I have not seen any signature series in my local store. How will they differ in size and quality of detail compared with the limited edition of the same lighthouse?

The diffrence between the signature series and the limited edition is simmilar to the other open edition lighthouses and there limited edition counterparts. The signature Thomas Point piece is very nice (IHMO) but slightly smaller and the Tybee signature piece is smaller than the LE but quite diffrent than the LE. It is painted in a diffrent paint scheme representing a earlier period of time and has many buildings that were not included with the LE and possibly the best OE Harbour Lights has done yet.

Mark

In addition to Mark's comments, the 'Signature Series' pieces have a larger red-white-blue bottom label that has been pre-signed by Bill Younger. The 'Signature Series' version of the GLOW will not go on forever. I've heard no plan yet on how many of the GLOWs of Tybee and Thomas Point will have the special label. Once the decision is made to stop with the special label, HL expects to continue to offer the piece as a regular GLOW.

Its all been smooth waters of late but the fogs rolling in...



Its great for BY to have a vent for his warm fuzzies for lighthouses that "mean something special" to him. And if the 'signature series' is offered at no cost differential from other OEs then perhaps its relatively harmless.

Nonetheless I gotta say - 'gimme a break, HL'. What's the point of this special limited time label?

Its bad enough to gussy up the OE's in size and attractiveness, its a wholly different story to create something like a limited version of an OE by using a special limited time label. On the one hand if the label is intended to create some illusion of value bestowed upon a Signature model over a piece from the same mold without the special label - then I say stop futzing with the boundary between OE and LE.

On the other hand, if the intent is to create sales of the piece that otherwise would not be there if it had a standard OE label, then I say its a tacky marketing gimmick designed primarily to put a glow in Bill's wallet.

It might be more appropriate to make a Signature piece of a true LE - its being so designated indicates some percentage of its sales go toward lighthouse preservation or something otherwise meaningful.

From the Fog Signal Building,
__
/im

Until Tim's post on the Signiture Series Pieces, I hadn't really thought about it, but by placing special labels with Bill's signatue on them, placing them on open edition pieces, and limiting the number of these sold (although no one quite knows how many). This open edition Signiture Series, IMHO becomes a limited edition piece.

People can argue there are no true open editions because at some point in time, somewhere down the road, these pieces will all retire (and the number of them limited to those produced), but I agree with Tim. Harbour Lights is narrowing the gap between the Limited and Open pieces too much.

It's my understanding that Bill has signed so many pieces that his signature no longer has much value beyond the sentimental. To me it's like seeing Cheryl Spencer Collins' signature on a piece. Big whoop. They're a dime a dozen.

HOWEVER...there are a lot of people who do value his signature, and it is probably going to be a successful marketing tool. But Todd and Tim are right...it blurs the distinction between the coveted limited editions and the "sky's the limit" open editions. As a marketing guy myself, I don't really see how the Signature series will actually hurt the HL line...especially if they continue to agree not to produce an open-edition until the matching limited edition piece has retired (and preferably disappeared off store shelves).

Lessee...

I bought a Limited Edition Thomas Point for my collection when it came out for $99. I don't have any plans to sell my collection. Did I buy HLs as an 'investment'? No. Does the fact that some retired lighthouses go up in value sometime after retirement make me think I 'made a wise investment' - Not relly. Does it make me think that I chose a strong collectible? Yes - but I don't plan to sell.

Did I perhaps buy a couple of 'extra' Thomas Points thinking I could set them aside for a year or two and make a few bucks to support my hobby? Maybe.

Am I concerned that my $198 closet investment might not go up as quickly as I thought because there are now GLOW versions - and not only GLOW versions but ones with a special "Signature Series" label. Comeon... My $198 might be worth $320 instead of $420 in 3 years? Will I miss the $100? No.

Now, if I'm trying to buy them as they come out and I'm obsessive enough to want EVERY permutation and combination, well then yes, if they have a GLOW Signature Series version AND a GLOW (no signature), I'm going to spend the extra $90 to own one of each. So my lighthouse budget went up by $90 for the year.

