Because the previous thread was getting long and items were posting out of date order, I've begun a new thread for posting of finds of variation pieces with Gray's Harbor WA. You can read the previous thread on this subject by clicking on this URL: http://www.lighthousekeepers.com/forums/Forum3/HTML/000007.html

Please indicate in your reply to this thread the serial number and whether or not it is the variation.

IF your Gray's Harbor has a window lined up directly above the lower entry door - like the photo below - yours is NOT the variation. If you do NOT have a window lined up, then you have a variation.



As of the date & time this second thread was created, here are the serial numbers of pieces with the variation:

1137, 2234, 2404, 2424, 2483, 2513, 2550, 2555, 2559, 2578, 2583, 2680, 2729, 2884, 3298, 3299, 3300, 3317, 3323, 3324, 3455, 3457, 3539, 3614, 3620, 3673, 3726, 4073, 4138, 4163, 4191, 4443



[This message has been edited by JChidester.]

[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 11-10-98).]

#4121 is variation. Picked up in New Orleans

For the sake of argument, let's say one person put the variation together and didn't start at the beginning of the run but after 2000 were done. What would have prevented the others who were assembling Gray's Harbor from making an occasional mistake on a few of the Gray's Harbor lighthouses? It wouldn't have been a significant number. Until this person came along and made all of them wrong. Obviously the variation got by the inspectors in great numbers, so a couple of them (702) (1137) now and then wouldn't be spotted either. For now it appears that the vast majority are between 2440-4400. This theory isn't as eloquent as John's theory but it is my theory and I am sticking to it, until another one comes along.

Paul L Brady


[This message has been edited by engbrady.]

3889 - Standard
3891 - Standard

I am trying to complete a statistical analysis of the anticipated number of variation pieces. As soon as I am done, I will post it.

#393 is standard.
#701 is standard.
#702 is variation.
From the LE numbers I've seen posted so far #702 is the lowest?!? I purchased this one yesterday.It was displayed in window at a
dealership in East TN.Also had the #701.

1128 - Standard

I purchased a Gray's Harbor yesterday in Fort Wayne IN, #3552 that is a variation. I also have #852 that is standard.

The top on #3552 is turn 1 facet counter clockwise. That places the little door at the top inline with facet #3, if I understand John's numbering system.

[This message has been edited by Myron Snyder.]

[This message has been edited by Myron Snyder.]

I heard by phone from a collector in Florida who found a variation in Ocala - #834. This is the second 3 digit one now. This one is different, however, from all others I know of - the upper door in the top of the tower lines up with the lower tower entrance door.

Keep in mind that when you are looking at Gray's Harbour, the windows could line up OK, but the two doors might not be in the correct relationship and you would still be looking at a variation. (Normally the upper green-painted door is on the facet immediately right of the lower entry door.)

There could be 7 variations with an octagonal shape plus the original.

If you have a variation and have reported on it - check it to see which side the upper door is on. Count the facet with the lower entry door as #1 and the facet to the right as #2.

On my June 11th reply (in the Gray's Harbor, WA variations - Part 1) I asked if anyone had seen one with the lantern room turned clockwise. Evidently that is the case with this latest variation.

Clockwise 7 notches or counter-clockwise 1, depending on whether you live north or south of the equator.

0 :>)

Another variation reported #2014.

Did anyone hear any info at Rosemont
concerning Gray's Harbor variation?
Are there any new theories as to how or
how many?

Thanks
wclark

[This message has been edited by wclark.]

#3030 is a variation. I received an email from Lighthouse Gallery regarding the variation (many of you may have also). However I called to confirm that what they had was in fact the variation. Turns out they mis-understood the alignment issue. One of the ones they had (since sold) was a variation.

I had a long talk with Harry Hine of Harbour lights at Rosemont (the sample on display wasn't a variation). Harry said it was a real mystery. The top and bottom pieces have a shaped "key" to assure they line up correctly. The shape is a semi-circle with only about a 1/16" play.

