Any new scuttlebutt from Portland?

We're all waiting! Did anyone attending the regional at Portland get any information, or hear any rumors, as to what will be in the Harbour Lights future in 2007?

Bob

I agree with you Bob, waiting for information.

Lower production numbers, about 12 releases a year as I recall.

Wow!!! Only 12 new releases. Thats about half as many as this year.

I can't see how that helps HL lighthouse collecting.

Less varity is all it acheives. Only seems like it will be good for the collectors that have to have them all.

I believe that's about 12 Limited Editions.

We had 19 limited editions this year counting the:
Store event,
The regional event,
The society piece,
The free gift and
One anchor bay (I counted the white and red version as one)
(I also didn’t count the ELL since it was not sold to dealers by harbour lights)

I truly feel this is the right move by Harbour Lights. Fewer LE's releases, and smaller edition sizes, will eventually increase the overall collectible worth.

This will afford dealers an opportunity to build on their autoships to guarantee their faithful customers get the new releases. It may even keep current auto ship people on the lists longer because there will be fewer LE's to purchase, display, or store.

Let's face it, most of the auto ship people are probably old-timers who should be thinking more about down-sizing that building a larger collection.

Thanks to Jim Awrey, we know our beloved LE's are not what keeps the dealers going. It's John Q Public strolling in and grabbing a GLOW and LLOM, or whatever. The people who buy "giftware" far out number the faithful LE collectors, therefore, they generate more income for the dealers. Dealers need income to survive. Everything comes back to the bottom line in retail sales.

Bob

So are we talking 12 LE's including or not including Society piece, membership gift piece, store event piece, & regional event piece?

I believe that's inclusive.

Figure 2 event, 2 society, 1 Christmas. There's already been a rumor of 1 Fresnel so that would take up half the possible Limited Edition count.

How does this help the collector (someone has asked?) It can revitalize the collector base to some extent with smaller edition sizes by bringing back the 'thrill of the hunt'.

It helps the long-time collector because it slows down the outflow of funds and allows whatever space you still have left in your curios (or storage closet) to last a bit longer.

No word yet on whether the old policy of retiring pieces at the end of their third year of availability will continue or not.

This was instituted because of the large number of introductions in the late 1990s with large edition sizes. Dealers were carrying big inventories and they were not ordering the latest introductions when they came out. Over the last three years, edition sizes were significantly reduced.

No word on GLOW or Little Light counts for 2007.

I am really glad they will have fewer LE and agree with Bob. Too many is too hard on the pocketbook and lessens the value of collecting.
Judy

I like the idea of a smaller number of new additions. As I have stated before, if the low number of new additions being made are not what you are interested in or you just have to have a new lighthouse and there is nothing new you want, then maybe you will revisit some of the past offering. This helps the dealer in that it lowers his inventory and he then maybe will be willing to keep the the line or maintain his auto ship. I know for myself that one or two new lighthouses a year are not enough for me.

I am truely happy to hear this. Twelve a year including society, events and lenses will do wonders for my budget, display room and desire to continue collecting. Anybody that wants more then 12 can look to the past at some of the retired pieces. This decision should also help to bring back the secondary market a little.

I think this only goes to show the new owner(s) ARE listening to the collectors by reducing the new releases.

I think Don should be applauded for this!!!

In the latest announcement we received from Harbour Lights on pieces that will be retiring on 12/31/2006, two pieces that had been available for over 3 years, and will NOT be retiring, are Alki Point, WA and Anclote Key, FL.

Jim

I'm trying to be open minded with those who support less LE's, but still think less LE's mean less variety. Less variety means less possible newbie's getting hooked on lighthouse collecting. And less variety of Lights for those who only collect from certain areas.

I fully agree with smaller addition sizes. This will help keep the collectable value up.

As for filling your collecting need with collecting some of the older one, what if you've already caught up with them?

Don't want to keep rocking the boat with my disagreement on less LE's. So I'm going to shut up and see how the next year or two pan out.

Hey if 3 or 4 of the 12 are what I'm looking for.

Any hints on what next years collector society pieces will be? How about the store or regional event pieces?

This is when you enter the world of collecting variations.

I feel like Tony Snow.

