Ebay hmmmmmm! Part II

In the last episode, Terry Barfield writes:

Part one can be reviewed at: http://www.lighthousekeepers.com/forums/Forum28/HTML/000063.html

Your humble cruise director,

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-Art

I can't remember seeing the number of HLs this high on eBay. I just checked and the count on deck is 620 under harbour lights, and 26 under harbor lights. A total of 646 pieces offered on auction. Sounds like a little "dealer dumping" to me.

Did anyone else notice the low starting bids on the person's HLs that only accepts payment through one on line service? He or she doesn't accept cash, checks or money orders. Kind of unusual I would say. It will be interesting to see how those auctions end up.

Bob

I don't remember high the count got to, but last year starting about this time the count was high until christmas

Yes, I think the count is extremely high also. But you know Christmas is coming so some people are selling for what they hope will be higher prices. There are also the Little Lights on ebay now.

Another observation is many of the HL's aren't getting any bids either during their auction period.

So is it dealer dumping? Who knows.

At least three of them are dealers (each dumping over 50 lighthouses on eBay right now) that I can figure out. In fact, one of them no longer is a dealer and bought extra stock just before informing Harbour Lights that they were changing the emphasis of their store away from collectibles. They are really shameless, I believe, to do this not only to Harbour Lights but also to you, the collectors.

I have stated this before and I will state it again, while on the surface it looks like a good deal to collectors buying at less than retail, it really hurts the value of your collection.

I won’t even go into the “they sign a contract with Harbour Lights agreeing not to sell below retail,” (integrity in honoring one’s word); however, in this one dealer’s case he knew he wasn’t going to have a contract when he dumped all of this stock for quick low profits.

In one of the other forums there is a thread where everybody posts what a great find they had…. Well, in this one collector’s opinion finding a discounted Harbour Lights lighthouse is not a great find at all. A great find is finding a 3 or more years retired lighthouse for retail, of course this happens only after the store recently cleaned out their back room and discovered it hidden under some things.

I know I am in a minority in feeling this way, but hey, that’s just one reason why I am…..

SaintWackoPaul

SaintWackoPaul......

My guess is you are correct you are in the minority. I ran a large distribution (dealer) business for alot of years. Harbour Lights has an obligation to all of its dealers to insure they (their dealers) adhere to their aggreements. Since they ( Harbour Lights)want to maintain this policy they need to do a better job of enforcement. There will always be dealers who will abuse this policy for a whole host of reasons...one of which is pier pressure from other dealers "dumping" inventory. You are also correct that this will affect the value of any collectors collection. But, Harbour Lights needs to improive their dealer selection process and enforcement policies. If i was a dealer and sitting on a bunch of lites right now and saw all the pieces being dumped on eBay i might want to join the bandwagon as well.I wonder why HL allows this to happen since generally it's always the same folks selling them. Incidently, One way of enforcement for HL is to buy back the dealers inventory. Must manufactures turn the other cheek when they see "dumping" taking place just to avoid buying back product.

Harbour Lights is monitoring sales on ebay and when individual sellers can be identified, they will get a call from Bill or Kim.

Once a dealer has committed to 'going out of business' and paid for their inventory, it's hard to convince them NOT to discount.

There have been occassions when Harbour Lights has bought back inventory even at retail.

It's not always easy to spot the dealers who have chosen to pack-it-in and retire. Some have been good HL dealers since 1991, and paid their bills - even hosted Bill a event a few weeks before unfurling the 'going out of business sale' sign.

I guess we can be thankful most of us are not in the retail business.I think i rather collect than try and sell.

Thanks for the information.