Keeping in mind that both the tower and top are cast "upside-down", if the top had the male part of the shape and the tower had the female portion. If the top mold wasn't completely filled with material, the male portion wouldn't form and thus it would fit on the tower in any position. (Don't know if that's it or not, however.)

Harry did tell me that when he visits a factory, the first place he looks is the scrap heap - that tells him what kinds of problems they are having based on what parts they are scraping.

Here's a summary of the first thread, and my Email as of 7/13/98. The contents of this thread has not yet been tabulated. Don't give up. Either post to this thread or Email me FredKuhl@aol.com. Or, of, course John
We are also interested in what number your standard model is.

46 variations reported (Note that the variations
pretty well fall between 2200-4500)
120 standards reported

The variations are as follows:

702 (note low number)
1137 (note low number)
(Possibly broken in shipment, returned to
HL, and replaced with a later piece)
2234
2404,2410,2424,2483
2513,2550,2555,2559,2578,2583
2680
2729,2746,2751
2884,2896
3298,3299,
3030
3300,3317,3323,3324,
3400,3401,3455,3457
3509,3539,3563
3614,3620,3673,
3726
3801
3960
4073,
4121,4138,4163,4191,
4322
4443

Keep those cards and letters coming.
If you don't want to post to this board, Email me directly. Thanks


[This message has been edited by FredKuhl.]

During the Q & A part of Bill's seminar on Sunday (at Rosemont) someone asked about the Gray's Harbor variation. He said that sometimes the factories do things to make their lives easier and without bothering to ask for permission. He said that he guessed that the factory was having problems getting the top of the tower out of the mold and so they decided to make their lives easier by cutting off the top and making it a seperately molded piece. This is pretty common in the industry and they always put in a key to make sure that the pieces go together in the correct way.

That works fine. The problem arises when Joe Factory Worker has problems getting the key on the top piece to fit into the keyhole in the bottom piece. He thinks for a moment and comes up with a stroke of genius - if he cuts off the key the pieces will fit together fine. And the glue will hold them together. And of course he will remember to orient the pieces correctly.

Then Joe goes on vacation and Jim takes over that job for a couple of weeks. He has no instructions on how things go together. He thinks it would be a nice idea if you could see two windows from the front of the lighthouse.

And things went just fine until Fred had to go and tell on them. :-)

#728 - Standard

#2053 is a variation (bought in Dallas.)
#2054 is standard.

2313 - Variation
2301 - Standard
2315 - Standard

#3428 is a variation. Found at a store in Newport Beach, CA.

Gray's Harbors on display at 2 of my local dealers
3364 - Standard
3569 - Standard

[This message has been edited by preifsny.]

[This message has been edited by preifsny.]

My beautiful, elegant Gray's Harbor #1487 is NOT a variation.

Gray's Harbor #3304 in dealer display is standard.

Gray's Harbor #4325 variation found in Clinton, NJ and #4332 found in Freeport, ME. Both have the door at the top 90 degrees (two-panels) counterclockwise from the door at the base of the tower.


[This message has been edited by RFoster.]

Purchased #3551 in Florence, Alabama - it is a variation.

Quick Review on what the variation is:

First look at the front door to the lighthouse on the ground floor. Then look at the top of the lighthouse where you have a ring of windows that circle the lighthouse below the gallery. These windows are located in every other panel. It's these windows that have been the variation. To distinguish the variation look at these windows. If you have the correct (nonvariation) you will have a window lined up directly over the lower entrance door. If you have the incorrect (variation) you will have an empty panel lined up above the lower entrance door. There are two entry doors. The upper gallery and lower main entrance. Dont confuse the upper gallery door alignment. It is supposed to be in missalignment with the lower entrance door.


Sean

[This message has been edited by BuyGlass.]

... It is possible to have a window lined up above the lower entry door and still have a variation -- with 8 sides to the lighthouse tower and lantern room, there could be 7 variations. When the two parts are assembled 'correctly', the upper door is rotated one panel counterclockwise (looking down from the top) from the entry door at the bottom.

