept of jumping into something that has so much already out there is very daunting- especially in today's economic climate.

It's always hard to get people interested in collecting something- you have to trigger one of a number of desires in a person. It might be a love of some particualr thing- like the sea, boats or more specifically lighthouses.

It might be the possibillity of knowing that even if you tire of the item you are collecting you have the possibillity of divesting yourself of them at no loss- or even at some monetary gain.

If you add to the mix that there are literally hundreds of items already out there that are part of the "collection" you are considering collecting it pushes most people away from the concept of collecting a specific item.

The two hardest times to get people interested in collecting something is when it's a new item and when it's a mature line.

I'm a bit of a cynic but I believe that the Golden Age of Harbour Lights collecting has passed and nothing anybody does is going to change that- that's not to say that there would not be some ideas that have been floated that might have an effect on things. I just think it's extremely unlikely to return to the past again.

Sorry if some find this viewpoint discouraging.

Dennis

All we can do on the CF here is to come up with ideas, as requested. The folks at HL can either act on them fully or in some way, or just disregard. Nothing mentioned is that crazy, so who knows.

I'm sure whatever, if anything, they do will be the best for the collectors, dealers, and most importantly themselves.

As Bob said with the millions of people in the country, all we need to muster up is a couple thousand.

With the current collector base, adding just one thousand would we way more then just great.

They need to get the word out to lighthouse lovers, Navy and Coast Guard veterans and current servicemen, or just people that like nautical items.

Rick's idea for advertising in the Coastal Living mag sound like a good one.

I think mailing a HL catalog to specific interest groups would be the best way to get the word out.

Let's hope HL has a successful 2009 for starters !!!

OK, here's one for ya!
Not sure if any of you are wine drinkers, but when the movie "Sideways" was released last year, the story line had a lot to do with one certain type of varietal wine...pinot noir. Suddenly the entire country was drinking pinot noirs and many wineries ran out of pinot noir juice. All of a sudden, all kinds of wineries have been planting pinot noir grapes and introducing their own pinot noir wines.
Now, pinot noir was a grape which was showing some slight growth, but once that movie was released, sales literally exploded as new people were suddenly turned on to the wine. It remains the hottest selling growth grape wine varietal today.
Now, if Harbour Lights could somehow tie into a movie about a lighthouse keeper, or something of that ilk, it would guarantee a TON of new people being exposed to the Harbour Lights brand. (Of course, it would have to be one of those Hollywood blockbusters).
Other companies do this all the time. Do you remember everyone eating Reese's Pieces after E.T.?

I think sales of Harbour Lights have suffered over the years due to the economy, lesser-known LE lighthouses being released (the major, "famous" sculptures such as Hatteras, Split Rock and St. Augustine have all been done, and in some cases, "redone", devaluation and quality.

It's good to hear that the present owners are not in favor of re-doing previously released sculptures. Personally, when the Youngers started doing this, it totally turned me off. Why buy a "Society exclusive" piece when it turns up redone as an LE. I paid an annual fee just for the privilege of buying one. A prime example is "Point Fermin".

To me, the best route for HL to pursue is trying to sell the majority of each released sculpture locally. It is hard to believe that you cannot sell 1-5,000 pieces of a local lighthouse within 30 minutes of the real thing. I know this would upset the dealer network but really, why should a dealer in CT have to take a relatively unknown sculpture from the Midwest, only to sit on the shelves with the dealer responsible for 50% of the retail cost. Perhaps a retailer could opt to take one particular release, provided it is within the local area of the lighthouse. Priority and exclusivity of course would always be given to a local Harbour Lights retailer, if available. The flip side of this, a consideration to the local dealer, would be allowing the dealer to "pick and choose" what they accept for sale.

Advertising is expensive however a local lighthouse being released should be advertised locally.

There may not be too many "serious" collectors as in the past who buy pretty much everything they like and have space for, however there are probably thousands out there who would buy one or two of their favorite local lighthouses.

Just a thought.

Hi Rich and Bob...

