Damaged lighthouses from shipping

Ya
I got hit with three badly damaged lighthouses.
They were damaged because of improper packing.
All they had around them was crinkled paper. They were not individually wrapped.
We could hear the lighthouses rattling as we moved the box into the house.

I asked the seller for full refund including shipping. I told him that I had already informed him to pack them in individual boxes inside a larger box and that he did a poor job of packing. He said I was rude to him and that it is not a perfect world and things happen. He wants me to pay for the shipping to send them back before he will give me a refund for the lighthouses; He will not refund me for shipping either way. I am talking a $60 to 70 dollar lost in shipping.

Shouldn’t the picture be enough for the seller to see the damage?
Since the seller did improper packing shouldn’t he be responsible for shipping?
Yes, I did pay for insurance.

Since the merchanised is damaged, the seller should paid for shipping it back.

It is so disheartening to see such beautiful lighthouses destroyed. Daniel, I can imagine how you felt when you heard the rattling. Unbelievable that someone should not realize that anything so fragile has to be packed with great, great care! I wouldn't even pack cheap dishes like that for a short trip from one house to another. Since it was his carelessness that ruined the lights, he should be responsible for all shipping and deal with the insurance.

I bought the original Southeast Block from a very unscrupulous guy a while back. Everything was packed super well but, as soon as I took the lighthouse out, I realized a chimney was gone and there was a huge white spot below it where there had been grass before. It was obvious that something was dropped on the chimney and bounced to the grass below and damaged that, too. The guy had the nerve to tell me that it was damaged in shipping because it was perfect when he shipped it. It was impossible for the light to be damaged since he packed it so well. It was in the original bag (plus foam and box and packed inside a well padded carton along with another light which was in perfect condition) and there were no chips, much less pieces in the bag. The guy told me he was sorry that "you are having such bad luck but you can get your money back; just contact the postal service". He refused to do anything about it. Later on, I sent the light to another forums member. He discovered that there was even more damage than I realized. He detected other damaged areas which had been painted over. This guy refuses to take me off his mailing list and periodically I get emails offering to trade tickets to some game or to participate in some sports pot which his kid has going. This guy sent a msg. to all the clubs saying his kids were in college and he needed to dispose of his collection.

I guess you bought these lights on eBay so you know how to deal with the situation but I can really feel for you. I wanted to cry when I saw the picture.

Daniel,

If you paid via PayPal, contact them with your complaint. They processed a chargeback to the seller and refunded my payment within 2 hours of my registering a complaint about the seller.

My husband sent something using USPS, insuring it as requested and paid for by the buyer. She received the parcel and emailed him to advise that the parcel and contents were damaged. He initiated the paperwork from this end and told her to keep the packaging, etc. until the post office contacts her per the instructions received at this end.

Even if you receive your money back because it was insured, you should still contact eBay and let them know of the seller's shoddy practices. Good luck and let us know the outcome.

Sandy

Friends--I just had a similar result with the seller "ICanSellOnline"..Is that the same seller you've dealt with Daniel? Obviously intentional mispacking, and tragic (?further) destruction of fine old lights...Thanks Frank Carbone, NELL

Same Guy

Would he be purposely packing them bad so to collect on the insurance?

He emailed me last night that I have three days for him to recieve the lighthouses if I want a refund.

I don't understand why the seller would want you to waste money shipping the destroyed pieces back to him. One would think that photos, and you probably should show the flag#'s, would be sufficient to show the destruction. Those pieces have no value because of the amount of damage. Why waste more money shipping them back? This is probably a ploy so the seller can say "I was willing to refund his money but he was not willing to send my pieces back."

Yes, you should receive a refund of your purchase price. As far as the shipping costs, well I wouldn't push that point or you will probably never recover anything from this seller.

Now comes the negative feedback fight. You leave it for him, he leaves it for you. It's a lose-lose situation. Cut your loss by recovering the purchase price and forget the shipping cost. Chalk that up to experience and move on.

Sellers like the one you're dealing with give eBayers a bad name. I've only received one damaged piece in over 300 eBay transactions. I notified the seller and she processed my insurance claim at her end and mailed me a check for the full amount including shipping. Now that is the way it should be done.

Anyone who receives damaged goods should immediately look for evidence that the box it came in was mishandled. Are there crushed corners? Are there punctures in the cardboard? Any evidence that the box may have been opened and then resealed (tough thing to prove)?