I got a note from Don Devine today. Clarifying his comments at the regional. The lower edition sizes - definitely. The number of limited editions to expect (12) does NOT include the society, fresnel, Christmas or event pieces.

Apologies for the confusion.

Sounds like the "Lighthouse of the Month Club" with a few specialty items sold on the side. It's all fine with me. I'm in it for the long run.

Bob

Standard limited editions-----12
Christmas--------------------1
Store event------------------1
Regional event---------------1
Society event----------------1
Free gift--------------------1
Fresnel lens-----------------1

Total-----------------------18

Okay they are going to produce one less a year.
Is this something note worthy?
What if they do an Anchor bay will that be part of the 12 or would that make 19?

Hey, Dan? Do you know the most HL LE's ever produced in one year? I'm sure many of our fellow CF members would be interested in that number.

It seems a couple of dozen may be the amount. Do you have those figures?

Bob

Probably 1997 with 28 L.E. including the Anchor Bay.
31 if you included the two reunion pieces and the Christmas ornament.

Daniel,

Is this the new math where 28 + 2 = 31 ?

Dennis

I made the correction.
I left off the Christmas ornament.
I decided to delete the Christmas ornament and forgot to take it out of the total.

Fewer LE's will encourage me to begin collecting again. I have been on a hiatus for the past two years as the HL franchise became confused about their direction. I stopped buying new editions when they appeared on Ebay at 30% below retail within weeks of introduction. Doesn't make any sense from a collecting (or esthetic) point of view to purchase items at retail that are worth much less days later. Reminds me of the calculus of a new car purchase!

I believe this is my cue.

Because of the dramatic drop in the sales of Harbour Lights, many Harbour Lights "dealers" have felt that it's OK to move their inventory on e-bay at drastically-reduced prices. This is in complete violation of the agreement that we sign with Harbour Lights, to NEVER sell below suggested retail price. These dealers don't want to lose their "standing orders (autoship pieces)" with Harbour Lights, in case they get a piece that's local to their area. They cash in on that local piece, and dump the rest of their stock on e-bay. They'd rather make a few dollars than sit on the inventory.

Take a look on e-bay and search through the 8-10 pages of Harbour Lights. You'll see several Conanicut, Sullivan's Island Range, Point Sur, Lime Kiln and Point Fermin pieces. These are obviously dealers. What collector in their right mind would purchase Conanicut for $99, and then sell it a few days later for $60?

So, what's the problem with all of this? I'm not here to criticize anyone for purchasing these pieces on e-bay. BUT, this will be the final demise of the dealer network if this is allowed to continue. It seems that new collectors, in their desire to quickly build up their collection, are turning to e-bay, instead of trying to locate a dealer. This is not a problem for the older, long-retired pieces. BUT, when a brand new release is sold on e-bay, it's just one more nail in our coffin. Yes, you're getting a great bargain, but is it worth the damage it's doing to "legitimate" dealers?

How do you stop this? Most of these dealers are smart enough not to include the flag number of the piece when they put it on e-bay. With the flag number, Harbour Lights can trace that piece directly to them.

What you can do is this - Go ahead and purchase one of these "new releases" on e-bay, if you want it for your collection. When you receive the piece, send the flag # (with a note saying that you purchased it on e-bay) to Tony Constantino
at Harbour Lights:

tconstantino@harbourlights.com

Tony is very upset about the number of new pieces that I told him were on e-bay. We have already caught one large "southern" dealer, who will no longer be getting shipments from Harbour Lights.
Buy those pieces on E-bay, and we'll eliminate the "bad" dealers, one at a time!

We're just "rookies" in this business, both as dealers and collectors. Maybe some of the "veteran" collectors in CF can impress upon the newcomers the importance of establishing a dealer/customer relationship with someone in their area. Heck, I'd rather see you order from our rival, Lighthouse Depot, than buy it on E-bay.

Jim

You are sure right about the new models on ebay.
But this is nothing new. This has been going on since 1998. John has mentioned several times on this forum how HL was trying to catch "HL Dealers Dumping on ebay". I Talked to Bill Younger in Sept 2003 about it and he informed me that they had people that would follow up on specious sellers on ebay. However he said many of the dealers were still continuously getting away with it and HL didn’t know how to stop it.