Most of the variations found have had the lantern room rotated one facet counter clockwise so that the upper door is on the SECOND panel counter clockwise (and a blank panel appears above the lower entry door rather than a window). If the top is rotated 3 panels counterclockwise, a window would appear above the entry door, but the upper door would be rotated farther around.

You can't just rule out a possible variation if there is a window above the lower entry door.

John

The variation which I found has the windows on facets 2,4,6 and 8 with the upper lantern room (green) door over the main door in facet 1. This is #3539 and was found in Manchester, NH

445 correct
3268 variation
3818 variation

Sean

Is this it then, now we just wait for this light to retire and get the numbers for those outstanding, if any?

Ron Drummer, friend and fellow Harbour Lights Collector, has found four more Gray's Harbour variations as follows:

Top (Lantern Room) door is 2-panels counterclockwise from the Bottom (tower entrance) door. These include #3370 found in Greenville, SC; #3817 & #3819 found in Easley, SC.

Top (Lantern Room) door is 3-panels counterclockwise from the bottom (tower entrance) door. This one is # 4226 found in Charleston, SC.

Ron will be at the Collector's Reunion next week in Providence, RI and may be willing to part with one or more of these rare finds.

HE'S DONE IT AGAIN. Ron Drummer, friend and fellow Harbour Lights Collector, has found two more Gray's Harbour variations with the top (Lantern Room) door 2-panels counterclockwise from the Bottom (tower entrance) door. These include #3640 & 3641 found in Somerset, NJ.

As mentioned in the previous post, Ron will be at the reunion in Providence and may consider selling/swapping one or more of these rare finds.

IS ANYONE KEEPING TRACK OF THE DIFFERENT VARIATIONS REPORTED TO DATE, AND HOW MANY OF EACH HAVE BEEN NOTICED SO FAR????

Yes, I am supposed to be keeping track of all variations. Am a little remiss. Will try to catch up upon return to Calif.
Greetings from my laptop and Conn. The trees are just starting to turn.

Fred.

P.S. Found a standard variation in Grand Island Nebr. #2922. Don't call them. I've already picked it up.

Have two variations one found in Depoe Bay Or.the other in La Conner Wa. #s 5115 & 4976 both two panels counter clockwise

I have the variation and the number is 2673

"Yes, I am supposed to be keeping track of all variations. Am a little remiss. Will try to catch up upon return to Calif."

HELLO, FRED!!! Are you back in California yet? After reading some of the posts on this topic I realize that not everyone said "which" variation they had. Maybe those who didn't say which variation they have could send Fred an update with that information. Then when Fred makes the final count we can get an idea of what percentage falls in what category.

Ron

We just purchased a double variation.

The windows are all off by 1 panel from the bottom (tower entrance) door.

The top (Lantern Room) door is 2 panels counterclockwise from the Bottom (tower entrance) door.

#2610 - pruchased in Monterey, CA
Made in China

I'm not sure what you mean by a double variation, but let's review the Gray's variation. The problem is caused because the gray top of the tower -- the lantern room -- is cast separately from the top. It's supposed to have a "key" that prevents it from being put on in the wrong orientation, but somehow that key was defeated in some manufacturing process on a relatively few pieces.

The tower and lantern room have 8 sides.

Note that in the lantern room, there is a door on the 'middle level'. It's painted the same color so you have to look closely to see it. This is the KEY to the variation.

When the lantern room is put on the tower CORRECTLY, then that upper door is offset one facet to the right of the lower tower entrance door. If correct, there is a window in the upper lantern room lined up with the panel that has the lower tower entrance.

In theory the 8 sided top could be put on the 8 sided tower in one of 8 ways. In 4 of those ways, a window will appear directly above the lower tower entrance door. And in 4 more ways, no window will appear above the lower tower entrance door.

