Up in the Sweetness and Light forums there's the start of yet another discussion on what is a collectible. This time in the context of HL's portending release of the This Little Light of Mine series. These are a bunch of mini-scale models, the first pictures of which cover models they've already made. (Nice thing about them lighthouses - the real ones don't change much over time.)

JC, ever the defender and explainer of all things Y and A offers these morsels...



Right... Pennies, and string, and Art's sea shells are a collectible. Anything you can acquire is collectible. BUT! Not everything is a Collectible. And while the world mishes and mashes words and meanings into whatever is convenient, for me at least, there's a difference between acquiring stuff and collecting a Collectible.

A Collectible is something that has limited availability, is valued as defined by the marketplace, and is desirable. These factors, along with its uniqueness define the Collectible's success.

When HL first started their line of Limited Edition Collectible Lighthouse Models, they promoted them as exactly that, Collectibles. These models, with their proscribed production sizes, were designed from the get-go to have limited availability and (so the Youngers certainly hoped) desirability. Having worked w/ David Winter, BY knew all about Collectibles. The combination of limited availability and desirability is exactly the 1-2 punch he hoped to achieve. The combination of limited production coupled with their high quality relative to other lighthouse models made them unique and gave this line of 'by-design' (or manufactured) Collectibles a real chance of making it.

Once a successful Secondary Market sprang up where the models were selling for more than they cost, Y&A knew they had a winner. I'll spot the strong emergence of a Secondary Market for HL LEs somewhere in the 93-94 timeframe. (If you've got a different date, OK fine, but it was obviously in full swing by the second half of 94.)

Then - imo - they screwed up. They tried introducing Open Edition models of lights they had never released before. At that time, the folks who'd bought into collecting their by-design Collectibles rightly raised a fuss. HL retracted this approach and vowed not to issue Open Editions of Limited Editions they hadn't previously released and to hold off till the LE retired before it was 're-released' as an OE. The first 'real' OEs were smaller, cheaper, and not quite as elaborate as the Limiteds. When they did release Open Editions they - again imo - screwed up big time by numbering the Open Editions. Now many think the newer OEs are nicer than their matching cousins.

I'm not knocking Y&A business success or Y&A people (they're wonderful people). BUT! from the perspective of a collector of Collectibles, as someone who bought into their pitch of limited availability, desirability and value, I've got to say phooey to the Open Editions. Why? because the OEs compromise the LE line's uniqueness. It is the characteristic of uniqueness that attracts people and sets a true Collectible off from collections of stuff. Unique things tend to be desirable and hold their value more than the commonplace. When something that was once unique becomes commonplace, its no longer perceived as having the same attraction to many people. Creation of OEs very similar to the LEs is a sell out of the Collector who bought into the line based on its original premise. Here's where I'll draw on John's car example to try making my point.

Suppose Chevy comes out with a very special car called the Newvette which they say right up front is a limited edition - only so many will be made and then production stops. Newvettes ain't cheap, but they're unique, very nice, and sell out. Turns out however that Chevy is a one a trick pony - they tried making a new car called the BayAir, but it didn't sell very well. So a year later Chevy comes out with a car called the Newvette II that is essentially the same as the Original Newvette, but it has a nicer paint job, every tom dick and harry can afford it, and Chevy sez they'll make enough so anybody who wants one can buy. Chevy created something desirable, marketed it as a limited edition exclusive, then, once it was established as A Special Thing in the public eye, they turned around and sold cheaper attractive knock-offs of their own product. And the Newvette II sold like hotcakes. Wow - what a racket!

All the people who were too late or too poor to buy the real Newvette could now own one. And since there's always a whole lot more folks who are too late or too poor than the group who saw the original Newvette as a truly special car, it was their voices that Chevy heard. And why not, there's gold in them there Newvette IIs. But the buyers of the original Newvette no longer had something unique.

So whats it all mean? I dunno. :-) In the world of collectibles-by-design you pays your money and takes your chances. I'm sure there are more new lines of things labeled as 'Limited Edition Collectibles' that fail than suceed. And nowadays you can bet that when a Collectible turns out to be real successful, somebody will come along with a copycat product. Lines of things that are conceived out of thin air - like Beanie Babies - have a certain amount of protection built in. Mattel can't make a doll thats too close to what a Ty looks like and call it it a 'Beanie Buddy' - they'd get hauled into court. (Still this sort of thing happens all the time). With lighthouses models, its a little different. They're copies of something that exists in the real world, so naturally any two company's models of the same light will look pretty much the same, up to a point. But you usually don't expect one company to cannibalize itself.