If there is no evidence of box damage then a thorough check of the interior packing is a must. Was a quality packing material used? Was the piece tightly wrapped to prevent it "bouncing" around? The contents of the box should not move if the box is lightly shaken.

Now comes the real test. If the piece was damaged in shipment you should find the evidence right in with the piece itself. Ventilator ball broken off? See if the pieces found match up with the obvious damage. Tree or bush damaged? See if the piece broken off fits back where it came from. Receiving a damaged piece with debris inconsistent with the damage to that piece is a definite sign of fraud on behalf of the seller.

Now comes the mind games. You know you've been taken and exactly how do you make the best of a bad situation. What's your best bet to recover your loss, or at least part of it.

Threats don't work, nor does the negative feedback thing. Negative feedback brings the same back from the seller. Your 100% positive feedback disappears and refects adversely on your eBay reputation. Most eBayers will just look at your percentage of positive feedback and not bother to read your individual feedbacks.

You can complain to eBay and see if their "rubber stamped threats" to the seller does any good. I find you're better off just trying to deal directly with the seller.

We all like to believe that anyone involved with HL collecting would be an honest and decent person. What has happend to Daniel should be warning to all of us to keep our left up.

Caveat emptor!

Bob

Sounds like this seller is a serial cheater. If he (or she) has shafted Frank and Daniel, how many others are out there? Situation also points out the significant weakness of the EBay feedback system. "You tell the truth and screw me and I'll lie and screw you back." A most significant weakness in the entire system in that it allows a party who has set out to do a poor job (either selling or buying) to damage the repuation of the wronged party as retaliation for telling the truth. This seller probably should be banned from EBay; don't you wonder how many more people will be cheated, how many more HL destroyed before they are done?

Not being overly familiar with the insurance claim routine, it also makes me wonder if they have over-insured the package, and will make additional profit on the loss? And, do their best to cheat the buyer out of their money along the way. Do they refund shipping expense as part of the claim? Can you say "talk to postal inspector"???

Situation may be one that highlights an instance where paying by PayPal could be to your advantage?

I have to agree with one thing that Bob said - the right thing to do would be to immediatley refund your payment (including shipping) and they can recover the loss from the insurance.

The really sad thing is that these are lights that would have travelled fine if they had been packed with even a little care and thought. Especially after Daniel had given his desire for how they should be packed.

I filed a claim with payPal and sent the pictures of the damaged lights to the seller. I have said no more to the seller, I am letting Paypal handle it.

This has made me a strong believer of paypal.
Because of this problem I think I will be an avid user of pay pal now.

I just recieve this email from "ICanSellOnline"

One thing I forgot to mention regarding PayPal--I always opt out of taking money from my checking account and ask that they charge the credit card I have on file with them. That does two things: I get airline miles or cash back and I have the credit card's muscle behind any transaction.

Sandy

You know, Daniel, the last communication you had from the dirt bag really highlights his lack of intent to give you a refund. It's too bad EBay does not retain the right to bar this type of seller. I think the email you received would easily show the lack of integrity on the part of the seller.

Also really makes you wonder if they not only intend to keep your money but also file a claim against insurance. Why not defraud both ends of the deal?

Yes
I used my credit card also.
I notified them also and they are sending me the forms.

You're assuming Dave that they weren't damaged in the first place before sent. A reason the seller wants them back again to ship again under another name from a different PO.

Good Point Bob
I Asked for more pictures but got no answer back.
I will have to check to see if all the pieces are in the box.

Daniel, I'm sure you will be successful with the credit card co. but it doesn't ease the anger or frustation. I had a similar deal with a shirt company in Washington St. I had ordered some patriotic shirts for some NELL members for the HL reunion and when they got to the embroiderer she called me and described the dirty stained shirts and said she didn't think I'd want them and also that they probably would not take the stress of embroidering. I notified the C.C. company and to make it short was told to ship them back in x # of days and I'd win the dispute. You can bet your bottom dollar they got back in plenty of time and I made him sign for the delivery to prove it. I hated to give in and pay the return shipping but it was a lot better than taking the bigger loss on the shirts. It was a sweet victory as this guy was a real dirt bag. Best of luck and please let us know how you make out.