The flip side of the "dumping" problem is dealers that call themselves "secondary" dealers and charge inflated prices for pieces they bought to sell at retail. I had a lengthy conversation with one dealer I suspect was doing this. Her argument was if she wanted to make the investment and sit on the pieces, leave them to appriciate in the back room, then she should be able to get secondary for them. I guess you can see both points of view.
Personally, we buy Harbour Lights because we enjoy them. We enjoy when friends and family visit and want to hear stories about our visits to the lighthouses they're modeled after. As for as value, there have been quite a few we've had to buy at secondary prices, so when we can find a dealer breaking the rules and "dumping" them, We take advantage of it. It is nice to know that the value will go up, but to me that is just an added bonus. We don't plan on our lighthouse collection financing our retirement. (Althought the way the Stock Market's been lately......)
As far as dealer "dumping" or selling at secondary, like it or not thats just part of free enterprise, and try as they may, it's almost impossible for Harbour Lights to control.

Paul, I am in a different situation than you are and so I have a differing viewpoint. I do not disagree with your thoughts on Ebay and on "dumping", but I do offer a different tack.
You own an extensive collection, and have been collecting for some time. I, and others like me, are relative newcomers to HLs.
About a year ago, I started gettin' in to it and have gone from 15 to 80 LEs in that time. I have purchased from several dealers, R@R, and the marketplace. I have also purchased from Ebay. For the most part, all have been good sources.
None in my collection is a "heavy weight"(Okracoke, Key West, Portland Head Etc). I simply cannot afford them. I was, however, able to amass a nice curio full of HLs in a short time without getting a frying pan on the backside.
Paul, I love these little guys like you do, but I could have never gotten them without Ebay and the "dumping". Part of the fault of the lower value of some of the HLs belongs to Y&A. They made an error in increasing issue size to 10,000. Dealers couldn't get rid of them and needed the space. If you examine the prices of HLs on ebay, it shows that the models going for the lower value are NOT the heavies but rather the 10,000. The Ocracokes are holding their own and in many cases increasing in value.
In another part of the forum, Art discusses the BINs - same thing - most are the 10,000.
Paul, now that I have a larger collection, I too will hope for greater value and now that Y&A has decreased their edition size; I see a rosy future.
- Joe

Joe, all of what you say is well and good for you (you save money), but these people (dealers) signed a contract in good faith with Harbour Lights not to do this "dumping". What ever happened to keeping one's word?

The people that it hurts the most are the dealers that keep their word and their contract with Harbour Lights.

Bargains always have a cost and I feel very strongly (as most of the long time forum readers know) that the cost is a loss of integrity on these dealers’ parts (dumping dealers) and that is a very expensive cost IMHO.

Soapbox:

It is very easy for a person to tell….. a collector selling a Harbour Lights lighthouse at below retail…. from a dealer dumping Harbour Lights on eBay... buy from the collector. A person can still get the lighthouse at a good price and yet a person isn't supporting these dealers dumping. There are a lot of collectors that may need to sell their lighthouses… I would encourage buying from them (you probably will get a better cared for lighthouse to boot).

Paul L Brady

There certainly is no definitive answer to what is good and bad for the collectible. Imho the answer lies some where in between the two sides of the argument. Dealers are the first string of the battle which creates retirements. Then all of us collectors can say "Wahoo" another lighthouse retired naturally. Hmmm, Hmmm, not really, it only means that the number of lighthouses have been obligated to dealers. Now they get to sit and collect dust until we collectors buy them. Can you put a value on a collectible that is sitting there collecting dust? Imho, I don't think so. The darn things have to be sold to the collector. They have to become unavailable, hard to find, there has to be a "fever" to get that piece. I am not an advocate of discounting or unethical ignorance of the contracts dealers sign. The way I look at it if the dealer gets the old product off the shelves and into the collectors hands it is not 100% a bad thing. Imho, the value of a collectible has nothing to do with the amount of money you payed retail for it. It has to do with the demand of collectors looking for it. Nothing else! If lighthouses are all over available at retail or below retail on the shelves they aren't worth diddly. If the collectors have them, you want it and you can't find it then the "fever" grows and so does the secondary value.