Ok Ok - this is getting long, and I hear the "if you wanna invest, buy stock" mewlers approaching. (Quickly donning my kevlar fogtender hat - why do you think I moved to the FSB - vbg). I collect HL LEs (present tense) cause I like 'em - but I also liked (past tense) what made 'em different from the CSCs and Leftons - namely that they had a strong value component derived from their uniqueness - the thing that set HL apart from the others (limited availability + quality + desirability). The constant repetition of the same thing by the same company (OEs of LEs, whether GLOWs or Minis) destroys some of the uniqueness of the Collectible Limited Editions on the basis of which BY originally pitched the series.

You might disagree with me, but the marketplace doesn't. Extremism in the defense of Collectibility is no vice. LOL!

Regardless of your view, I'll surely enjoy your reply. Now, where are those little sandwiches.

Rgds,
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/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 11-20-99).]

Well folks, I've been down this road before with Dept 56 and learned a valuable lesson. If you like a product-buy it and enjoy it, but don't think that for one moment that the company producing that product is doing you the consumer a favor or really cares all that much about what you think. They are in business to make money; actually to make lots of money. As I have stated before: If we will buy it, they will make it.(be it collectible,a Collectible, or giftware) This is not a knock against HL or Y&A or any other company, its just reality in today's collectible market. So as I have said several times before: If you like what Harbour Lights is producing, buy it and enjoy it and don't worry about the company, the secondary market, or the future value of the product. If you don't like it, don't buy it.(But you can bet that somebody else will- and the company knows that)
Well enough of my rambling here.
Let the "MINI WARS" and the "GLOW WARS" continue!!


"TheLightkeeper"

Well Tim - I can agree with you about the "Glows" (& probably the minis). All you have to do is look at what has happened to the Secondary market values of Coquille (LE) and the "Southern Belle" LEs since HL issued GLOWS. Just to prove the trend, look at the upward movement of prices on the only LE "Belle" that to this point in time has no Glow - Ocracoke. Same thing happening with Portland Head & and most of the others.


Richard Weaver
One of the Smoky Mtn. Flame Keepers

I wish I knew where those cheap southern belles are that dropped in price on the secondary market because of the issuance of Glows. Maybe I missed something somewhere but I haven't seen the price drop on those pieces since I started collecting just over two years ago. It seems to me the prices have gone up.

What do you say guys...lets get Harbour Lights to stop making glows and we'll smash all the ones we have at the next reunion. The prices for the LEs should skyrocket. That way there our collection's value will double overnight or even may triple. Just remember, we all have to agree with this. We can't allow one Glow to escape. It doesn't matter that the guy with a small collection will never be able to afford the LE of his or her favorite light. They can always buy the LLOM or the proposed salt & pepper shaker with matching coffee cup, creamer, and sugar bowl.

What's the motto in New Hampshire? "Give me LEs or give me death?"

Bob

PS: I would find it hard to give up my retired Glows because they are actualy LEs by definition...lol!

Bring her 90 degrees to port and prepare to fire another round!

>>Maybe I missed something somewhere but I haven't seen the price drop on those pieces since I started collecting just over two years ago. <<

I don't think the previous post said anything about prices dropping. The appreciation curve for Belles with matching GLOWs has basically flat-lined. I don't know what you paid, but I do not see where prices have gone up for these, certainly not over the last two years. I am rather surprised to see St. Augustine going for around $400, thats 20%-25% off its peak. At the moment, Ocracoke is now the highest priced Belle ($475++) It has gone up dramatically, and as Richard points out, its the only non-GLOW Belle.

>>It doesn't matter that the guy with a small collection will never be able to afford the LE of his or her favorite light.<<

HL shoulda started with a much higher edition size if they wanted to make sure everyone could afford their "Hand Numbered Limited Editions" - or not place any limit on production. But I don't think it was their goal. I think they are extremely happy a secondary market developed and prices went up - thats an indication they successfully introduced a line of Collectibles - which I believe was exactly their goal. Having achieved it, they have gone on to exploit it and, to an extent, abandon it.

And you make a very good point Bob, your so-called 'Retired Open Editions' are effectively LEs. Maybe the straightforward thing for Y&A to do is drop the phony LE OE distinction, stop numbering any models, while keeping all edition sizes open. I will draw the line however at advocating what some in this forum may endorse, namely a social economy where everyone has the right to afford everything. LOL!

>>What's the motto in New Hampshire? "Give me LEs or give me death?"<<
You're thinking of Patrick Henry. He's often misquoted. What he *really* said was 'Give me the statue of Liberty or give me Death'.

Broadcasting Live from the FSB,
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/im

Sean-

They wouldn't be HLs if they were released in "little blue boxes with Boston Harbour on them." They'd be something else!

Real HLs have Portland Head on them!

Maybe this might have a bearing on the MINI WARS....

Jakers (This is where I just drop out of this, it was just driving me nuts seeing that!)