Very good point, Bob. One of my daughters told me the same thing when I said something about sending the light back to the seller. In fact, I tried buying a SE Blk. light from this guy before, but he told me he had already sold it. It was probably the same light and he probably did file against the insurance and did not send a refund to the other buyer, as Dave suggested. I guess, in the future, I will buy only from forums members and hope someone, somewhere will offer a Southeast Block (at a time when I can afford it) and the two last thumbnails to complete my collection (Sandy Hook and Cape Hatteras).

I am truly sorry about the damage to your lighthouses. I was heartbroken one time when I knicked my Cape Meares while rearranging them all one time.

I have only bought older pieces from forum members. I know that this costs a little more sometimes when that "gotta have it" piece is a lot cheaper on Ebay but I have never had a problem and they have all arrived in perfect condition.

I had an experience recently where I got a damaged HL on ebay, returned it, and then found it on a shelf in a Cape Cod store. To coincidental?

Bob,

Found the damaged piece on a store shelf, or found an undamaged piece on a store shelf? (bear with me, tumor's acting up.)

Sandy

Found the damaged piece on a store shelf

What's the chance of that happening. Buy a lottery ticket and keep your fingers crossed.

Bob

Are the eBayer and the shop owner the same person? If that's not the case, the shop owner needs a check-up from the neck-up for purchasing and then offering for sale a damaged piece.

Sandy

You bet, Sandy! Unfortunately, for whatever reason, sometimes even the usually good dealers or their employees are not always upfront. When my last dealer was going through her closeout sale, I found a Three Sisters. I wanted to buy it but found that the railing around the lantern room was attached to the closest tree (and not to the lighthouse) and would actually slide over if the tree was moved. I pointed that out and requested another model. They found one for me in the stockroom but they put the bad one back on the shelf!

It seems that character-building has disappeared in this country. And I bet both dealers were first in line to bad-mouth Enron and all the other business people caught with their hands in the till.

Saw a cartoon recently showing a father and son talking sports and the father asked the son who was left as a role model now with all the scandals. The son replied "I think that's (role model) the parent's job."

We all have our "moments" and we can all justify our actions even when we know we're screwing up. I've learned to ask myself the question "How would I feel if my children knew I did whatever?" The answer to that question has made me get back on track to do the right thing. There is no "right" way to do the wrong thing.

For those of you having trouble with bad dealers that are purposely packaging their products "poorly" in order to cash in on the damage claims (i.e. ICanSellOnline), there is a way to stop these people.

If they ship by UPS, and call UPS to report the damage, they MUST give the customer's name and phone number. UPS will then call you to confirm the damage, because they will NOT refund any money to the shipper, unless there is evidence that the damage was caused by UPS delivery drivers. This is where you come in. Let them know how poorly it was packaged, that the pieces were not "cushioned" within the outer box. Let them know that you feel the damage was caused by the poor packaging, and that (even if you're fibbing a little) there is no damage to the outer box to indicate mishandling by the UPS drivers. Since you know this guy is a scam artist, carry the fib a little further by saying that the broken pieces were NOT in the box with the lighthouse. Indicate to UPS that he must have sent you an already-broken piece, and is trying to scam them. The ball is in your court. If UPS has ANY doubts about a claim, UPS will then send a driver out to check the package. If you've hidden some of the broken pieces, and show the UPS driver that there are pieces missing (and the poor packing job), the sender will never be able to prove otherwise.

If he sends by US Postal Service, you must call the post office that the package was sent from, and talk to the postmaster. Tell him the same little fibs that you would tell UPS.

Whether you have to deal with UPS or US Postal, let them know that this is a repeat offender, that you have proof that he has done this to another lighthouse collector (exchange phone numbers so that UPS or USPS can contact both of you that were scammed). After that, they should be able to flag this guy's name/account in case he files a future damage claim.

Jim,

You are a man after my own heart. Your analysis is fantastic. Can we assume that you have gone through this before? Thanks for the info.

bobo

Jim - I have no regrets as to hanging the guy from the highest yardarm or boiling him in oil but "little fibs" lead into bigger fibs and then come the lies and pretty soon you are dealing at his level. Tell the truth and it will get you as far as you need. You also will feel a lot better about the outcome and yourself. This is why I have always put the truth out when selling something and have never had a bad deal from any of the Forum members and also why I do not have any faith in buying from unknown sellers.

My feelings on this, so you do what you have to do.

AMEN, Brother Rich!

Dan

Have to agree with Rich. The web gets awfully tangled "when first we practice to deceive".