I am not advocating discounting, all I am saying is that it's great for collectors to get a deal. It's just one of those many ingredients that keep the enjoyment in collecting. What we really always need to concentrate on is letting Harbour Lights know that the edition sizes need to remain small. Imho, we have already lost the battle with lighthouses that are available for year of production. Those lighthouses will probably never have a secondary value in our lifetimes.

I think Harbour Lights is doing a great job preventing as much discounting as they can. They can't catch them all. It would be unfare to expect them to. If your a dealer that is using the excuse of "well this dealer is discounting" well shame on you.

Imho, discounting is not hurting this collectible as much as the 8,000 through 10,000 edition sizes have. Heck the darn Statue of Liberty is probably over 20,000. I hope there aren't thousands of those in dealers wharehouses. We have GLOWS, keep the edition sizes small!!!

imho

Amen to keeping the edition size small!

"I am not advocating discounting, all I am saying is that it's great for collectors to get a deal. It's just one of those many ingredients that keep the enjoyment in collecting."

As long as the deal is from another collector, not from a dealer who is discounting. What really frosts me is a dealer who sells a very new and popular item on ebay at an inflated price inorder to make a few extra bucks. You can bet I handed that information in to HL! As Paul, I am bound by integrity... something that appears to be lacking this day and age. IMHO

Tim



[This message has been edited by Torchbearer (edited 12-06-2000).]

I just paid one of my usual casual visits to items matching harbour lights on eBay. I was surprised to find only 96 items listed. I checked the items rather quickly and saw three Fresnel Lenses for $91, $90, and $80. Two of them end soon and another one later tomorrow.

Could the bidding frenzy be over? Has everyone spent all their money on Christmas and don't have any left to bid on eBay?

Inquiring minds from the East Coast, where it has been as low as the single numbers in the morning and not much higher than the low 20's during the day (At least in isn't snowing here!), would like to know.

Please note my woodburner is going and the average temperature in my house is 75 degrees. Love that warmth!

Happy New Year!

Bob

Perhaps they all just found the Fresnels that are still for sale at retail price on the depot's web site! Another freeeezing east coaster!

Since we are still talking about Fresnel Lenses, I was just browsing through eBay and took special notice of three Fresnel Lenses being auctioned by "b.r.harding" of Chesterfield, Virginia. "B.R." has one bid of $135 (reserve met) on one of them, $90 (reserve not met) on another, and $99 (reserve not met) on even another. I guess the bidders don't know about the ones still available at retail at some HL Dealers.

Kind of makes you wonder how many Fresnels "B.R." might have. Do you think he might have a friend who is a dealer? Do you think he may have hustled around to his area dealers to buy them up at retail before anyone else? If he averages a nice $50 profit on each he is doing fairly well on something that is fairly new to the market.

That's the word from the East Coast where the temperature has risen to just above freezing today. It made me feel like putting on my shorts and Hawaiian shirt to enjoy a tropical cocktail on my deck.

Happy New Year!

Bob

Well here is the outcome of that sudden drop in the number of HL pieces up for auction on Ebay (since the pre-Chritmas glut). The total number of pieces are down but the prices have really shot up! Ordinary pieces are selling well and the retired pieces are going through the roof. Apparently, lots of new bidders with lots of Christmas cash!

Dear Bob,
If you want to know how b.r.harding gets so many fresnel lenses and add panama sets and hatteras on the move why don't you ask him.
Instead of talking about him why don"t you talk to him his e-mail address is very visible in all his ebay ads.

to answer one of your questions yes he has a dealer for his personal collection and he also buy from over 200 other dealers over the United States at retail and pays postage on everything he buys.

You could do the same thing if you had the intestinal fortitude to max out a credit card buying something someone else wants and sell it to them. Some call it a finders service some call it business.

remember ye who is willing to take the risk should be paid for it.