I agree with you Tim, as I frequently do.

One thing HL should never have done is number the OE's. They could stop doing it now, too. Not numbering the OE minis is a step in the right direction.

Many excellent points have been made throughout these discussions, but the one thing which keeps coming back to my mind is this:

For my growing collection there is no substitute for the LE's. I readily admit that the GLOW Key West for example, is technically better than the LE version. It's prettier and a LOT cheaper. HL just keeps getting better and better.

However, the GLOW will never be able to replace the LE for me. The desirability and mystique of the LE cannot be fulfilled for me by GLOW. No matter how pretty and cheap it is, it's still not the LE.

I will collect the LLs but do believe that the GLOWS do "hurt" the LE secondary values.

I guess one could now say that the "Belles" are depressed in their values. If anyone cares to check recent Ebay completed auctions, they will find some interesting things about the belles, Portland Head & others. I see just today "no bids" on Hilton Head @ $300.00 and St. Simons @ $239.00

Gay

Here’s another plausible explanation for the observed Ocracoke effect:

Assume for a moment that there is a very limited pool of people willing and able to buy a LH model for $300+. Assume also that, for any number of reasons, Ocracoke was the last of the Belles to be acquired by a significant number of these people. I don’t think that either of these assumptions is unthinkable, and some might agree that they are both quite possible.

Having already purchased the other Belles, this limited pool of willing and able people focuses their attentions on completing the series. This could explain the price rise for Ocracoke. It could also explain why the other Belles’ prices have plateaued.

Sellers might have come to expect $500 for a St. Augustine based on a few (or even many) actual sales while this limited pool of people was actively seeking St. Auggies. Now that the willing and able buyers at that price have turned their attentions elsewhere (Ocracoke, perhaps), the sellers might continue to list St. Auggie at $500. After some time of stagnant sales, some less patient sellers with considerable inventory might lower their prices gradually. On e-Bay or elsewhere, individual sellers in need of cash might sell considerably below this $500 level. If sellers (individuals or dealers) begin to panic at the apparent price drop, this could lead to a fairly precipitous drop in the average asking price. Also, as potential buyers come to expect an under-$400 St. Auggie and refuse to pay more, the apparent price drop becomes a real one.

All of this, I admit, is purely conjecture. However, I believe that it is *at least* as plausible at the evil-GLOW theory. Because two things happen at the same time does not necessarily mean that they are related. There was once a study done on the relation between the number of storks nesting in a small city in Europe and the number of human children born there. Over a period of several years, one could see that as the number of storks nesting in the city increased, so did the number of newborn human children arriving on the scene. Let’s not confuse correlation with cause-and-effect.


------------------
-Art

Hey Art, ...I need a St. A's...do you know where I can find a deal on one?

Bob

Art, nice to see you're finally giving plausibility to what you call 'the evil GLOW theory'. Fwiw, I think there's as much to be said for stalling appreciation as for a drop in price. Either could be correlated to a drop in the perception of exclusivity.

And for Bob - guess it depends on what you call 'a deal' - what are you willing to spend? I think the St. Augustine GLOWs are available for around $60-$70, but you might find them cheaper on eBay.

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/im

I guess that I am one of the really strange people here - I buy and collect HLs and LHs because I LIKE them. (I know I am repeating myself from other postings, but I just felt like saying it again.) It is nice to know that some of my HLs have appreciated in value, as of this instant in time. However the next instant in time may see the value fall. So What. I did not start 'collecting' HLs to fund my retirement, which is to far away to worry about right now. I have seen too many times the value of 'collectables/collections' drop from the sky. I used to tape a home shopping show late at night for next day watching to catch the prices of Beanie Babies for a friend. We watched some of them start selling for $300-$500 each. Then they went for 5 for $300, all the way down to 10 for $100. What happened to the market there? We saw the same Beanies at toy shows for $5 each.

A personal experience - I had 10 years worth of Playboy magazines, from the early 1980's to the 1990's, that I tried to sell 3 years ago when I moved from Fl. to Mi. All the price guides said the prices ranged from $5 to $50 an issue. The best I was offered, and sold them for, was $2 an issue. The market where I lived was overloaded with old Playboy magazines and therefore they were worth nothing. It still was better to sell them than to pay to move them.

Tim - your example of the Chevy being renamed and sold in different ways reminded me of a company I worked for that really did that. A check reader/sorter for banks had hardware and software problems and sales were slow. The company renamed the model number and changed the color of the outside and introduced it as a new version. Sales jumped for awhile until the banks caught on and then they returned to "new" models for refunds. They company lost a lot of money.

I guess I have rambled on and on. So I will stop for now.

------------------
Jim

Dr. Who ?