The GLOWs offer new collectors a choice and an opportunity. They offer tourists who aren't collectors an exceptionally good value and terrific reproduction. They are good for Harbour Lights - and that should also be good for collectors whether they 'found' Harbour Lights in 1991, 1996, or 1998.

IMHO, of course. If I missed the point here, I'm sure I'll hear about it.

_/ohn [SEPARATED at birth from U-Know-Who]

I think occasionally we need to step back and just enjoy the line for what it is. I think sometimes we just take ourselves too seriously (myself included), and turn the collectibles into some kind of futures trading or stock market club.

Of course they have a tremendous value when a collection approaches 100 sculptures or more, but how many of us have actually purchased that many to truely sell someday. Even if HL went out of business and the values dropped suddenly, I would still be satisfied with the sculptures I have and what I paid for them. I would bitch and moan with the best of you, but I would still be satisfied. I think we set our sights on having "them all" too much, and everytime HL makes a move that seems to make that goal impossible (or much more painful in the wallet), we get a little testy.

Don't you guys occasionally yearn to be the collector who just discovered and purchased his very first HL, knowing nothing about variations, lightning rods, GLOW's and Signature Series? Just don't become too pessimistic, that every new purchase becomes a painful chore to determine if it is the right "investment" decision or not. Or worse than that, dont reach the point that every new piece becomes so commonplace that when you bring it home it goes directly to the "trophy case", without at least taking the effort to enjoy it. (At least take the time to marvel at Becky's paint job on Grand Haven's roof...she will be mad if you don't)

Be thankful that we have the means to indulge ourselves in such an exclusive "club" of having so many of what we love. Don't worry, be happy...Life's too short.

...wow, did I really type that? I think the violins are starting to play. I better get off this rare 3 sided autographed soapbox before I break an ankle...or heaven forbid, the rare soapbox! LOL

---

-RodW

[This message has been edited by Rod Watson.]

To John and Rod - Amen. To the rest of you wake up and smell the flowers. Enjoy HL for what they are and don't worry about how they are marketed. Have a good day

To John and Rod - Amen. To the rest of you wake up and smell the flowers. Enjoy HL for what they are and don't worry about how they are marketed. Have a good day

I agree with John and Rod regarding the need to lighten up and enjoy the various series of lighthouses for what they are. As a relatively new collector, I wrestled with the idea of setting a collecting plan. I realized that I have finite shelf space and budget. I won't buy them all and don't want to play the speculation game. I'm buying the ones I like regardless of series. If I buy more than my shelves hold, I'll either rotate the display pieces periodically for variety or sell the occasional piece. In any event, I'm not going to get too hung up on LE vs. Signature vs. regular Glow series.

Enough space? What's the problem? As long as I have some empty horizontal surfaces in my house, I have plenty of space.

I enjoy all of the different versions of each lighthouse. I put them all together. In some cases, I have the LE lighthouse, the OE version, the ornament, the spyglass, and the thumbnail, all together. It makes for an interesting display.

And if you don't want to buy any of them, don't. There are plenty of people behind you who will.

But as a secondary markup, er, market dealer you obviously acknowledge a considerable demand for pieces no longer available. Indeed caching pieces away with the hopes of selling them at a higher price later. Nothing wrong with this of course. Always good to know the line between business and pleasure.

But it just doesn't ring quite true whenever I hear someone deny interest in the relative or increased value of their collection (aka investment). Likewise when I hear someone disavow interest in what affects the value of their collection I'm usually talkin' with someone who: a) has a lot more money than I do (and alot more than the guy who debates on buying Grand Haven today versus a tank of gas for the boat), or b) just started collecting, or c) is not entirely aware of what they're doing :-), or d) belongs to (what I now dub) the New Age School of Collectibles - "It doesn't really matter what I'm collecting as long as I feel good about it". (We can't say we weren't warned - those educational theories of the 80's *will* come back to bite us ;->)

The folks who claim not to care about the *value* (aka current dollar value) of their collection and only acquire pieces "because we love lighthouses"
are, imo, fooling themselves or trying to fool someone else. Not too much art-for-art's-sake is recognized as art. - never mind Andre Breton. This remark will no doubt bring crys of protest from the graduates of the Mick Jagger School of Cultural Awareness ("Aint' no school boy but I know what I like" - Brown Sugar, circa 1970).