Only ONE of these combinations is correct. The other 7 possibilities are variations. And in 3 of those possible variations, a window WILL appear above the lower tower entrance door.

So the test MUST be the relative position of the upper lantern room window, not just whether or not there is a window directly above the lower tower entrance door.

Here are two pictures that show the correct (left) and one possible variation (right).






[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 11-10-98).]

I like the numbering scheme you used before...start numbering the facets with the lower entrance door being #1 and proceede counter-clock wise. The standard was Green Door in #2, windows in #1,#3,#5 and #7.

Variation #1 Green door in #3, windows in #2,#4,#6,#8

Variation #2 Green door in #1, windows in #2,#4,#6,#8.

I think that was all the variations which were found, however, there may be more out there.

I have VAR#2

Herb.

My mistake...after reading again it appears that more than just 2 variations have been found.

Herb

[This message has been edited by HCarpenter (edited 11-11-98).]

In rereading the very first post in this thread, I realized I made a mis-statement.



In fact if you have a window lined up above the lower door, you COULD have a variation. It is the relative position of the upper and lower doors that determine the variation.

Let me clarify “double variation”. If “window section” and “upper door section” of the tower are two separate pieces, you could have:

#1 The windows NOT properly aligned (without a window above main entrance) but, the upper door IS 1 panel right of the entrance.

#2 The window section properly aligned (with a window above main entrance) but, the upper door not 1 panel right of the entrance.

Since I have both of the above, I called it a “double variation”, sorry if this caused any confusion. To be more precise, what I have is green door in #3, windows in #2,#4,#6,#8

Based on numbering the facets with the lower entrance door facet being #1 and proceeding counter-clock wise with the numbering.

OK, Polly. I understand. I'm quite certain the gray portion of the top of the tower (the lantern room and levels below it) are cast as ONE piece so you have a variation where that piece is rotated one facet counter-clockwise.

Normally the upper door is on facet #2 (one facet counterclockwise from the lower tower entrance door). This is the most common one. When that upper door is on any other facet than #2 (normal) or #3 (most common variation), then you have a more uncommon one.

Whether the more uncommon one has any more value to collectors or not will only be determined by the marketplace.

To my knowledge, this Gray's Harbor variation is the first ASSEMBLY error we know of. Since the tower and top are two pieces glued together, it's feasable that a top COULD be removed and rotated to any position one wanted. This would be unethical, of course. I just point out that this 'variation' is not the same as a mold modification.

Others may have different opinions, so let's here what you all think... Is this Gray's Harbor like Mold 1 and 2 Assateague? Or is it like a color change of the tower in Beavertail? Or...??

Let us keep it simple here. There is no such thing as a "double variation" since the green upper door is always one panel either side of the windows (either one panel left or right, clockwise or counter-clockwise, it's all the same).

With this in mind, then the placement of the green door in relation to the lower entrance door to the tower, is what constitutes whether or not there is a variation. If the green door is above panel #2 then this is normal. If the green door is anywhere else it is a variation.

As John mentioned earlier, there are seven possible variations. Simply the green door is in panel #1, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7 or #8.

Ron

That clarifies things a little bit better for me...I suggest then that the variations be catagorized by GREEN DOOR FACET NUMBER and listed as being located in the #1,#3,#5, or #7 positon. Does that make sense? Also, this is not an Assateague this is something new, a production error...perhaps there are others that have not been discovered...where does the boat hang on your Thomas Point...over the rocks?? Perhaps some of these are shifted one facet to the left.

See the new thread in reference to other potentially mis-aligned pieces.



[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 11-12-98).]

My GH has upper door on facet #1.....directly above lower door.
#702 Edition number. My standard is #393.
Couldn't remember if I had sent this info to Fred.
[ See 6-21 post ]

tnkeeper aka Debbie

I have serial no. 2837, no variation.