I'm not sure, at this point, what Harbour Lights could do to draw some of us back. Cedar Point, the Winters fantasy piece, South/East/whatever Haven, and a couple of others caused me to slam the door on collecting, because they were [in my ever-so-humble opinion] gimmicky and way over-priced. $100 lighthouses are not compatible with my resources—fer sure. And, there just isn't any room left. There will be those extremely rare, occasional releases that I might get [I did relent to acquire Crown Point], but I'm nearly to the point of gluing the boxes to the basement ceiling just to store them. I have almost everything up through 2007 [except Hatteras #1 and Coquille, and the odd variations such as Split Rock, MI and Burrows Island, OR, etc.]: YOU know how much volume of space this devours. In fact, I can't imagine how you manage to display a significant amount of your collection! You know, I had almost hoped that Harbour Lights might die out after the Youngers sold it, because that would have put a nice terminus to the collection. I suppose that, in a sense, the new owners did me a favor [or should I say favour, to be consonant with the topic?]by putting out the "objectionable" [for ME, guys and gals, for ME] pieces and jacking up the prices. When the GLOW pieces are beginning to top out higher than the LE pieces, and when the lighted pieces are beginning to invade the LE pieces, it's all too much for me. Now, all I have to do is to figure out what to do with what I already have on hand.

I wouldn't have been surprised if you had deleted me from your listings about eleven months ago, but it appears that I still am registered.

Rock...great to see that you're still feisty and well!

At any rate, there's my two-cents worth [before the economic crash]. Wishing all of you happy holidays.

Danny

Nice to hear from you Danny...the only way HL is going to get me back is to dump the LLOM's, the GLOW's, the CG boats, and all the other extraneous open edition giftware and get back to making nice little limited edition lighthouses that are fun to collect and easy to display and clean...

Hey Bob. Alive and kicking, at least for now!

This thread reminds me of many similar ones that have been written over the past few years. The net is how to return to yesteryear when HLs generated lots of enthusiasm and what we all thought was a large 'sticky' market.

I'll recount my journey through HLs land. Maybe it will be insightful.

I was in the Navy. Learned to like seeing the light at New London Ledge. And began to learn a bit about lighthouses and their history. So, when I discovered HLs I bought a couple. Then the family gave me a couple more and all of a sudden I had a 'collection'.

I am also a PC person. Back to the VIC-20 days. Had early Prodigy and AOL accounts. So I looked for HLs info online. Even then it was there. I stumbled across the predecessor of these fora on AOL, run then, as now, by Mr. Chidester.

It was then that the thought occurred to me that I could 'have them all', because I was hooked so close to the beginning of HLs. I could track down the few early ones I was missing (I did) and just keep buying what was released each year. Again I did, for a few years anyway.

But there were flaws in the plan. Quite a few for me, and I suspect at least as many, although maybe different ones, for many other early collectors.

- After a while, and as HLs ramped up production and yearly releases, 'a while' became shorter and shorter, it was harder to 1) display them all and 2) store all of the boxes. I would up with more dollars, oops, HLs in the closet than I had out for me, and others, to see and enjoy.

- The lights that HLs released became more and more obscure. Not that they weren't well done, they were. But for the general population who might know of, and maybe has visited, St. Augustine or Portland Head, where is the thrill of a Toledo Harbor or a Charlotte-Genesee? These are great lights, but not so well known outside of their local landscape.

- The number of releases per year became onerous. I don't have the exact numbers or years, but I'm pretty sure that there were at least a couple of years when it was almost two lights a month (on average) when you counted Christmas, Collector Society and Event pieces. That's a chunk of change unless you are Gates or Buffet.

- Life happened. The job caused some household moves. Kids left the roost and created extended families. I got interested in the family genealogy and spend many Internet hours doing research. We lost our canine family members and in the process of finding new pups we found Lab Rescue and started giving them some of our time. And wound up with seven resident Labs who compete for what used to be HLs funds.

So, it became apparent to me that I needed to think about this 'have them all' again. It just wasn't going to happen. I decided that I'd stick to lights from two states. Lights that I had either seen, or had a reasonable shot at seeing. It was my best hope for staying a 'collector' and still managing to enjoy what I collected.

Notice that I haven't brought up the LLOM, GLOWs and Anchor Bay lines. I was ambivalent about them. I have a lightship, in the box. A couple of GLOWs from the time when they were first released and were looking for an identity. Maybe even a LLOM or two so I would have 'all' the versions of a light that HLs had issued. They're in a box too.

But I don't blame LLOM, GLOW or AB per se for the predicament that can't be solved. I think that the idea behind these lines, as well as the International line that we didn't rush to buy, was to expand HLs market and build it to something that was sustainable. If they were successful, that would allow them to continue to create the LEs that we all fell in love with.