Sorry - I tried putting my keys on the dresser - had a big wad of change in my pocket that I also dumped, but it just didn't seem to help. It looks like I ain't gonna be joining y'all floating over there in the corner - but I sure hope you have a nice day :-)

Rgds,
__
/im (...from the Fog Signal Building - where never is heard a discouraging word and the skies are not cloudy all day)

[This message has been edited by JTimothyA.]

You guys while waxing poetic philosophy may have forgot the main reason for the Signature series, other than to make money for Harbour Lights. Bill Younger wanted to do a series containing lighthouses that are special to him. Maybe you should all read the story that comes with the lighthouse, that comes from Bill's own hand, I am told . You might discover the special meaning of the Signature series.

The last time I checked it is still Bill Younger's family business and they not only want to make money but I have found they really do want us to feel like part of their family.

I try and not lose sight of the fact that if there was no secondary market, I still have some very special lighthouses. They constantly remind me of the real ones and my love for them. I also enjoy the fact that the technical quality has improve with the years making my collection a history of Harbour Lights growth.

Paul

PS It was my turn to wax.

[This message has been edited by engbrady.]

You will find no one more grateful than I over Harbour Lights' "family" way of operating. They are usually very nice to deal with, and clearly have an affinity for what they do.

At the same time, let's be real. They're selling high-priced "luxuries" and they're in a highly competetive industry. If they aren't friendly...if they don't bond with their customers while improving their product...they're dust.

Further, if they don't help foster the whole "collectibility" aspect of their line, then their secondary market disappears and they end up like their competitor: Making a tiny number of pieces with no sign of any secondary-market potential down the road. And THAT translates into stagnation of new collectors. Nobody wants to join a "clique" that no one else is joining. It's the secondary market hooplah that's gained HL a lot of followers, and we've all benefitted from it.

No question, Bill and his family work very hard and exhibit a lot of patience toward their customers. At the same time, we're keeping their babies in booties and I think we deserve to have a say...even a passive one...about their business tactics. Bill Younger has a special affinity for Tybee and Thomas Point. I respect that. But the way he's marketing his affinity has raised some eyebrows. It has the potential...a significant one...of blurring the distinction between "Limited" and "Open." For HL's die-hard collectors (and we're the people they want to keep as customers the most) that raises a yellow flag, much the same way it did when HL wanted to make pieces like Alcatraz, Mukilteo and Fire Island open editions right off the bat. The signature series debate isn't as dramatic, but please grant us a brief moment of angst. In the big picture, it's justified.

Rightly or wrongly, and regardless of how much we all like lighthouses, the chasm between "Open" and "Limited" in a line of collectibles is huge.

P.S. Just a thought: If North Head or Cape Blanco (the two worst-selling pieces in the line) hold an extra-special place in Bill Younger's heart, do you think he'll do a signature series for them?

Oh yes indeed this is a VERY cynical question...but I think we know what the answer is and why.

[This message has been edited by Bill Harnsberger.]

It would be nice to step back, take a deep breath, lighten up, not take ourselves too seriously. Can anyone honestly say they can do that? Can anyone say I'm going to take a break and not purchase the next couple of limited edition pieces? How about selling your extra St. Augie to a new collector for the retail price you paid for it? Ok, those are extreme examples, but do you see what I am getting at? Value is important. That is why Harbour Lights are collectables. That is why there is a secondary market.

Rod is right though, I do take myself and my collecting too seriously. For God's sake, we talk about the value of the boxes HL's come in! The value of the paperwork that comes with them. How many month's to retirement, variations. We discuss these very topics in this forum and in weekly chats. I could go on and on.

I don't fault Harbour Lights for running a business or for wanting to make a profit. The bottom line for any business is money. Don't get me wrong there either. I know Bill Younger's heart and soul lie with the history, lore, and preservation of lighthouses. I do however, think that Harbour Lights puts too much pressure on its collectors. I realize that we are adults and control what we do, but don't tell me that Younger & Associates doesn't know the collecting habits and idiosyncrasies of their collectors.

