It's maddening enough that HL keeps grinding out GLOWs of LE's...but now they're doing GLOWs of Event pieces...enough is enough already!!! My signed Kilauea Event piece means so little to me now that I gave it away to a thrift shop this weekend. This "trend" will definitely make me think twice before buying another Event piece...

I fully understand Rock!

OK, let's see. I bought my wife a $3,000 diamond ring and then found out I could have bought a cubic zirconia imitation for $750 so I gave the real diamond to Goodwill.

I don't know about that John. Lots of people here have pointed out that we are dealing with perceived value. If enough people perceive that the cubic zirconia is as good looking as the diamond, and cost a lot less, than the diamond market may go down the tubes.
To quote JTA, "HL promotes its primary product as 'Limited Edition Collectible Lighthouse models'. These are manufactured rarities - that is, the product line is intended to be of limited availability and promoted in a way that people will want to own several (many) of these models. There are Collector Forums, a Collector's Society, Collector Clubs, Collector Events, etc. - all geared toward encouraging Collecting. Unlike, for example, Morgan Silver Dollars, HL models were designed from the start as Collectibles - they bear the characteristics of a thing manufactured for the express purpose of being both appealing in and of itself (aesthetics) and appealing for the liklihood they will retain or increase in value.
While HL doesn't openly talk about the secondary market, they and everyone else
acknowledges that the success of their product results to a large extent on there being a post-retail mechanism for the value part of the equation to play out. There is no
Scassis secondary market, there is not much of one for Lefton, or Spencer-Collins. The
existence of a viable secondary market - and the rarity/valuation component it addresses
is an absolutely essential ingredient to the success of Y&A. People might still buy them if there were not, but there would not be Collector Societies, Clubs, Events, etc. without it."
Perception is everything.
Jim
Johnson

I'm thinking there might be a LITTLE difference in price between the Kilauea and the diamond ring. Maybe a slightly less exaggerated example would work a little better.

I've already put my neck on the chopping block about GLOWs. I need not say anything more. Well put Jim! John next time send me the diamonds.

Very Well stated Jim...

I'm thinking it's not just a monetary thing. Aren't event pieces supposed to be a bit special? Up until the past couple years there was only one event piece made each year. During the year that the event piece is available everyone who wants one has the opportunity to purchase one. They are only limited by the numbers ordered during the allotted time. Did this piece sell so well that you can't find one? I don't thinks so. I'm with Rock on this one.

Next time someone wants to give away a signed event piece send it to us, The Houston Light Keepers. We'll even pay the shipping costs. We will use it as a raffle prize and put the money to work. The GLOWs have a purpose and to the discerning collector there will always be a difference between a GLOW and a LE. The collector will always go for the LE if he can. As a new collector I have only one GLOW and that is Thomas Point from the signature series. The other 20+ pieces are LE's that I have bought from a dealer or the Market Place. I will always go for the LE even if I have to wait and I am not a very patient person by nature. LE's Rule!

Chuck
PS Are you a discerning collector?

------------------
bigdragon

I agree with the notion that the Limited editions, along with lower quantities are what Harbour Lights and our collecting is all about. All one has to do is visit eBay where there are over three hundred Harbour Lights for sale every day to see what High numbers and glows may be doing to collecting and values.

I purchased my collection because I liked what I saw and continue to be impressed by what Harbour Lights produces. Even Portland Head and other hard to find early lights have come down in price to unbelievable levels.


If someone out there has an answer to this problem, it will most likely be Harbour Lights. They have listened to us before and brought down the number of LE's being made and now I hope they listen to what's being said about Event pieces.

Bert (MtnHkr)

Well, OK. The analogy wasn't a perfect one. But with DeBeers controlling the world-wide market for diamonds, their value is artificially high.

If you bought your Kilauea LE as an investment, intending to sell it, then perhaps the GLOW has limited your ability to maximize return on it when you sell it.


[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 03-11-2002).]