Tim, I don't think I've ever denied the plausibility of the EGT, I just think that it is not the most likely scenario nor the most threatening factor to the value of HL LEs. Not by a long shot, imnsho.

We can go on about this ad nauseum (as if we haven't already [chuckle]), but here is the crux of the issue: There are multiple perceptions and opinions. None have been proved, and likely, none can be proved. Neither major position is quite untenable, yet neither is really justifiable, either. I guess that is what makes this topic so much fun to argue about (everyone is having fun, are they not?) I suppose that if either position had been proved, we would have stopped yapping about this a long time ago.

Vive la difference!

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-Art

Artster, in my first post in this thread I was actually hoping to turn the discussion away from issues of monetary value. Though based on the replies, I see I haven't been too successful - or not read carefully enough. ;-> Dollars have never been a strong concern although it is useful as one of the objective yardsticks available to us for assessing this notion of 'Collectible' which, over the months (years) I've been attempting to both observe and come to grips with.

For the sake of argument, we can throw out the monetary value factor. However, even if we do this, I continue to believe the creation of what I've now taken to calling 'knock-offs' has had an deleterious effect on the value of what I believe HL had has their original goal. (Besides making money, that is.) Their early brochures reference 'Hand Numbered Limited Edition Collectibles'. I think they attempted to create original, exlusive, high-quality lighthouse models to be valued for their detail and their uniqueness. And in fact they did this, and continue to do it quite well. (Bravo) Unfortunately, imo, the creation of unlimited edition knock-offs (regardless of quality) reduces the exclusivity and uniqueness of their original efforts. I see this as breaking a trust with those who bought into the line based on its original intent. (Or at least what I perceive to be that intent.)

I'll grant you that buying into the exclusivity of a manufactured-rarity is a tenuous proposition. For example, one has to have some faith that the manufacturer won't turn around and sell 10 times the number of copies they originally promised they would make. I've got to wonder what BY's answer would be to a fledgling collector about to shell out $63 for Boston Harbor in 1991 who asked if he would eventually be making near copies that actually were a bit nicer and less expensive. If BY had said "yes we plan to launch a line of Open Editions that will include one very similar to the model you're buying", I wonder what that new collector would think about the whole idea of 'Hand Numbered Limited Edition Collectibles'. (And I'm not wondering whether the new collector would have bought it anyway.) Let's not overlook the cachet of exclusivity, and unique quality are part of what helped sell the piece at $63 rather than at $33.

Could HL have been successful if they'd 'kept the flame' with the Collector? Are there enough die-hard lighthouse model collectors who would buy 5500 copies of East-Backwater Shoals as quickly as they snapped up Portland Head? Do the knock-offs have to be hand-numbered and so close in size as to compromise the exclusivity and uniqueness in the Limited Editions in order to meet what some see as their purpose - to attract new collectors while providing giftshops something to sell? If Y&A had managed to come up with a different line of models that were successful, would they feel the need to make HL knock-offs?

On a different note, Art, your 'counter-plausibility' example is a good one. (I fully understand the Humean notion of casuality issue, yet remain unrepentent in my Newtonian approach to medium size objects. [vbg]) Nonetheless your example seems to - at the same time- work at a higher level than the issue I'm addressing, and also include it. Your example draws on the lack of demand, but fails to account for it. I think the cheap attractive knock-offs may, to some extent, squelch the flame of desire in the person who is both fervent over having "All the Belles" and yet hesitant about spending several hundred dollars for just one.

"Look dear - here's a nicer one for just $60". Who knows how many marriages have been 'saved by the Glow' LoL!.

Yap On,
__
/im

Hey Tim, ...Thanks anyways, but I already have a St. Augustine Glow in stock. I would like to find the LE for the right price though.

Do I sense an "anti-Glow" conspiracy brewing? Maybe it's time I put them back in their boxes and secured them in the vault before I'm taken prisoner and forced to listen to "Hip-Hop" music until I agree to rid myself of my beloved treasures.

Got to Glow...catch ya later!

Bob

Sorry, guess I’m in a rut. (g, set monetary value mode="OFF")

I agree with your assessment of what HL appeared to begin with as their original intent and acknowledge the 'cachet of exclusivity', but largely disagree with the reduced exclusivity / breaking trust bit. I have no issue at all with a line of 'Hand Numbered Limited Edition Collectibles', nor with many individuals buying in *because* of this capital-C factor. Heck, you can even take all the numbers off of the GLOWs, if it would make the capital-Cs feel better. That wouldn't bother me at all.