Where I think that HLs miscalculated with these lines is in establishing (or not) the link to the Limited Editions. The 'trade-up' factor if you will. Especially with the GLOWs, there just wasn't enough differentiation between them and the LEs. Nor was there a lot of HL effort (that I recall) to encourage people to 'complete the Cape Hatteras set' with a secondary market LE. Remember that Retired @ Retail was a collector run endeavor for years before HLs took it over. Or said another way, if a new collector wasn't 'connected' it was unlikely that they even knew about R@R or a secondary market.

HLs also has a very fundamental challenge. One I believe played a part in many marketing decisons that the company made over the years. There are only so many lighthouses out there in the US to make replicas of. I think the number is somewhere near 700 according to the Shanklins who have photographed all of the extant lights in the States.

At 20 LE issues per year, that'a about 35 years of inventory. HLs began in 1991. So they are what? About half way down that path? And already the lights that attracted us to the collection are done. Yet some are adamant that there should not be any reissues. Okay. But what lights the HL collection flame in the next generation?

So, what does all of this ramble add up to? I don't know! But I will offer my opinion. I think that HLs might consider aggressively pursuing the LLOM, GLOW and AB lines. I think that if HLs has a future, it is in those lines and the mass market.

I find it interesting that on the one hand there is a school of thought that HLs should not reissue a LE light, yet on the other hand there is no clear concensus as to the best way to grow the collector base. If it was the HLs of St. Augustine, Cape Hatteras, Portland Head, Sandy Hook, etc, popular, frequently visited, well known lights all of them, that attracted us to HLs, why is it a surprise the LEs languish when all the shops associated with these popular lights can offer are replica LLOMs and GLOWs, or LEs of other lights? If a tourist takes home the LLOM of Alcatraz, why would they look for anything other than a LLOM at the next light they visit?

I think that HLs might consider cutting way back on LE issues. 20+ per year when there is a finite inventory, and deep market doldrums, is too many. I don't know the 'right' number, but one per calendar quarter might be a good place to start.

I think that I wouldn't mind reissues. I would mind them for the sake of a reissue, and if the new was only marginally different from the old. But consider Cape Hatteras, original and 'on the move'. That was a historically significant event for CH, and I wouldn't have had any problem with 'on the move' being an LE issue rather than an event piece.

Maybe there could be an entire new LE set, of the US lights in scale and relation to one another. Ponce and Hatteras would be the tall ones. The others would scale accordingly. Maybe. Not sure how it would play out. But it's an idea!

I think that HLs should acknowledge the reality that not many (any?) new collectors will 'have them all' and put more focus on sub-set collections. Gone But Not Forgotten comes to mind. Or the regional collections. Or screwpile lights. Anything that makes it easier for new collectors to 'see' a complete collection and not be overwhelmed by the shear number of available replica LEs that have already been done.

Encourage and acknowledge 'your local lights'. Maybe they can do this through packaging, marketing, something. But it would help to ease folks into collecting by taking the emphasis off of 'have them all'.

New blood! That's what its going to take. The how is up in the air. But if nothing changes, LEs will end, within many of our lifetimes, simply because all of the US lights have been done. That might be good for our estates, but it will put a real crimp in our collecting!

Last but not least, these are my opinions, offered for the readers consideration and considered comment. No offense meant in any way to other folks and their opinions, expressed or to be expressed.