The bottom line is that IMHO, the LE's should be LE's and the OE's should be OE's. They both serve their purposes well. Why not keep it like that? Please, don't futz with the distinction between the two.
__
/odd (wide awake and smelling the flowers while expressing my opinion)

P.S. I hope no one takes this post the wrong way. It is not an attack on any one person, mearly something to get people thinking about what we are doing and why.
It is a pretty dark post and I do need a little lightning up....

[This message has been edited by Todd Shorkey.]

Of course you know Todd, you are right on the button. My original post was meant to be somewhat of a lighthearted injection of some food for thought we need to be reminded of occasionally. I do sometimes find myself hauling home every new piece and slapping it on the "trophy shelf", without really taking the time to enjoy it with an excitement like I had on my first pieces. It's not much of a question anymore of whether I really like it or not...it still comes home with me anyways. Could I cut myself off?...I seriously doubt it (The 12 point rehab program doesn't really work). Personally, the new "signature" series just creates another realm to deal with from the wallet for myself, and should I incorporate it into the collection, or skip the series?...a painful decision.

I have limited myself to keeping the Anchor Bay and GLOW series off limits...so it will not be coming home with me, but the "blur" of GLOW vs limited has had somewhat of an impact on me, though. I recently purchased the "original" versions of the 4 remolded GLOW pieces, which I convinced myself earlier would not happen. Convictions down the drain...So it is the perceived value that they are now limited that "made" me do it. If the signature gets lifted soon, yes I probably will go get one before it's too late.

As Paul mentioned, I'm sure the series is very special to Bill, just like the thumbnails he passed out to children was. I salute them for increasing their sales at the same time. A healthy HL company usually means a longer life and higher quality to the line. "Trickle down" can work you know.

I do not believe though that the signature series (whether eventually pulled of the signature, or not) is going to have an impact on the limited edition counterpart. I really don't forsee the limited edition Tybee suddenly slowing or dropping in value because of it. What I do see though is collectors will just want one of each for their collection, which tends to reinforce my thought that most of the complaints ultimately focus on the pocketbook impact of now "having" to get yet another one for the collection, and being a little testy that HL would have the gall to turn around and introduce yet another series to confuse our purchasing habits. Boy they have the nerve, I was just starting to finally catch up...LOL

It has been us collectors though, who have also helped "blur" the distinction when we demanded that Barnegut must be remolded to look right, creating a limited out of the first mold GLOW. It will not impact the value at all of the limited Barnegut, but just creates another "must have". Other collectors bitched and moaned that it was not fair for the NPL to be so exclusive that they could not also be allowed to purchase one (which I strongly disagree with. I dont even have one myself, but they should have only been released to the attendies of the first reunion) HL listened to the complaints, and now we have 2 versions of Rose Island which many other collectors did not think was the right decision. No matter what decision they make, someone will be unhappy. I think they have done a very good job of listening to what we have to say, and that is why this debate is healthy, albeit a little stressful.

I don't believe any of the opinions on the Forum are "personal attacks" in any way whatsoever. Every post has a very valid point to sift through...we will all be partying hardy at the reunion together before you know it. That's when the true focus behind the HL lighthouse "club" will brightly shine.

Man, I am rambling alot lately...someone tell me to shut up please!

---

-RodW

[This message has been edited by Rod Watson.]

'Guilty' - I guess I'm the guy who said


That information was based on early discussions with someone at Harbour Lights a few months ago about the time the Signature Series idea was announced. Was a 'Signature Series' a GLOW? I asked. Yes. Would they all have the signature label? They weren't sure. But it was a GLOW so it would probably continue to be available with or without the special label.

So I got to wondering what Harbour Lights’ final plans were for the ‘Signature Series’ so I called and asked. Here’s what I was told (Paraphrased)



To quote the late Roseanne Roseannadana

(wish I could make that face pink)

John 0~~~ :>)
(Is that my halo floating away?)


[This message has been edited by JChidester.]

Nah - sainthood means never having to say you're sorry. LoL!