Well, let me stir the pot a little too. As lovely as the new GLOW releases are, I don't purchase them anymore. The last one I bought was West Quoddy and I was a little disappointed in its size.

I have two signed Kilaueas, and they're not the GLOW version. I bought one for my collection and the other to sell or trade for something else in the future.


I never expected to make a killing on my spare one but always figured it would be worth what I paid for it. If I had a choice of getting the original LE for $70 or the GLOW version for $45, I think I would definitely purchase the LE. Wouldn't you?

Now let us get back to the big picture. Harbour Lights is very generous when it comes to supporting lighthouse preservation. If we as collectors buy their products, they can keep supporting this worthwhile cause. If we try to put too many limitations on what they manufacture, there will be a lot less money being sent to support lighthouse preservation and restoration.

I'm sure the people who take care of the Kiluaea Light are as pleased as punch that they have a high quality sculpture to offer for sale. They will certainly sell plenty of them and we know these lights can always use extra money.

Another thing to be considered is the fact this isn't the first time we've discussed this subject. The Coquille River GLOW was met with mixed emotions by many but gladly received by more, including yours truly. People are pushing to have Pt. Vincente made as an LE. Didn't one guy pay ten thousand dollars for the one and only prototype? Imagine how he feels when he reads that. Wasn't there a little banter about making a GLOW of the first reunion piece, New Point Loma? I have one of those and I don't begrudge HL for producing a GLOW replica if it will help out the light.

I guess it comes down to the haves and the have nots. I have a complete collection except for the Coquille River LE. It would be easy for me to be greedy and say don't make any more GLOWS. Then I think about the enthusiatic new HL collectors who are very pleased to add a GLOW to there collection when they can't find the LE of a certain light. I did the same thing until I got all the LEs except for CR. Now I have a large amount of GLOWS that I don't display on a regular basis and they are probably worth about 60% of what I paid for them.

In conclusion I support whatever Harbour Lights does because they are good people and thewy have worked hard to make a difference in lighthouse awareness across the country. I further support them because they listen to their collectors and eventually try to do the right thing by them.

People complained about large edition sizes. HL reduce the edition size. People complained about the higher prices of new releases. HL is now offering LEs for less money than in past years. People complained about the high prices of Anchor Bay Boats with base & case. HL released new editions without base & case at half the price.

Well I'm a little long-winded on this post, so I'll end here. What do you think of what has been said in this thread?

Bob

I'd have to agree with you Bob. This is something I've thought about for quite some time. It goes back to the earlier discussion on the GLOW's. Let me ask this question: Why do you collect Harbour Lights? Is it a hobby, or is it to make money? I collect them because I enjoy it. I've always had a passion for lighthouses. I think we all have that passion, obviously.
I've never once bought a lighthouse and worried about whether the value would go up or down. I have no intentions of selling any of my lighthouses - ever. Now I'm not saying that I don't want them to appreciate in value, but it won't hurt my feeling if they don't. And I certainly couldn't care less if I see somebody selling one on ebay for a lower price. Actually, I get more upset when I see someone attempting to sell for a ridiculously high price.
As far as the GLOW's go - if you don't like them, don't buy them. Personally, I like SOME of them. Especially the new Cape Hatteras. I might even buy it. The detail on it is better than any of the previous versions (in my opinion). I don't feel that it will cause my LE Hatteras to depreciate. And if it does, shucks. I'll still enjoy it though.