Rick

Rick,
I have to say that this is perhaps the most insightful and well thought out comment any of us have had for a very long time. You have tried to catch the perspective of not only the "hard-core" collector, as many in this forum are, but also the "casual" collector, as well.
As important as the "hard-core" collector has been to the success of HL, (and remains to be), the focus going forward has to be on the "casual" collector without "snubbing" the hard-cores who have been with HL for all these years. That is how this company will survive, and it's for many of the reasons you detailed above.
Look at it this way. You are a new collector who wants to collect "everything". (LE's only for the sake of this point). This is 2008. You've just discovered HL's. Even if you have unlimited funds, and you want to collect all of what HL has and will produce, you've missed how many years and how many releases? If I am going to be a "hard-core" collector, it is going to be hard to look at all of the past releases and know that it will be just about impossible to get all of those past lights. And what is a collector if he can't collect EVERYTHING?
Perhaps because I haven't been a retailer of HL's since the beginning, I can look at this from a total business perspective, from the "head", if you will, and not the "heart". I really like the idea of "sub-collections", maybe a 6-12 lighthouse mini-series with one released every 6 months. That would capture interest from both the hard-core and new collectors, provided it is marketed correctly. It would bring back, I think, the "gotta have it" mentality in attempting to collect the entire limited series.
Perhaps start a limited series once a year, so that collectors who may not be interested in last year's series may get hooked on the next year's because it interests them. Retail should probably be in the $40.00-$50.00 range, with a size that is smaller than the LE's but larger than the LLOM's. Don't make them light-up for the most part, but if you do, only perhaps a certain series which lights up due to the fact that the light may be a green or red, or perhaps you are celebrating a series of "anniversary" lights, or the fact that each light still has a Fresnel, etc. It would be more affordable, and the smaller size would make it easier to display the entire series.
I know that due to the economy this year, we have found that the more expensive lights especially aren't performing as well so far this Christmas as they did last year. A "bump in the road"? Probably. But although this industry can never be "recession-proof", HL has tried to help with the LLOM's. (there are other reasons LLOM's make sense, but I'll wander from my point if I start on that!). A less expensive "collectors' series" as stated above may help.

Not lighthouses, but college landmarks.

I pitched this to Bill and Kim about 8 years ago. Got the go-ahead and made some contacts.

Almost every large campus has some 'signature' building - a carillon tower, the "Golden Dome" of Notre Dame, etc

A fine quality replica (NOT a limited edition, but perhaps not made in huge numbers each year) should draw sales from Alumni, undergrads, parents and fans of college sports teams.

I talked with Michigan State, Univ. of Michigan, Harvard and Stanford Universities about this project.

Mostly they couldn't envision what it would be like, (HL provided me with several Bremerhaven pieces so I could send a sample.) The schools would be happy to 'license' it for 10% of gross.

What it would take would be a paint sample and a local rep who could show it to the college gift shops and bookstores and run ads in the Alumni magazines. (Here the problem from Harbour Lights' standpoint is that ALL of the development costs are done up-front without any pre-orders in hand.)

Of course, I thought that "History Buildings" (like Old North Church) would go over well, too. It is not a sellout with only 1,500 available.

I also talked to some non-profit Washington DC organizations like the White House Historical Society, Mount Vernon Ladies (who run it) about replicas as fundraisers.

The problem with non-profits like those last two is that they don't understand how profit-making businesses work -- Really!

But a really quality replica of the U.S. Capitol Building (Maybe the size of Navesink) should be bought up by the gross by Senators and Representatives to present as 'thank you' gifts for their supporters. I think Congress understands how business works.

Roland/Rick - A new smaller size LE starting from scratch, larger then the LLOM and smaller then the LE and selling in the $40--$50 range is exactly what Daniel brought up over a week ago in his third idea post. He brought it up and has had only 3 comments. It's very disappointing that most members do not take the time to comment pro or con so we would know exactly how they feel.

My personal opinion is I would like HLs to completely terminate the current LE line. I think this would increase the value of all current LEs. To replace the LE line would be the new smaller LEs that a new collector could start from scratch collecting. They wouldn't feel overwhelmed, and with the smaller size and lower price, they could collect from the beginning.

I consider myself a new collector and don't feel overwhelmed trying to catch up with the older models. I collect about as many older pieces as I collect the new ones each year. Its the thrill of the hunt for me. I've purchased from many CF members. A few local HL dealers and a few internet dealers, plus some on Ebay.

My views are the current product is excellent, just need more people to know about it.

Another perspective...

As some of you know, I work at the Sea Girt Lighthouse as a docent, especially during the NJ Challenge every year. That weekend, we get over 2000 people coming through the lighthouse, and I think it's a pretty good cross-section of America.

We have several Scassis pieces in our gift shop. One is maybe Spyglass size, and sells for $4. One is a bit more like a large LLOM (maybe the size of the proposed "mini-LE"), and sells for $15.

There are two open-edition Harbour Lights of Sea Girt: the $21 LLOM, and the $70 GLOW. This year, I proposed stocking the HL pieces in the gift shop to our merchandise chair. After discussion, we decided that neither would be a logical investment for us to stock in the gift shop.