Okay
I appreciate all the advice on the forum and the emails. Besides instantly informing the seller that the Lighthouses were improperly packed and that I expected a full refund including shipping; I didn’t know what to do next but to ask for the support of my fellow collectors. You guys and Gals came through with a lot of good ideas.

The route I am following at this time is through paypal. I have filed against the seller that I want a full refund. I stated to Paypal that I feel that the damage was totally because the seller did not heed the instructions I gave him on how to properly pack the items. And if the seller wants the lighthouses back he must pay for the shipping. I have already order the Visa formwork against the seller and if Pay pal does not reward me the total amount I will then file a claim with Visa.

After this I will file a claim against the seller on ebay. My claim being that the seller sent me a email stating that I had three days from the date of receiving the lighthouses to get the item to him if I wanted a refund; and I have two days left to do so. His very own refund procedure that he has on his page states that the buyer can return the item within three days. Not that the seller had to receive it in three days. The seller also threatened me that if I gave him a negative feed back that he would give me one in return.

At this time the seller has emailed me the insurance website claim. It states that the insurance that he had purchased only refunds the cost of the item if the item never reach the destination. Not for damages. The lighthouses were shipped through Canada Post.

Now about the Seller. What do I believe he is up to?
I check all the broken pieces in the box and they seem to be accountable.
My belief about the seller is he isn’t trying to use an insurance scam on me.

I believe the seller is an arrogant, self-righteous, know-it-all, inexperienced youth (early 20’s or less) that hopefully will get a dose of humility and will get stuck with the tab.

Daniel what is the seller's eBay ID so we can know enough to not bid on anything he offers for auction. I do considerable bidding on eBay and want to avoid this seller.

:rolleyes: Bob :rolleyes:

"ICanSellOnline"
out of ON Canada

Daniel, watch your timeframes for filing a claim with Visa (and with E-Bay for that matter). Don't let a long process with Paypal prevent you from following up with the other 2 because 30 or 60 days have lapsed. Perhaps, 2 or more claims going at the same time might be acceptable.

The advise I am following is to let pay pal do their thing. The credit company gives me 60 days from date of invoice which was March 15th.
I will at least give paypal till May 10th and then I will file with Credit card. My understanding if I get the credit card involed right away that they will take over and even have the right to cancel my account with Paypal. Why cancel Paypal until I see if they can fix the problem?

Their actual Id is (I Can Sell-Online) and they are out of Hamilton, ON, Canada and they currently have the following lighthouses for sale on eBay:

Buffalo NY Lighthouse, Marblehead OH Lighthouse, Portland, Breakwater ME Lighthouse,Great Captain Lighthouse and Cape Blanco, OH Lighthouse..

I noticed that there is tons of legalise about their procedures of sales and shipping but very little detail about the lighthouse listed.. They are an eBay middle man as far as I can tell, selling items for others..

http://icansell-online.com/pages/contact.htm

They also have a page in Chinese. Planning a franchise operation across Canada.

They have one of those automated operator that you pick the number for which subject you want to talk about. When I picked the number 5 which was about billing it automaticly hung up on me. I had to pick #1 which was, "how to place items on bid with them". Then I left message.

You suppose there is a BBB or similar in Ontario, eh? If so, why not get them involved? Didn't see anything on their site to indicate a membership, but BBB will often take on someone who is not a member.

They are getting paid in $US and paying their customer in $CAN - suppose the customer gets the benfit of the higher US $ or do they also get hosed? Too bad you can't figure out who their customer is because I bet they would like to know what is happening.

Just rendomly looking at some of their auctions, and the location was listed as Hamilton, Ontario, US. Didn't know it had moved....

"I believe the seller is an arrogant, self-righteous, know-it-all, inexperienced youth (early 20’s or less) that hopefully will get a dose of humility and will get stuck with the tab."

Agree with Daniel on the make-up of this seller. He's obviously not a businessperson, trying to build a customer base. Packaging and shipping takes a lot of effort and expense. Items like Harbour Lights need packing peanuts, bubble wrap, etc that cost good money. Your seller is only looking for the quick buck, and may not expect MOST customers to make the effort to come after him. He doesn't care about repeat customers assuming there'll always be more coming down the road. As far as the 3 days to get it back to him, that's IMPOSSIBLE! Air Parcel Post is 4-10 days to Canada from the US.