Jared

I agree with Bob and Jared. This is a wonderful hobby that gives me great pleasure. I'm not doing this with any idea that they will be an investment. If it happens great, if not I will enjoy just looking at them every day. Portland Head and Cape Neddick were the lighthouses that drew me into the HL family. As much as I would love to have the LE's there was no way I could afford either one of them so I bought the GLOW's. If not for that ability to buy those two GLOW's, I might not have gotten into this wonderful collection. What a shame that would have been. Terry

Well here we go again. Back and forth and up and down and never the twain shall meet. To buy a Glow or not to buy a Glow. That's the $64,000.00 question. I would not buy a Glow for my regular collection because I feel that to have a true collection they must be the real thing and not imitations of the real thing. I own 4 GLOWs now, Marblehead and Split Rock(part of the Great Lakes Stamp Series) but I also have the LEs of these pieces. I also have Coquille GLOW to go with my LE and Cape Hatteras GLOW to go with my revised Cape Hatteras and my Cape Hatteras GAL. I use these GLOWS to add to my LEs. I did not start collecting until mid 1994 so there were several pieces, about $3,000.00 worth, of LEs that I had to buy on the secondary market. I did not cop out and buy GLOWs to satisfy my collection, I shopped around and found a deal to get what I wanted. I was one of the fortunate ones that started out when everything was still fairly attainable.

Now, if I were starting out now, I really don't know what I would do. I can't sit here and say that I wouldn't buy a GLOW if it were much cheaper then the LE and I can't say that I would buy the LE at any cost. Everyone to their own poison and whatever that poison is they will have to live with it. What confuses me to no end is the collector that sits and sees a LE on the Marketplace and wants to get it for the price of a GLOW and is offended if you don't sell the LE for the GLOWs price. I have run into this several times since advertising on the Marketplace. I don't recognize these names so I have to assume that they are people just browsing for a good deal and really don't know their product well enough to recognize a GLOW from a LE. With the prices that the LEs are selling for now a days, why would anyone want to even think about purchasing a GLOW when they could buy the LE for a few dollars more? I'll give you an example: I just talked to a new collector at work and offered them a LE Cape Canaveral(small unnoticible chip out of oilhouse brick wall) for $35.00 and they said no because they didn't want to spend the money because they would much rather hace a GLOW that was perfect. Several years ago when I had a chance to buy a Portland Head with a small chip out of the roof eave for $150.00 instead of the $800.00 going price at that time, I jumped on it, even though I could have bought the GLOW for $50-$60.00. Maybe I'm sick but I still consider that one of the best deals I ever made.

No GLOWS for me unless they enhance my LEs, but this is my thoughts on the subject and unless you walk in someone elses shoes, you can't think for them or know their monetary situation.

Rich

Back to the original thought put forward by Rock.... He is talking about an Event lighthouse being made into an Open Edition, not just a Limited Edition retiring and then an Open Edition being made of that lighthouse.

Nice notions but I don't purchase Harbour Lights because I think the Youngers are the best! I don't purchase Harbour Lights because I plan on investing in them. I don't purchase Harbour Lights because the Youngers donate to Lighthouse Preservation. I purchase Harbour Lights because I think they are the BEST, HANDS DOWN!!!!!!!!!!! What I don't care for is running to the store and paying full retail and then seeing lighthouses discounted. Am I the only knucklehead here that payed full retail for Navesink? If I am then I donated more to lighthouse preservation and the Youngers good intentions than some of you but man my dreams of making a killing on the secondary market sure took a hammering.

But the original thought put out by Rock comes down to a GLOW is a GLOW, whether it's a GLOW of a LE or a GLOW of an Event Piece. HL is putting out too many GLOWs, for whatever their reason is, and it is starting to hurt the LE collectors that helped HL get to where they are now. The GLOWS didn't get them to the top of the heap and the GLOWS didn't help establish the secondary market following that they have now. It was the LE and the collector that collected these LEs. The GLOWs may give HL the boost that they need to pay their bills, but, without the LE collectors, HL wouldn't have to worry about paying their bills. The would not have the following that they have now if they were to depend on their GLOW sales. I think what Rock is trying to say is ENOUGH IS ENOUGH ALREADY WITH THE GLOWS! let's not run a good thing into the ground and start turning your serious collectors away just to satisfy the occasional collector by giving him GLOWs to buy instead of LEs. An occasional GLOW will not hurt the serious collector but if every LE is going to eventually have a GLOW, why not just do away with the LE numbering altogether and just produce the LE until there is no demand for it anymore. This is essentually what HL is doing now. They are producing a limited number of pieces that they are calling LE and then within a few years bringing out a GLOW for everyone else to buy. Why would any serious collector continue to buy the LE if they know that their investment will not increase a little over time. I don't honestly think that there is a person out there that deep down in their subconsious mind buys a collectible and doesn't want it to increase in value over time. I will admit that I want my pieces to increase in value and that is why I buy them. My love of lighthouses is a bonus to my collection's value. How many others feel they same as I do is not known, but I would venture to say that there are quite a few, even if they don't want to admit it.