Frankly though, I wish the GLOWs were even larger in size. I think that being obviously different (even if aesthetically 'better') than the originals should be enough to separate the 'Collectible' HLs from the mere GLOWs (especially if the latter didn't have a serial number). I do agree that if the GLOWs were similarly sized to the LEs (which they are not, imo), their presence and often superior good looks might 'squelch the flame of desire' that you speak of to some degree. That wouldn't bother me personally, but since my recent sensitivity training (vbg), I understand where the capital-C crowd may be coming from on this. I think that I would actually purchase a St. Augustine GLOW if it stood an honest 7 or 8 inches tall. I *do not* think that would keep me from wanting or eventually purchasing the LE, but it might set me back a week or two.

I think that a person ready to plop down 400 clams for a LH model should be sophisticated enough to tell the difference between the LE and the OE, even if they were closer in size, all hand numbered and looked nearly identical. And if they couldn't tell the difference, then they shouldn’t be allowed to have that much money in the first place .



I'm glad *you* do. I don't know my Hume from my Kant. I just make this stuff up as I go along.


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-Art

>>. I just make this stuff up as I go along.<<

No, really? LOL. Sorry... guess I shoulda added "Professional driver on closed course. Do not think about this stuff at home." [vbg]

Hume sez: no nexus between cause and effect. When we consistently observe B after observing A, an association [aka correlation] of ideas is created. Saying 'A causes B' is simply a result of the habit of this regular association. I call this a 'hardening of ideas'. [g] Though current neural learning theory seems to lend it some support.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Cheap Southern Belles? Great! Can someone please tell me where to get St. Augustine at retail? I haven't seen it for less then $350

Bob & Jeff: Not too many months ago it was getting difficult to find a St. Augustine for under $500.00. Now they appear relatively frequently in the $375-425 range. This I think is what is meant by "cheap", although I don't think that anyone actually used that term here to describe the LEs.

Prof. Tim: Thanks for the elucidation. To clarify, I'm not saying (as Hume seems to be)that there is no such thing as cause and effect, I just caution against confusing C&E with mere coincidence.



I thought that you left academia years ago! LOL



------------------
-Art

Regarding This Little Light of Mine...by Harbour Lights.

What would happen, do you suppose, if David Winter came out with "This Wee Whimsical English Cottage 'o Mine?" Or Hummel came out with "Zis little Fraulein of Meine?" I think collectors would go through the roof. I say this without a lot of knowledge about the collectible industry, but there must be a reason why these two *collectible* companies stay focused on their core competency.

I no longer recognize the Harbour Lights company I discovered in the summer of 1996. Sure, I envy them because they're probably richer than skunks, but I'm also upset because the implied promise they made to collectors in 1991 has been brutally broken. TLLOM will end up on the same shelves as the LE's and the GLOW's. Just what we need...to dilute the line even more.

The broke their own ground rules and a good deal of my trust in the process. Damn good thing their product is so nice.

I'm just auditing this course but I have not noticed the Belles to dramatically decrease from the 'Greenbook' Malaysian price. Oracoke is definitely more in demand. Anyone who thinks these HLs are cheap at 6x > than their original price must be sitting on a couple of extras!(Don't you wish!)
I do think that some people(not collectors) are cashing in their LEs for nicer Glows, and using the difference for other things.
I have noticed a lot a former collectors liquidating their collections for various reasons the past 9 months. Bargains can be had by buying many LEs at the same time for a large sum of $.

"Sure, I envy them because they're probably richer than skunks, but I'm also upset because the implied promise they made to collectors in 1991 has been brutally broken."

Well Bill, I wasn't around in 1991 to see the implied promise (I started later than you did) but I doubt the Youngers will ever be "richer than skunks" because they seem to give to much away. Between the contributions they make to Lighthouses and other nautical groups and what they give back to their core group of collectors through various contests, drawings and giveaways, they don't seem real interested in hoarding their money. I hope that they are well paid for their work, and that the company is a huge success. If it is not and they go out of business, we all lose.
The Youngers have been most generous to me at every event that I have attended and I cannot believe how much they give away at events like the reunion and Rosemont. I am also sure that there are many donations that we are unaware of. So, this weekend I am including Harbour Lights in the things I am thankful for because I think they work hard to make life a little more enjoyable.
Jim
Johnson

I've been away from this board for about a month and I am not surprised to see this debate still raging. I seem to have lost much of my collector's passion. Is it OEs or have I run out of space and can't see any need to buy more to store? I still have some that I would like to buy, but more that I am thinking of selling. It seems most of the lights on Ebay are not even getting bids or are selling at a discount. Not much point in buying extra lighthouses only to have to sell them for less at a later date. That is good for new collectors and bad for speculators who hope to buy extra pieces for either profit or trade value.
I was fortunate enough to be able to attend both reunions. I found the Youngers to be very generous and genuine. They can make more money than Bill Gates for all I care.
If I had more room I'd buy the Glows of the lights I was interested in. They are very well done. I plan on buying the Coquille Glow to keep my west coast collection complete. My vote, however, goes with those who feel the Glows demean the LEs and detract from the line as "collectibles."