The LLOM is smaller than the large Scassis replica, yet if we were to sell it at retail, is $7 more expensive. If you were a casual lighthouse visitor, looking to purchase a memory of your visit to Sea Girt, would you go for the $21 detailed, 3x3 piece, or the $15, still quite detailed, 5x5 sculpture? Or for the child who will likely tire of the sculpture, why not just get the $4 miniature and minimize the loss?

We couldn't even think of stocking the GLOWs. This piece, too, is about the size of the large Scassis piece. Which would you choose if you just wanted a little object d'art?

This is an issue in lighthouse gift shops across the country, I'm sure. We're all run the same, non-profits with small budgets. And the simple thing is, other lines offer a better value product for the consumer, which means more money for the lighthouse.

Now, is this a knock against Harbour Lights? Certainly not. I'd rather pay the extra for the HL piece. But I know the difference. Many people just want a lighthouse sculpture. And other lines, because they sacrifice quality, offer more to those people.

And the lucrative lighthouse gift shop market is thus reduced for Harbour Lights.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my perspective from my experience.

Thank you Roland. This is a tough nut to crack, that's for sure. There are many parties with stakes to lobby for.

Daniel, my apologies if it appeared that I was swiping one of your ideas, (and Rich, thank you for pointing it out) a completely new LE line. I hadn't (still haven't) read your post. My comments were actually a 'stream of consciousness' thing as I was typing that tome I posted. I was slipping back in time to the first lighthouse replica that I bought. It was Cheryl Spencer-Collins' Cape May if I remember right. Shortly afterwards I discovered HLs and, well you know that part of the story!

Cheryl's line was based on the scale relationship of the different lights. The tall lights were the tall lights, the short ones were short.

Rich, I don't post often, sorry. As I said above, this topic seems to come around every so often. It is hard for me to imagine that I'm adding anything new to the discussion.

This time though there was something about the thread that prompted me to post. Maybe it was the QVC/HSN thing. Or maybe it was the 'old collectors / new collectors' thing that I happened to have some thoughts on.

So I tried to add a bit of perspective from a 'collector' who has given some thought to what has changed over the years to cause me to decide that I made a mistake by trying to 'have them all'

Truth is, I was caught up in a couple of things. One was the thrill of the hunt. Can I find a St. Simon's before they're all gone? What about Portland Head? I've got ties to Maine, gotta have that one.

A second one was I thought I could have them all. And because I never had 'all' of anything before (except maybe the 1960 season of baseball cards!) I thought that would be cool. But I only looked backwards, to what I hadn't had before, and not forward, to what it would mean to have every HL LE and special edition.

Had I looked forward, I might have seen the space requirements, the financial commitment, the box storage struggles, etc. But all of those things kinda snuck up on me. And I suspect on many other early collectors.

Some of what I posted this time I've posted before, but probably in different words and context. The 'no reissues' topic in particular has sometimes gotten folks to take passionate stances, one way or the other. But, learning from the past when I didn't look forward, I took another look at things.

Something else I've said before is that HLs is a business. They need to make money to stay in business and make the LEs that we all collect. But, with my new lense on the problem, I realized that they couldn't just make LEs, and sustain the company over time. They'd put themselves out of business because there are only about 700 extant US lights to do.

I think that the Youngers realized that they couldn't sustain a business based solely on LE replicas of 700 lights. They knew, and I think we collectors learned over time, that the deeper into the pool of available lights the line went, the more obscure the lights became. And their appeal was to a smaller and smaller segment of the market.

So they tried what is termed in marketing-speak, 'line extensions'. They used the HLs name and tried to build other sources of revenue. GLOWs, LLOMs, Anchor Bay, SkyBound Ballons, International Lights, etc. I'm not sure of the success of each of them, but the Skybound Balloons and the International Lights were not successful. The LLOMs, probably. GLOWS, not sure, maybe break even along with Anchor Bay.

I can't say for sure, but looking back I don't think that HLs supported their diversification efforts very well, in terms of non-traditional advertising and distribution. Maybe they couldn't because of the contracts that they had in place with dealers. I know that they advertised heavily in Lighthouse Digest. And maybe a couple of the Collectibles magazines. But I don't recall any ads that would be considered 'mass market'. Or even regional market. Hence my idea to use Coastal Living and it's ilk.