Also, agree with Rich on the comments about buying from Forum members, people that you know. I recently purchased a piece from Bob M. for one of my customers. Bob quoted me a price, my buyer accepted it, and the deal was all set. Never once did I have any thought that there would be a problem with the transaction. I know Bob is someone who cares more about the lighthouse pieces themselves than the money from the sale. Our customers know we are the same way. It's all about putting your trust in the right people.

It's when you go outside that realm that you deal with sellers like this guy. And, YES, honesty is still always the best policy. . . . . . Just something about a person like this that brings out that little evil streak we all have, wanting to see him pay for what he's done. . . . . You have to decide how far you're willing to go, to determine an outcome that you can live with.

In reading all of the above, I find the whole thing pretty disgraceful.
Where has common courtesty and decency gone?
As my dad used to say 'Do unto other as you would have them do to you'
Why does there have to be people in this world who are just out to make a buck no matter who it hurts?
Daaniel I wish you luck getting this resolved.
HCS

Daniel, I have a brother in law who lives 30 minutes from Hamilton. Is an address listed for the business? I know if I asked him, he would go there and see what type of business or person they are.....

Would he do any thing else???

Tom,

Tsk, tsk. (But I like the innuendo anyway.)

Sandy :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No, he wouldn't do anything just spy....and give intel. But it was a funny thought :p

The address and a picture is on his web page.
Shortcut attached above.
Your Brothern in law could go and say "HAY" from all of us.

Yeah, let him know all of us in the forums know all about him!! :p :p

More than likely, nothing you say or do will do anything to change this person's business practices. Hopefully, the fact this seller is known to the connected collectors of the CF will cost him some sales.

Unfortunately, some person down the line will be taken advantage of and will get screwed. We can't get the message out to everybody who might fall into this person's web of unscrupulous business practices.

:rolleyes: Bob :rolleyes:

Bob,
You are so right.
Some people just have no concience and will continue to do bad business.
HCS

Maybe he "Could make him an offer they couldn't refuse." No horseing around of course :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Chuck

Received a full refund from paypal.
But I did have to pay shipping to get the lighthouses back to seller.
So I spent $32 to get $149 back That was worth it to me. It was also the principle of the thing.

I am a definite paypal user from now on.
Thanks everyone for your support and emails of suggestions.

Thanks for the followup. I still think that the guy should have swallowed the shipping costs since he was hellbent to get the damaged goods back. Anyway, I'm glad it was resolved to your satisfaction.

Yes I agree with Grace, the guy should have eaten the shipping!
HCS

Returning the lighthouse was paypals requirements for me to get my money back. If I didn't return the lighthouses Paypal would have not given back my money.

You could have just thrown them in a box, Daniel... Oh wait that's what the seller did! Never mind.

You are probably not going to believe this but I actually wrapped each lighthouse with bubble wrap and repacked them with 3 times the crinkle paper. I just didn’t have the heart to let them be smashed up any more.

Should have gone ahead and compressed them, Daniel. Would have fit into a much smaller box and saved you on shipping. And, you know they wouldn't have been able to pull the same deal on another poor person.

Good idea Dave.
That would have served the seller right!
HCS

Daniel,

Good for you. You did the right thing. Turnabout is not fair play - even if it might feel good to do it.

Dennis

Hummm, I love Harbour Lights and I would never think about damaging one....

But if I had the opportunity to throw 3 already damaged ones back into a box I think that would make me feel pretty good! How often do you get the chance to "trash" a HL? ...Not very often.

Very interesting and sad story eventhough it has a good ending (except the shipping part). I'm sorry that Daniel had to go through this, but as a reader of the Collector Forum, I am greatful that this situation was brought to everone's attention that reads the Forums.

Let the "Buyer Beware", when it comes to buying on eBay. I guess it is safe to say that no one here on the Forums will be buying from this "loser".

Got that right, Chris! And, to boot, I think he is very aware of it by now!

Daniel, I understand perfectly; I would not have had the heart to allow them to be damaged any more. And just in case he really didn't know how to wrap collectibles properly (despite your instructions), maybe your wrapping will have taught him a much needed lesson.

I thought the same thing.
I even put in a note explaining how I packed the lighthouse with wrap and added all the extra paper.
I also said that this was my minimal packing job and if the lighthouses were not damaged I would have packed them allot better. I would have individually boxed them inside of a bigger box.