From the defender and explainer of all things Y and A...



Not good examples, Bill. David Winter cottages were introduced by John Hine & Co. They went bankrupt and the line is now one of the "Enesco" lines. You know them. They market Preciousmomentsmarysmoomoosmickey&cobeatrixpotterlilliputlanecherishedteddiesandmore.

And you like Berta Hummel's characters? You could always find the most popular figures in three sizes. I suppose that doesn't dilute their line in your eyes? There are now a choice of lines but there's no doubt the profit margins on these pieces are WAY above Harbour Lights. Try finding any Hummels for under $150 -- even the little ones.




I'm looking at the 1991 introductory brochure. "Affordable fine art hand-numbered limited editions" it says on the cover; that still describes the core of the line. Inside copy includes "Handmade and handpainted by skilled craftsmen." Except for the now politically incorrect 'craftsmen' that still holds true no matter whether you're talking LEs, GLOWs, or LLOM. Another copy bit: "Whether you select one piece or the entire collection, Harbour Lights will be a valuable addition to your personal treasures." Is there some implied promise that they will only make LEs? Had you bought the entire collection in 1991, the cost would have been about $1,000. That would have included an Original Cape Hatteras ($5,000), Burrows OR ($1,700), Coquille River ($2,900), and perhaps Split Rock MI ($3,600). 4 of 17 with a net value of about $13,000.

You and I found Harbour Lights about the same time - summer of '96 - but GLOWs were available starting in 1994 with Cape Hatteras. Perhaps it was your misunderstanding of what you were seeing.



I don't envy them because of their wealth -- I have no knowledge of wealth. I envy them because they started with very little other than an idea and managed to create through hard work and perserverance a collecible line with thousands of devoted followers nationwide, raising the collective consciousness of the importance of lighthouses -- while still remaining a family owned and operated business.

"Richer than skunks"? I'm not sure why you think skunks are rich, Bill, but I'd say any riches they have are well-deserved. From my observations they have shared the 'wealth' and continue to share whatever wealth Harbour Lights has brought them widely, benefiting lighthouses and charitable groups.

They don't owe us any accounting of their privately-owned business.

And if your trust is broken, but you're still buying, then your trust doesn't seem all that important to you.

[This message has been edited by JChidester (edited 11-24-99).]

Well said St. John. You've echoed my sentiments and thoughts on this subject perfectly. I frequently have trouble finding the words to adequately express my views and experiences. Thank you.

St. John, once again you so eloquently put into words what my ranting would not be able to convey.

I personally don't believe that Younger and Associates owes me anything but the ability to purchase the highest quality lighthouse statue available. I don't remember seeing anywhere that the pieces I buy today will be worth double next year. I haven't read anywhere that they are turning down the right to expand their market in order to make my collection more valuable or unique. IMHO they are in business to make money and were fortunate enough to create a company that produces a product that they find so rewarding and meaningful. More power to them.

Joanne

Ditto to St. John, and Joanne. As I have said before in other forums, we would sometimes like to believe that Younger and Associates started HL's to make us happy. But in all reality they did it to make money. Now that some what means that they have to make people happy to make money. That I believe they do by making high quality statues. But in doing that I don't believe they ever promised that the LE's would be the only thing out there. I am glad that they are considering the little lighthouses, because there are a lot of people that would love to own some lighthouses, or give them as gifts, but can't because of the limited funds they have. They never have a thought of collecting for the possibility of reselling. I can see them now, they see the LE's, or GLOW's sitting on the shelf, check the price, and leave knowing that there is no way they could justify that kind of price for themselves, much less a gift. But if the mini's are there for $10 or so, it now gives them a chance to jump in and start collecting or giving something they never would have been able to do. I am glad they are trying to sell to those who can't afford or justify the higher priced line. I also think that is not going to affect the "collectors" of the LE, because they will always be looking for those HL's that are limited. Walmart is as big as it is because everyone can afford to go in there and shop.
Way to go Harbour Lights!

Rusty

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 11-26-99).]

I'm certainly not the first person to object to Harbour Lights' open-edition shenanigans. Remember when Alcatraz, Mukilteo, Fire Island, and other pieces came out originally as open editions? There was a great outcry by limited-edition collectors (and this was before I was even aware of the company). So clearly, a big part of the allure of the line is the scarcity of its sculptures, and there are many of us who want that scarcity respected.

With dozens of GLOWs, the spyglass series, and now TLLOM (and what's next, do you suppose?), HL now looks very much like...gasp...Scaasis. You can have a big lighthouse...or a medium lighthouse...or a small lighthouse..or a super small lighthouse. And if you supersize it you get a large order of fries.