Paul Brady and others started preaching in 98 and 99 to not buy new models on ebay but from your local dealers. But as time has past and ebay has become such an excepted way of life that the warnings were falling on death ears and the preaching has stopped.

Jim, I am glad you brought this subject back up to remind collectors again that ebay should mainly be used for those hard to find retired pieces, not for new releases and we all should help to put a end to "HL Dealers Dumping on ebay"


Ebay prices affecting collection value-Feb1998

Nicely said Jim! I have bought all my lighthouses from dealers I'm proud to say. I have been tempted over the years to use Ebay but bad prior experiences with other items have stopped me. I've also had offers from other dealers to switch from my dealer that I have been using since 1995 for lower numbers but have resisted. My dealer takes care of me and that is what is important. Should I have to change because of my dealer dropping the line or just going to regional pieces I will change but until then I'm in for the duration.

I have used secondary markets, the Forums, dealers giving up the ghost and other dealers to buy retired pieces or one of a kind issues but have stayed away from the Ebay dumpers. It's hard to turn down a deeply discounted piece but I'd much rather pay extra and keep the honest dealers in business.

Excellent words of wisdom! I never thought of the selling of recent released pieces on eBay until I read Jim's post. We recognize dealer dumping which in some cases must be frustrating for dealers who play by the rules. Will the "new" Harbour Lights be able to control the rule-breakers (RB's)?

Is very easy to sit back and judge those we feel are doing wrong. The RB's are fighting for survival in the tough retail world. They figure making $10 three times now is better than making $30 one time at a later date. It's six of one, and a half dozen of another. Unfortunately, they are hurting those who try to maintain what is right and keep this fine collectible just that, collectible.

Although I scan eBay on a daily basis, I'm looking for older and maybe a rare piece to be sold at a bargain. I support my dealer with my auto ship of all new LE's and AB's. I do not purchase GLOW's. I guess this is how I keep the thrill of the hunt going in my mind.

There's a method to my madness. You see, I'm still a believer. I do believe that Harbour Lights will arise from the bad economy collectible industry ashes to once again regain its place in popularity amongst the expendible cash crowd. When it does, I'll be ready! I have approximately 400, or maybe more, HL's in stock. I won't know exactly what I have until I do a complete inventory. Among this inventory are many low flag#'s, AP's, and lightning rod pieces. I've taken care of quite a few collectors with pieces they would never be able to find at a dealer.

Let me set the record straight. This is a hobby for me, this buying and selling thing. I do not expect to get rich off it. I find it fun to just be involved in the secondary market game. I do not plan on leaving my HL's to anyone in the family because there's no real interest lying there. I do not plan on tucking them into my coffin because there won't be any room unless they bury me in a storage pod.

Bob is my name, and buying and selling to me is a game!

Bob

Thanks folks, for your input.

So are we, and any "legitimate" dealer that has kept the Harbour Lights line. We're all struggling to ride out these tough times, in the hope that things will recover. Those dealers not willing to ride it out are dumping their pieces on E-bay.

The way to stop them is as I mentioned above. All you need is the number of piece to track down the dealer. Many of these dealers probably have an employee (or friend) photograph the pieces and ship them as they are sold, from their home address. They probably think that a different "shipping address," other than their store address, will keep them from being linked to the piece. Uh . . . No! The number of the piece will always link them to the sale. Other obvious signs are that the pieces all appear very closely together on the E-bay list of Harbour Lights for sale, and the photography background is the same. Check a week later, and you'll recognize the photography background, meaning the same dealer is selling a second set of these new pieces. The dealer we caught was selling piece #122 one week, and then #123 the next week.

It's just a question of whether Harbour Lights thinks this is a serious enough problem and wants to stop them. Stopping them means losing more dealers, which will, in the short term, hurt Harbour Lights. That's the last thing Harbour Lights needs right now.

We say, go ahead, buy a discounted piece, and turn them in to Tony Constantino. Let's get rid of these dealers that may cause us all to lose Harbour Lights.