Despite all of the hurdles, HLs might have made it, except for 'life'. We're here in 2008 discussing this, but the blossom was off the rose several years ago. The .com bust and economic slowdown brought lots of this to a head for many collectors. That period of time was the beginning of my reality check.

There was some recovery. There was a Reunion in '05 and event trips in several years. But I think that each was smaller than the last. And now we have a depression to deal with along with the housing meltdown and credit crunch.

I think it is going to take bold steps, and more than a little luck, for HLs to survive the current economic times. I think that they will have to shrink (in terms of number of releases per year for example) and they will have to be very creative in finding new outlets for the line. How many dealers have been lost? Lots. Nothing sells if no one knows it is for sale.

Rick

Rick - Forgive me if I insinuated that you stole Daniel's idea. I was merely pointing out that the idea had been surfaced before your post and how ironic it is for 2 members to come up with the same idea. It's also interesting to note that while you don't post often and wasn't aware of Daniel's post that you should come to the same conclusion. When Daniel posted his idea I thought it was quite interesting and if I was a new collector I would be jumping up and down with thoughts that I may have a chance to start anew. Please post more often as your insite has always amazed me with the way that you dissect your thoughts and post them in a way an old retired Coastie can throughly understand.

Those of us that have been collecting from the beginning (I have them all) are fast running out of room and would welcome 1-3 yearly issues of the current limited editions. That should also make someone that is trying to get them all very happy that they only need to budget for 1-3 new issues and can concentrate on finding and paying for the older ones. A new LE line would be perfect for HLs to produce the more popular lighthouses without interferring with the current LEs and also allow for them to make a profit while continuing a larger LE that is scaled down to 1-3 per year.

As a norvice collector (just over two years), I have had my eyes opened. When I purchased my first couple of lights, I was impressed and fasinated by the detail. Harbour Lights had produced a great product. So I got into collecting them with no research on my part. The first year I thought the only way to collect them was to find them at gift stores and lighthouse stores. It was exciting to find a LE at a store that was in the 200's. Second year I located a couple of other norvice collectors and a couple of local collectors of Maine lighthouses.

The past six months has been the eye opener. The only place that sells at retail are a few gift shops. You can find lighthouse gift shops that will discount considerably. E-Bay is wild. Some collectors are selling at gastly low prices. And now I know that my collection of Harbour Lights will never be like stamp or coin collecting. Every piece you buy, you buy out of love for lighthouses and never to get your money back. Will it change? I doubt it, unless Harbour Lights puts a lot more into marketing and developing the data base of collectors.

I hate to say this, but I believe the best way for Harbour Lights to survive for the long term is to develop an extensive data base, and than market direct and not through dealers. Their product is so limited and the numbers of serious collectors limited, that trying to support gift shops, while trying to make the Company viable for the long term, may just become next to impossible. It may be that Harbour Lights can survive better marketing LE's and GLOWS directly and selling to dealers the other lines, and developing a completely new line for their dealers based on regional collections only.

If Harbour Lights marketed direct to the serious collectors, I believe than, that they could afford to reduce their annual number of new lights and foster their position better for the long term.

Local lighthouses sold buy "local" dealers is the situation I was faced with. When I went into the store for my semi-monthly hunt better known as, "I ain't comin home empty-handed" , they're gone.

I was told that the dealer would only sell NC limited editions. Well what this caused me to do was find a dealer that sold "all" the HL LEs and I'm very happy.

I order all the LE's for that year as well as the Event Pieces and Christmas. What I'm saying is-My "local" dealer lost all my business.....because he could not supply my needs.

North Carolina has been a prime HL target with the Outerbanks and others. So....local dealers will not have inventory and will more than likely drop the line.

Direct marketing is a possibility but what I miss most is going to a dealer for a "hands-on experience". I have bought more lighthouses after visiting my dealer for a close examination than from catalogs and the HL site Page. HL knows who their "star" collectors are and could easily direct market through their Society Piece. Would they sell more lighthouses- maybe. Would they lose more dealers-surely.

As far as QVC is concerened, the Christmas Piece would be a great introduction to collectors. A prime example is my wife ordering Byers Choice Santa and Mrs. Santa. This for her was a one time purchase. Get the Christmas Piece on QVC, show the Quality, talk-up the line and who knows. Nothing ventured nothing gained. This I feel would be the least harmful to dealers and current collectors and just might increase the collector base and therefore help dealers in the future.