Rgds,
Sister Mary Navesink

Man, I love these forums!

I agree with Sister Mary Navesink and see NO reason to de-canonize St. John [g]. There IS a lot of good discussion going on here and - it must be the Libra in me - but I agree with EVERYBODY. Has collecting lost some of it's "excitement" for me? Sure. I no longer enjoy the thrill of the hunt for those retired pieces. Heck, I had never even SEEN many of them until I made a pilgrimage to the Lighthouse Depot last summer. I carried my list with me and drove all over New England searching for dealers with pieces I didn't have - and emailed every dealer on the web I could find looking for society pieces and Christmas pieces. It was the best "scavenger hunt" I've ever been on. I too am torn over what I want to collect. Right now I collect only LE's (with the exception of the first Hatteras I bought when I was blissfully unaware there was a difference) but I'm torn on those Signatures... plus, (and this bothers me MORE) some of the OEs are PRETTIER than the LIMITED Editions, so if I'm collecting only what I like (sure, O Completist One), why don't I have those as well? As the song goes, "Money, money money money.. money!" and space.

Reunion pieces???... Those who fork over the dough to attend the reunions SHOULD get something special and unique. Finances has something to do with it, but I think there are many of us that FIND a way to get to the reunion, despite the $$ involved. It's called dedication ..or was that addiction [g].

Okay, I've said my piece. Nice jawing with you folks!
:-)-8-<=

Uhh... Could you repeat the question, Alex?


And the answer is (in the form of a question Jeopardy fans]

"What question could you ask that would generate the most and the longest answers among Harbour Lights hard core collectors?"

[This message has been edited by JChidester.]

For $200 -

"Which 1:1 scale fully-operational lighthouse at its original site is really an HL Artist Proof?"


Rgds
__
/im ( groins? we don't need no steenkin groins.)

To Y'all -

Was out of town during the major portion of the LE/OE/Signature discussion, but just can't pass up the opportunity to give the ol' dead horse one more kick.

1. Somebody pointed out that if I'm not (or say I'm not) really interested in the value of my collection then I'm either fooling myself or trying to fool you. I say BALDERDASH!!!
I collect because I like the lighthouses I buy. I'm (personally) not going to spend money on a lighthouse I don't find aesthetically pleasing just because it might "be worth something someday" or because it's an LE. (EG - I don't like Ida Lewis Rock - why should I buy it just because it's out there?) My own personal bent is to purchase LE's and Society pieces that relate to the East and Gulf coasts, it doesn't mean I have to buy EVERY piece along that stretch. The only reference to $$ I make is whether or not I have enough with me to buy the lighthouse I want when I want it. (Don't worry, I don't have a boat so whether or not to choose between a tank of gas and a lighthouse is NOT a consideration.)

2. I collect - not obsess. I don't need (or necessarily want) to have every sculpture Harbour Lights has ever made. If collecting ever gets to the point where it's not fun - I'll stop. (And no - it's not like giving up smoking.)

3. I still have enough horizontal surfaces to display my pieces. When I don't - I won't buy more. Call me silly, but if I can't display what I've collected, why bother. It does me no good to keep some sculptures in their boxes in a closet. I display my collection for me - I enjoy it.

4. Okay, so maybe I'm not a serious collector (whatever that is!), but I'm enjoying the h#@% out of whatever it is I am doing. Consider the following:

Collect: To accumulate as a hobby or for study.

Hobby: An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

pleasure: A source of enjoyment or delight; Amusement, diversion, or worldly enjoyment

(Nothing I see in the above includes becoming apoplectic about whether or not BY should issue a Signature Series - and whether, if he does, it should be LE or OE.)

5. If you don't like what Younger & Associates are doing business-wise, don't buy. Certainly, contact them with your concerns. Any business worth its salt listens to its customers. But lets face it, if they decide tomorrow to create sculptures of famous tenement buildings in the Bronx (signed by former Mayor Ed Koch), it's their call. You can always switch over to Beanie Babies

6. Don't take yourself - or me for that matter - too seriously.

7. The horse may now be ready for the ALPO factory.


DISCLAIMER: This message was actually prepared by those dang cows who snuck into the family room, surreptitiously obtained my password and sent this out while they had me tied to a milking machine in the barn.