Enough said on this subject and of course, this is only my opinion on the GLOW fiasco.

Rich

Rich

Just a thought!
Maybe next years event could be the unveiling of the Glows of past event pcs.
Even with the occasional ripples, there is no better collectible outfit than Y&A.

Maybe next year we'll see a Golden Glow, a tad smaller than the original but at fraction of the cost?

To stick with the analogy... John your wife was collecting Morgan Silver Dollars, but you gave those to charity and replaced them with Susan B Anthonys. LOL! It's ok - I can understand - on face value they're worth the same. :-)

The idea of Harbour Lights as Collectibles is pretty much over. Can you acquire a bunch of them cause you like them? Sure you can. Can you call that a collection, I suppose so. Is HL a maker of Collectibles? Not any more. Once upon a time they were.

What is a Collectible? Read what I wrote here (as quoted in JJ's post - thankx JJ) For me personally, collecting Harbour Lights was more fun when they were true Collectibles. Why? I've written enough on the psychology of Collecting and won't bore you with more of that.

I suspect many of the folks who whine disagree about the value associated with certain LE models don't have many of the rarer pieces. (Yes there are exceptions.) Some folks get hung up on the money. The dollar value is an expression of rarity - something special. In the case of early HLs, limited availability caused the higher price. It was not high price that caused the rarity.

A Collectible is something for which there is not an endless supply.

There have always been knock-offs; lotta phony Rolexes around. But usually its not the Rolex company that makes a knock-off of their own product - so everybody can have one - shucks isn't that nice of 'em. (I don't believe it is DeBeers making those zirconia.) There's something to be said for staying true to the idea of making an exclusive. Y&A has made the decision not to stay true in that regard. There are no sacred cows among the LEs - and now, they will even mimic the Special Event pieces.

No doubt Society and Christmas pieces are the next candidates for GLOWs. Looks like the only piece safe from glowdom is New Point Loma.

HL as Collectibles is an idea whose time has come and gone. This did not happen by accident - Harbour Lights chose this course. They are smart business people - so don't think for a minute the primary motivation is not profit. Nothing wrong with that - its the American way. If HL can encourage people to give them money for a warm fuzzy more power to 'em. But the Collectible aspect broke a few years back and will not be repaired by quadruple by-pass Ft Tompkins' or lower edition sizes.

Glows are like Holland Lops - as soon as the second one shows up... Think of it like this - *every* Limited Edition you buy will some day soon be a GLOW.



As for the notion that somehow GLOWs are nice because it allows HL to give money to Lighthouse preservation - I don't understand this.
1. It's like giving money to a charity that sends 15% of its donations to the charity recipients. If you want to support Lighthouse preservation, send the full price of that GLOW directly to the lighthouse people.
2. HL does not encourage people to give money to lighthouse preservation. They encourage people to give them money so they can do that. And they get a nice tax write-off on all those GLOW donations.

This is simply an attempt to describe what I see as being the case, and not to complain about Harbour Lights or their business practices. You can buy or not buy for the reasons you choose. Whatever you do, enjoy it.
__
/


[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 03-12-2002).]

Tim those telepathic messages I sent your way are getting through. Those are my thoughts also, for the most part. (and stop reading my mind ;^) )

terry

terry - stop making it so easy - I'm sending more tin-foil. LOL!


(just kidding :-)


[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 03-12-2002).]