Jim

Thanks for your perspective, Jim. It is always helpful to get your viewpoint from the dealer and collector standpoint. United we can accomplish the end goal of keeping dealers in business and revitalizing HL. Rich is right that it is hard to pass up the discounts but, in the long run, we will all be better off. Don needs our help to get HL going again and certainly this is one way of doing it.

Love it!!

When I think about getting HL going again, I wonder about the market Don is going for. Is it US collectors only? Or do HL need to sell internationally too? And if so, what are they doing to make life easier for us collectors abroad?

We just bought 15 LLs from eBay. They were listed here in the UK and we could not resist the discounted price. And of course there were no international postage issues (like customs costs etc.)

But I do buy on eBay from the US too. EBay dealers in general are MUCH more co-operative when it comes to labelling items on customs forms.

Example: If I buy a LL for $16.95 and pay the shipping from the US, the customs label says it is a gift, I pay NO customs cost here. GREAT
If the customs label does not mark it as a gift, I pay around $3.00 customs AND a little over $9.00 to our post office as a fee for the priveledge of collecting the payment on teh customes office's behalf. That - to me - is prohibitive!
And of course, if I buy a HL, the cost escalates with the value of the piece.

If Don is after international collectors, maybe he should think about allowing his staff to mark customs labels accordingly?

Just a thought! Because I think these beautiful figures should be awaylabel EVERYWHERE!

If I can chime in...I think that in order to compete against e-bay...HL could offer new products online at a slightly higher price than what a dealer gets it for. If I really wanted a piece...I would buy it online vs ebay as I hate taking risks on ebay with people I don't know and possibly get gouged on shipping costs.
Especially on pieces that cost mucho $$$.


Does that sound like a reasonable idea?

BB

Interesting discussion. I appreciate Jim's point of view because I think the "demise of dealers" has already occurred. Because no action was taken to hold dealers accountable for their Ebay dumping, the harbourlight franchise is fractured. I appreciate Jim's integrity by adhering to his agreement with HL. On the other hand, the truth is that most dealers are driven by the fast buck and have no compunction about undercutting the "collecting philosophy". I have come to conclusion that most dealers fabricate a commitment to lighthouse collecting when in fact collecting to them is simply a buzzword for "fast cash". Only if the dealer is held accountable for their bad behavior can HL rise from the ashes.

I stopped at a particular gift shop in the Upper Penninsula on our way home from vacation because I knew that she was a Harbour Lights dealer. She always has a good selection to choose from...so stopped to add to my collection!
She had a sign that all HLs were 30% off.

I thought I was so lucky to run into such a sale,but during our conversation I found out she was getting rid of ALL her HLs. She said she would no longer be a dealer because the bottom had dropped out of the collectibles. Ebay came up and she agreed that it really did hurt, especially the dumping.

She then went on to tell me that 2 women came in and sat all day long buying just about everything that she had left. She didn't know if they were collectors or were there scarfing them up to sell on ebay.

I got some nice pieces at a good price,but said that I don't have that to look forward to any longer when we go up there to visit!

It is a great shame, that the dealer network is in such trouble.

We have the problem that there is no reputable dealer left here. I contacted one of the three dealers on the Harbour Lights list. He claimed that the LLOMs did not exsist and he spoke hardly any English. And he was listed as a redemption dealer So we are stuck and have to buy on eBay.

I very much agree with Jim's request to the veterans. Ok Jim - there is no dealer in our area. Would you "deal" with us even though we are in the UK? Please get in touch, if you would!

Margret, here's Jim's store site
Cape Annie\'s
Within this, you will find a phone number, mailing address (snail) and email.

Judy

Thanks Judy! We'll have a look there!

I really hate to see the dealers disappear. We use to get a list of dealers throughout the country and I definitely have used many over the years. I especially appreciate the dealers that do not charge shipping. That is where Lighthouse Depot gets too costly. If H.L. doesn't generate a list anymore maybe we could do that through the Forums as a way to support our dealers.
Judy

You can generate a list state by state fairly easily by using the 'find a dealer' link on the HL web page and then printing it out.

As you display each state, you can drag your mouse across the entire list, copy to your clipboard and paste that list into Excel.

That will allow you to make up a spreadsheet of just certain states you plan to be visiting on a trip.

The links to dealers emails and websites are also retained in Excel.