IMHO, this variation is no Assateague. There is no theoretical limit to the number of Gray's Harbor pieces with the variation up to the maximum of the edition size (9,500). A manufacturing screw-up like this doesn't enhance value (again, IMHO), but *does* detract from the realism. I'm glad mine is *not* a variation. Of course, only the marketplace will decide in the end if there is any value to the variation(s). But I wouldn't bet on it.

I disagree with you here Art. I think that the variation is so subtle that it doesn't detract from the realism. I'm not sure what a "theoretical limit" has to do with this. The fact that it is not known how many of each variation are out there is much of the fun and mystery and I think this actually enhances market value. It doesn't really matter if the variation was caused at the inception of the piece or with the final brush stroke, a variation is a variation (IMHO).

Ron

P.S. Fred, how is the official count coming?

Sorry Ron,

The updated official is going slowly. It is on my TODO list (which I think I am use for a bookmark in mt HONEYDO list). I know I left it somewhere

Fred

Fred,

Honey-Do definitely takes precedence!!!!

We'll be waiting patiently. Thanks for the response.

Ron

We just found the following pieces with variation #3. #2821 in Franklin, Tenn (now in Warrior, Ala) and #3010 at Argosy in Huntsville, Ala. Also saw #3012 which is standard.

[This message has been edited by FredKuhl (edited 11-27-98).]

Here's a summary of the first thread, second thread and my Email as of11/26/98. If you have a variation either post to this thread or Email me FredKuhl@aol.com. Or, of, course John. We are also interested in what number your standard model is.

68 variations reported (Note that the variations
pretty well fall between 2200-4500)
133 standards reported

The variations are as follows:
Variation 1
702 (note low number)
1137 (note low number)
(Possibly broken in shipment, returned to
HL, and replaced with a later piece)
2014,2053
2234
2313
2404,2410,2424,2483
(2513),2550,2555,2559,2578,2583
2610,2673,2680
2729,2746,2751
2821,2884,2896
(2922)
3010,3030
3298,3299,
3268
3300,3317,3323,3324,3370
3400,3401,3428,3455,3457
3509,3539,3551,3552,3563
3614,3620,3640,3641,3673,
3726
38013817,3818,3819
3960
4073,
4121,4138,4163,4191,
4322,4325,4332
4443
4976
5115
Variation 2
4226
variation 7
393
834
3539

Keep those cards and letters coming.
If you don't want to post to this board, Email me directly. Thanks

The majority of the variations were reported as Variation 1. This was early on before someone actually found and reported a different variation. Parts ain’t necessarily parts. All variations are not the same. Please report again on your variation using the diagram below. Basically forget the windows and just check the location of the little green door. Those pieces that have been reverified are shown in parenthesis.


.........5 This isn’t the best diagram, but it
....6/.....\4 should help explain the variations.
...7|.......|3 Panel 1 is directly above the bottom
....8\._./2 entry door
........1 In the standard version, the green door
is above panel 2

In the first and most common variation found: The green door is located above panel 3 (variation 1?)

Another variation that has been reported: The green door is located above panel 1(variation 7?)

Does anyone have variations that would qualify for variations 2 through 7 (remember, we are looking for the location of the green door.

....................5 Var3
........Var4 6/....\4 Var2
........Var5 7|....... |3 Var 1
..........Var6 8\._./2 Standard
............Var7 .. 1

Sorry about the dots, but the forum doesn't like spaces.

[This message has been edited by FredKuhl (edited 11-27-98).]

[This message has been edited by FredKuhl (edited 11-27-98).]

[This message has been edited by FredKuhl (edited 11-27-98).]

[This message has been edited by FredKuhl (edited 11-27-98).]

Hi Fred,
I have Gary's Harbor Standard #948 and my variation #2680 is variation #1 (Green door over 3rd facet). Good luck on compiling all of this.
Rich

------------------

We have #2797 with no variation

#209 green door above panel 2

Part 2 is closed onward to Part3

http://216.46.163.97/forums/Forum3/HTML/000073.html


SaintWackoPaul'
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