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The past two weeks have been a great time to get deals on ebay. I was able to get West Quoddy lr, Sandy Hook, and Split Rock 293lr for just slighty over retail, and a NPL mini yesterday.

Some call it price gouging.

B.R., thanks for the information. I will never buy a piece from you. You are reducing the supply on store shelves by purchasing them to resell to collectors who can't find them, because you have cornered the market. If the next fresnel lens has an edition size of 1,000 and I can't find one anywhere -- I'll do without.

Joanne



[This message has been edited by Joanne (edited 01-26-2001).]

Has any one but me noticed the number of newbies with long lists of HL's for sale on the market place?Bill O'Brien oseabee

Welcome to the Collector Forums "B.R." Okay I will ask you, "How many Fresnel Lenses do you have?"

I realize you're new to the forums so you may not realize what goes on here and how the people here share different views and other information about Harbour Lights and other lighthouse related subjects. Despite opposing views on a few subjects, everyone has remained friendly. The last thing needed is FR....(forum rage).

Questioning my "intestinal fortitude" to max out a credit card is probably not the best way of joining the group. I don't think charging HLs until your credit card is maxed out has anything to do with intestinal fortitude. In your case it seems to be a business decision and I only wish you would buy up all the other HLs that are lingering on the shelves so we would have more retirements. Just think about it for a moment....more retirements would make more pieces more valuable.

Well anyways, welcome to the Collector Forum, "B.R.". You'll find the folks here about as friendly as can be. Good luck with your business venture!

Bob

I don't see the need for anybody to jump on e-bay and pay over issue price. If you think a LE is going to sell out fast just call a few dealers and have one ordered or saved. This has worked for me and I have them all


don

Welcome to the forums B.R.

Joanne, I have to disagree with you, B.R. has not cornered the market. And I find it hard to call a price paid at auction "price gouging" since the buyer has set the price. Maybe the buyer(s) are not aware that the piece is still available at retail, maybe they are willing to spend the extra money for the convience of not spending an hour on the phone calling dealers around the country. But it is a free market and B.R. also risks not selling the piece (all though small in this case) at a profit and loosing money at the same time. And it is free enterprise that has built this country.

Mark

Well you are correct, Mark. No one is going to corner the market on any of the newly released HLs. There are just too many dealers who receive autoships reserved for regular customers. It would be impossible to buy up the majority of one model with the hopes of driving the secondary market price up.

If "B.R." makes a bundle selling the ones he has, maybe you can convince him to donate to the Zamboni Fund from the FSB. If not, he could at least bring a couple of dozen "Krispy Cremes". (Did I spell that right?)

Bob

Mark,

You're absolutely right in what you say. But, I will not be putting in any more bids on pieces by that seller. To me, that practice is much worse than dealers dumping pieces.

Joanne

Anyone notice that an Ocracoke on Ebay has had 137 visits on its counter in 2 DAYS. That just shows the popularity of this piece.


terry

I was fortunate to purchase an Ocracoke from my buddy, Randy Kremer, out there in Ohio. It still amazes me that this rather plain little light is such a hot item. I do display it and I'm glad to have it, but it isn't the best looking piece from my point of view.

Bob

Take the babies off the beach! There is a feeding frenzy in the Currituck Cove.I cannot believe that one could get that many bids.($237+ as of 2/17/01)
terry

It's up to $255.00 now as of the time of this posting. loni2u (the seller) will be laughing all the way to the bank!

Just looked at the MarketPlace and discovered that Melanie Pugh has a Currituck for sale and is asking $95.00. Gee... sure does pay to be a Forum member!!!

Tim - Keeping the flame lit...




[This message has been edited by Torchbearer (edited 02-18-2001).]

Any HL collector would be crazy not to take advantage of some of the super deals being offered at the CF's Marketplace. If you are building your collection, you can usually find some great deals on missing pieces. The prices at the Marketplace have been a lot more buyer-friendly than on the eBay Auction site.

Bob