Like I said, John, I'm not an expert in the collectible industry (in fact, the "Survival Guide" by Jim Rutherford indicates that there are many like me...guys who never would have given *any* collectible line a second glance until HL came along). My perception is that Hummels are limited-edition, expensive, and have a very healthy secondary market. I wasn't aware of the fate of David Winter.

And although my trust in the company isn't what it used to be, I still love lighthouses and they still make the best models of them.
The people who run the company are wonderful people...I just question the soundness of their marketing strategy. Time will tell. If TLLOM attracts new Society members and limited-edition buyers, then Hallelujah.

"Back Seat Driver" Billy

Bill, how do you feel about the number of LE's issued this year? I was wondering if the creation of open lines would reduce the amount of LE's. I could not keep up with all the pieces released this year. It will probably be two years before I get around to purchasing the five or six pieces that I would like to have. Maybe if the company can be more diverse, they can release eight WOW's instead of four WOW's, and eight or ten okay LE's.

Joanne

Joanne, If TLLOM helps the company reduce the number of LEs they need to produce each year to turn a profit, then I'm for it. Can you believe that they only made 7 per year in 1993 and 1994 (and NO Society or Christmas pieces!)?? I wouldn't recommend they go to that extreme, but 9-12 pieces might be about right. And yes, I would expect a higher "Wow!™" ratio.

Sean, thanks for your perspective on this hulabaloo. As an employee at a company that grew WAY too fast (at exactly the same time HL was growing too fast) and is now paying for it, I know that recognizing flaws in company logic can be very slow. Once you get a few home runs (winning products) under your belt, you start to feel invincible. When sales slow down or new products flop, you think of them as the exception, rather than the rule. Wrong assumption. I think Harbour Lights will right itself. But, IMO, it took them a couple years to recognize that their reach had exceeded their grasp, so we have things like 4,000 and 6,500 edition sizes and mass retirements.

If they'd only read these forums, they could have avoided the whole mess. We are the lonely, brilliant backseat pioneers, all of us.

On several occasions I've heard BY claim they introduce so many pieces each year because they need to keep product on dealers shelves. But with edition sizes at 10k - that obviously has not been a problem. They need to make up their mind, because the combination of a large number of new releases with high editions sizes is not healthy.

There simply aren't that many lighthouse model collectors with enough disposable dollars.

In 1996 HL released over 25 full size models that weren't knock-offs. Over 18 in 1997 and over 25 in 1998. To absorb the releases from those three years alone, the collecting community is asked to spend over $50 million dollars at retail.

To me the fundamental issue remains this - the number of regular purchasers of Harbour Lights Collectibles does not appear to be increasing. The growth in number of Collectors that did occur was based on a Collectible with a lower edition size (5500) which could legitimately claim some exclusivity and uniqueness. A 10k edition size, coupled with an unlimited amount of hand-numbered knock-offs virtually indistinquishable from 'the real McCoy' has almost reduced the line to a commodity status. Tumbling secondary prices reflect this - the perception of value that helped create demand has been diluted to a point where it is simply not enough to sustain the line as a Collectible. This commoditization reflects HL's attemtps to reach a broader market, but they are not gaining a deeper market. In other words, the rationale for purchase of the core group of 2500-4000 folks on which the initial success was built is compromised in the quest for volume. After 8+ years I don't believe the number of core collectors has increased past 4500, nor has anything I've seen led me to think it will increase in the near future. The audience to which HL has now turned does not purchase with the consistency of the core group of collectors, nor is this audience concerned with purchasing 'Collectibles'.

I say, if HL wants to return to their roots of creating Collectibles instead of commodities, then pick any Two:
1) drop the GLOW line,
2) lower the edition size back to 5500,
3) raise LE prices by 50%.

If they aren't interested in that business model, then give up the effort to have it both ways by ceasing the announcement of edition sizes and no longer numbering any pieces. Pull models from production when they are no longer revenue producers. There's no shame in making the best giftware lighthouse models. Based on most of the opinions expressed in these Forums, it appears this approach would have no effect on sales to people who: a) buy what they like, and, b) don't really concern themselves with the appearance of exclusivity that leads to appreciation.

Cheers,
__
/im
[This message has been edited by JTimothyA (edited 12-01-99).]

1 and 2 are ok but not 3. If HL were to raise the price by 50% it would be sayonara for me. I simply could not justify spending that additional amount.

What about limiting edition numbers to a specific time frame, say one or two years, rather than a number of pieces?

Tim, (TIC) Dittos

Tim, How about a number 4 & 5 ?

4. adding a Beanie lights series

5. adding a POK'EMON "fights all Lighthouse Foes" series.