Paul F. - Vter
(Somewhere out behind the barn)

^^^^^
@ @

I received this from a person who wishes to remain anonomous, but asked me to pass their thoughts along. If you are shy about posting to the forum I will pass your comments along if you E-mail them to me. We’re all friends on this forum and you shouldn’t be afraid to post yourself as long as you don’t make a personal attack on someone.

Anyhow here is the post:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t understand.

Why is Bill Younger’s signature so important. I’m a collector of many things - it is the artist who is important - not the owner or founder of the company. I’ve seen pieces advertised with BY’s signature. BIG DEAL. Who was the artist? By the same token, it isn’t the box or packaging that makes the lighthouse.

I don’t know if you are lighthouse lovers or Harbour Lights (BY) lovers.
I’ve found some other lighthouses by different companies that are as nice. Cheaper also. If a particular lighthouse strikes my fancy I buy it. I love lighthouses and don’t care who makes them. Can you say the same? Or, is it the increase in value you are really looking for.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
That’s it. Address any answers or rebuttal to Anon. Or, E-mail me and I will pass it along.

Don’t blow out the flame!
Fred

I'm guessing that you are a fairly new collector based on the questions you ask. I'll be reasonably nice in my answers.

There are collectible lines where the value of a piece increases, sometimes significantly, if the artist has signed it. Harmony Kingdom is one line that comes to mind. Harbour Lights prefers that the lighthouses themselves be the stars and so they keep the names of the artists unknown.

Bill Younger risked a lot of his own money in order to follow his dream of establishing a lighthouse collectibles company. He is very well-liked and so people started asking him to sign their lighthouses. Bill will sign just about anything you put in front of him. Having his signature on some of my lighthouses is just something to remind me of one of the many times I have met him.

The fact that he signs so many pieces makes his signature irrelevant as far as the secondary market price is concerned. He does that on purpose, again, so the lighthouses are the stars. When you go to a Harmony Kingdom signing, the artists usually have a limit of 3 pieces for each person.

Now as far as the packaging goes, it is indeed a big deal. The average person in this country moves every five years. In my own case, it seems to happen more often than that. I have lighthouses that are worth over $1,000 each and I am not going to toss them into some old box when I move. They will go into the box that was designed to hold them during shipment. To do anything else would be silly.

I will agree that some people go a little nuts with their concerns about whether the box has the right number on it, but I won't buy a lighthouse unless it comes with SOME type of harbour lights box and some decent packing materials.

Unless I get one hell of a deal on the price, that is.

Now as for your comment about finding lighthouse replicas made by other companies that are just as nice and that cost less, I'm afraid I'd have to ask you to take a breathalyzer test before I'd even consider believing it.

I have been to all of the major collectible shows this year and have been in more collectible shops since last August than more people go into in their entire lives. And I have yet to see a lighthouse collectible company that can touch the quality and attention to detail offered by Bill Younger's stable of artists. In fact, I find many of the other lighthouse sculptures to be almost comical.

Of all of the companies that make architectural miniatures of any kind, there is only one that is more accurate than Harbour Lights. And that is Enesco's Lilliput Lane cottages. The only problem with them is that they are so very expensive. And yes, I collect those too.

To answer your last question, no I can't say that too. I love lighthouses as you do, but I care very much who makes them.

I can honestly say that having Bills signing on a piece does not make that piece anymore valueable.

I was in Florida a few years ago and went into a store that handled HLs, they had a Pensacola that because Bill had signed it they were asking $200.00??""'';;:: I told the lady that she was taking advantake of people and that I had intended to purchase two or three LHs from her but could not deal with her establishment.

So I stand by my beliefs that if I can live with it fine, if not that fine to.

It is a take are leave it situation, I chose to leave it and ,maybe the next person chose to take it that is their business.

Bravo, Jeff. Well said. You've expressed it better than I could and echoed my sentiments exactly, except that I've rarely moved. I've seen most if not all the other lighthouse sculpture lines and nothing comes even close to HL.

Lamar