It must be getting late, past my bedtime Or maybe I forgot my medication! Pick any two !!

Richard Weaver
One of the Smoky Mtn. Flame Keepers

Here's my pick any two!

1. Make and release, no more than a dozen Limited Edition lighthouses each year. This would include the Society and the Christmas lighthouses.

2. Lower the Limited Edition size to 6500, I feel this is what it probably should have been raised to in the first place and all lighthouses produced be that amount, no more, no less. (except for Society pieces and Reunion pieces)

SaintWackoPaul '
Keep the Flame

Gee, as I was reading Tim's thoughts on the subject, I started to get concerned. I was agreeing with him. Last week I changed my political party affiliation and now I agree with Tim. But then I got to 1, 2, and 3. I like GLOWS and if they must go, I can live with that. But raise the price another 50 percent. That's when I would have to either limit purchases to two per year or stop all together. I think Paul's ideas are the better choice. An edition size of 6500 seems reasonable and no more than 12 releases in a year. I could happily live with that.

Joanne

>>Gee, as I was reading Tim's thoughts on the subject, I started to get concerned. I was agreeing with him. <<

Can't the doctor give you something for that? LOL!

As far as 1,2,3 goes - the idea was to pick any two. Personally I prefer a combination of 1 & 2. Though Richards #5 is appealing.

Rgds,
Fogachu

I did pick any two! I picked my two!

Saint WackoPaul '
Keep the Flame

Interesting topic folks! You have examined it to death and I found it great reading. I do think that we may have missed one reason for the drop in apreciation for the older LE's. QUALITY! Compare a "Hudson River" with a "Cape Blanco" for instance. Which would you buy if you knew nothing about collectibles. Those of us with Blancos are competing not only with a larger addition size, but also with a more attractive product. I say let Y&A alone. If it were my company, I would have grabbed as much as I could too. They HAVE learned a lesson and are responding. In the meantime, enjoy the new products - or not. - Easy

Sorry folks "Hudson Athens" - Easy

Extremism in the defense of Collectibility is no vice.

whatta great line... :-)

T3RP

e-bay, Bobster, e-bay.

Ponce

Hilton Head

Here's some recent final prices! Check out Bullock at bottom of list!

Harbour Lights Ocracoke NC No. 135 No Reserve
$340.00
23
Oct-02 18:44

Harbour Lights Hilton Head #136
$305.00
19
Oct-05 09:48

Harbour Lights Southeast Block Island #128
$300.00
14
Oct-05 09:46

Harbour Lights Ponce de Leon #132
$291.01
11
Oct-05 09:43

Harbour Lights Matched Lighthouse Stamp Set
$285.00
6
Sep-26 15:59

Harbour Lights #604 New Point Loma Reunion Pc
$284.09
9
Sep-25 20:14

Harbour Lights "Bell Rock" Pharos Coll. RARE!
$284.00
16
Oct-08 16:30

Harbour Lights # 145 Assateague VA (Mold #1)
$255.05
9
Oct-07 16:43

Harbour Lights HL #139 Barnegat Light, NJ
$225.00
1
Oct-07 06:54

Harbour Lights 108 BURROWS ISLAND - RARE
$222.50
4
Oct-06 16:28

HARBOUR LIGHTS BIG BAY 1st. Christmas 1995
$202.50
3
Sep-28 13:01

HARBOUR LIGHTS HL117 BOSTON HARBOR LIMITED
$170.00
1
Sep-24 16:55

$245 Navesink Harbour Lights, NIB, IDA23
$152.50
18
Oct-08 20:24

Harbour Lights Burrows Island, Wa. HL 108
$150.00
3
Oct-08 14:08

Harbour Lights Diamond Head Lighthouse
$150.00
1
Oct-06 15:32

Old Point Loma CA #105 retired Harbour Lights
$149.95
1
Oct-07 21:43



Harbour Lights #108 Burrows Island WA
$147.50
4
Oct-07 16:58

Harbour Lights Navesink, NJ Retired NR
$129.99
1
Oct-06 18:58

Harbour Lights-Assateague #145 LTD RET.SIGNED
$128.50
6
Sep-30 17:13

Harbour Lights #116 Castle Hill RI
$126.51
11
Oct-08 14:13

Harbour Lights Bullock Pt RI #24 of 5500!!
$123.50
16
Oct-07 18:49

From the looks of things, HL's (the older ones) seem to be doing very well on the market. Bullocks Point mustered that price because of the # (24). Even I can't figure that one out as they're readily available on the market at retail and in some cases, below retail on eBay.

Nice to see the prices of the early ones holding up nicely. Thanks for the run down on the latest prices, Bob. I've been watching some of them and missed most of those you mentioned.,

Bert